ESL (English as Second Language) writers - your experiences?

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Tsu Dho Nimh

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If there is ever to be such a course, the instructors would need to work with students individually at least some of the time, to identify patterns of errors. The big question, of course, is whether the ESL writers who take such a course would be working towards old-fashioned publication or not.

Even if they are only writing memos and manuals for a multi-national corporation, it's important.

If you know the native language, you can quickly point out the pattern of errors, because certain things have a strong carryover into the next language - Dutch, Spanish, and Hindi writers do not make the same errors.
 

Gray Rose

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Thanks guys for your wonderful input :)

And sorry for derailing your thread, Rose. :2angel:
Sweetie, you're not derailing, you are adding to the discussion!

I teach an ESL Creative Writing class. I also tutor Grade twelve students.

I find tense is the hardest for them to master. They also have a tendency to mix up ing, ed, etc. She start to do the dishes instead of started. We were go to the beach instead of going.

Basically the key is patience and practice.
The topics I cover are the basics. Verbs, adjectives, past and present, fragmented sentences etc. We do a variety of writing exercises. I'm also a big fan of the less is more style.

Ohhh, thank you! I am happy there are classes out there. If you have a spare moment, please consider writing an article on ESL creative writing pedagogy. There's almost nothing I could find on the topic.

Is there a certain level of students who still have problems but you have to kick them out because their level is too high? What do you want your students to achieve at the end of the class?

Tense, especially the continuous and perfect aspects. G

- Don't try to write above your ability. Doesn't work. But do push your limits on occasion, else you won't improve.

Tense is emerging as a common problem for ESL writers here, this is very interesting; I am struggling with this myself. My biggest problem is the pluperfect. "Had" just pops up in wrong places for me.

Don't try to write above your ability: but how do you figure out where your ceiling is? I keep pushing myself to do new things, because if I stay within my comfort zone I will never improve. I will forever be writing 1st person narratives of linguistic and/or cultural outsiders. This is a fun theme but I don't want to write myself into a corner, I am going to do 3rd person, and a completely different theme for my next story.

Question: Why do you write in English at all?

It is a relief, really, to be able to write in English. As a native speaker of a number of languages (not English) I was struggling most of my teens and early twenties with trying to choose a language to write in. I felt that all three were insufficient. Now that I have lived in the US for six years and learned a lot from my non-fiction writing, I feel that English is a natural choice. I could do Russian too, I suppose, but I read mostly in English in my genre. The market is also much bigger and better in English, and I feel that I should not be wasting my time unless I am planning to publish. This is a very subjective opinion and one that people would disagree with; I certainly do not imply that it's useless to write and not sell. However, my personal feeling is that if I am not going for publication, I should instead be working on advancing the state of knowledge. :)
 
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Gray Rose

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Even if they are only writing memos and manuals for a multi-national corporation, it's important.

If you know the native language, you can quickly point out the pattern of errors, because certain things have a strong carryover into the next language - Dutch, Spanish, and Hindi writers do not make the same errors.

Yes, true, but it is very much a question of enrollment. You will not find a teacher who knows all of those languages, and limiting the course to only one kind of speaker is VERY problematic - there are not enough students, even in a huge university like mine, which has tons of non-native speakers. A class of twenty will have a mix of languages in it; a class of four will not be offered again next year. And anyway, it is hard to impossible to find and train teachers in ALL those languages. It makes more sense, IMHO, to train a small number of professors who would make up a syllabus that'd work across languages.


And I just wanted to make sure - my questions about curriculum design are purely academic: I am very unlikely to ever teach such a course, and not qualified anyway :)
 

Dawnstorm

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Don't try to write above your ability: but how do you figure out where your ceiling is? I keep pushing myself to do new things, because if I stay within my comfort zone I will never improve. I will forever be writing 1st person narratives of linguistic and/or cultural outsiders. This is a fun theme but I don't want to write myself into a corner, I am going to do 3rd person, and a completely different theme for my next story.

What I really meant, I suppose, is: be patient. If certain grammatical structures are confusing you, don't fret. Avoid them. Focus on your strengths. But every now and then add one. Or when you're not writing, go over your writings and see if you can make the simple sentences more complex (or something like that). Use your writings to learn the language, but don't take the fun out of writing, by trying to achieve what you're not yet up to. Language proficiency improves gradually. You can't force it.

An example: If the pluperfect confuses you, don't worry about it. Try to centre your (current) style around sentences that you feel comfortable with. If you're consciously trying to practise the pluperfect while writing ("writing above your - current - ability") you probably won't have much fun writing, and other aspects (aspects that don't normally give you trouble - in the case of pluperfect probably simple past tense) will suffer. The result is frustration. You'll probably neither learn anything nor have fun writing. A waste of time.

Now, if you keep your writing simple, i.e. if you avoid situations which you're not comfortable with, you can go back later and try to see what you could have done. This will help you learn, as you're both motivated to do better, and as you see that you haven't done all that badly.

I don't how ESL textbooks look in other countries; but most of ours are full of out-of-context excercises, that reduce language to formulae.

For example, they'd have:

I _____ never _____ her. (meet)

You'll have to fill in either:

a) I have never met her.

or

b) I [slot empty] never met her.

The textbook will tell you that (a) is correct, and (b) isn't, because that's how the excercise is built. "Never" is supposed to be present perfect marker. Nobody tells you that "I never met her," is perfectly fine, if you're talking about a limited time period in the past, or if you don't ever expect to meet her again (because she's dead, or because she's moved away).

So, these excercises routinely cause lots of confusion when you're confronted with real language, where sentences like "I never met her," aren't infrequent. The thing is, when you're uncomfortable with certain aspects of language, and when you're confused in your text, you tend to fall back on exercise-mode. You're likely to trust the excercise more than your instict and change "I never met her," to "I have never met her," (because that was correct in the context free excercise). The mistake arises out of faulty rule application.

Even people who know English can get confused by excercise mode: In English class, we once listened to certain songs from Jesus Christ Superstar. In one of the songs, there's the line "Try not to worry". The teacher said this was incorrect. It should have been "Don't try to worry." I had to correct him that the two sentences aren't equivalent. He knew, of course (and didn't make such stupid mistakes in speech or writing, normally). It's "rule interference". Class-room mode translated "too advanced" into "wrong".

(Edit mode is similar to classroom mode. I'm capable of adding the most stupid mistakes in an edit. Heh.)

Basically, don't write above your ability could be translated as don't try to apply rules that confuse you just because you think you should.

As a native speaker of a number of languages (not English) I was struggling most of my teens and early twenties with trying to choose a language to write in.

Interesting. I've been exposed to two languages, too, in my childhood (German and Croatian). That could come into it; a retreat onto neutral ground. I never really thought of that. Something to think about, thanks. :)
 

Wraith

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Dawnstorm said:
An example: If the pluperfect confuses you, don't worry about it. Try to centre your (current) style around sentences that you feel comfortable with. If you're consciously trying to practise the pluperfect while writing ("writing above your - current - ability") you probably won't have much fun writing, and other aspects (aspects that don't normally give you trouble - in the case of pluperfect probably simple past tense) will suffer. The result is frustration. You'll probably neither learn anything nor have fun writing. A waste of time.
I agree. But I think that when writing, you should leave grammar out altogether. Try to say what you mean in the most accurate way possible, if it's full of mistakes betas will notice and correct them, and you'll keep the purest meaning you had in mind.
Gray_Rose said:
Don't try to write above your ability: but how do you figure out where your ceiling is? I keep pushing myself to do new things, because if I stay within my comfort zone I will never improve. I will forever be writing 1st person narratives of linguistic and/or cultural outsiders. This is a fun theme but I don't want to write myself into a corner, I am going to do 3rd person, and a completely different theme for my next story.
As far as grammar goes, I don't think there's a ceiling - imo, avoiding certain structures can hurt your writing. Better write mistakes and correct later than stick to simple (like avoiding pluperfect. You may have trouble with it but the story still needs it.) And even if there is a ceiling in other areas of language, you still need, and naturally want to explore, and that's how you learn. I can understand you very well.
Tense is emerging as a common problem for ESL writers here, this is very interesting; I am struggling with this myself. My biggest problem is the pluperfect. "Had" just pops up in wrong places for me.
It must be difficult to grasp if Russian only has one past tense (that sounds wonderfully free and also strange :D); Romanian has a pluperfect and also other tenses that English doesn't have, but nothing like past perfect, for example, and it takes some time to learn those in relation to each other.
 

ghost

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Ohhh, thank you! I am happy there are classes out there. If you have a spare moment, please consider writing an article on ESL creative writing pedagogy. There's almost nothing I could find on the topic.

:)

I hate to admit it but it's not a very popular class and I don't get to teach it very often. Most ESL students are intimidated at the idea of writing a story.
However, no student would ever be kicked from my class. It's an adult class and they are paying to be there. And I don't judge them on their storytelling ability, it's all about the writing.

Wish I could be more helpful.
 

Dawnstorm

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But I think that when writing, you should leave grammar out altogether.

Certainly, if you can. The thing is, learning a second a language is different from refining your first. When you're just starting out writing stories in a foreign language chances are, you'll run up against thoughts that require a command of grammar you don't yet have. You're then in the twilight zone between two languages. Early on, grammar is topicalised by default. That's different if you only start to write stories once your English is good enough that your language intuition has next to no "holes". But often writing stories is part of building up the intuition native speakers take for granted. (It's the flip side of reading, just as talking is the flipside of listening.)

(Btw, I found that there topics in English Grammar that cause native speakers more problems than they ever did me. Who/whom is one example: German still has subject/object/indirect object inflection with all nouns, adjectives and pronouns. So the who/whom distinction comes naturally.)
 

susanabra

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I'm not an ESL writer, since English is my native tongue, but I have found this discussion fascinating, because I recognize so many of the experiences and frustrations described here. I have lived in Denmark since 1980 (since I was 22), so my daily life is in Danish, but I write poetry in both languages. My greatest ambition is to be able to write between the two languages, no matter which vocabulary and grammar I happen to be using.
 

Gray Rose

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I'm not an ESL writer, since English is my native tongue, but I have found this discussion fascinating, because I recognize so many of the experiences and frustrations described here. I have lived in Denmark since 1980 (since I was 22), so my daily life is in Danish, but I write poetry in both languages. My greatest ambition is to be able to write between the two languages, no matter which vocabulary and grammar I happen to be using.

You mean, write bilingually, i.e. one text that has both languages? That's very interesting; I've seen it done a bit in poetry here and there, but I'd love to see more!
 

susanabra

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No, Gray Rose, I don't write a single text in both languages at once, although I've done parallel texts in Danish and English. Most Danes speak English, while very few English speakers speak Danish, but Danish is pretty close to the Norse language that went into the development of Modern English. I've found that the language codes are partially transferrable, i. e., that I can use the Danish codes in English and vice versa. Doing that 'shakes up' both languages, and the thought patterns of my audience, which adds some interesting perspectives and nuances to my poetry.
 

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If anyone's interested in a different perspective, I'm a native English speaker who has attempted a bit of writing in a second language (Spanish). Tenses that don't exist or exist only in a much more limited way were my biggest problem--not so much how to use them as when; I would have to figure it out again, because it's been too long, but I had an elaborate system based on translating to a tense from phrases like "would have been for a while"--followed closely by vocabulary. The two combined to give me a lot of "how do I even begin to say this?" moments.

I don't know how typical this is of language learners but I'll throw it out there--when I was actively studying Spanish, I found that Spanish grammar changed the way I wrote in English. For example, I would use "that" in places where it was optional (and perhaps a bit stuffy) in English but mandatory in Spanish.
 

dragonmedley

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French is my first language, and I work as a translator.

When I write my stories, I do so in English because I'm into fantasy/science fiction. Such novels are most of the time written in English. In French, these genres are found in the bandes dessinées, France/Belgium comics, not in novel form (unless translated). Since I'm not an artist, and I haven't even thought of writing for comics, novels in English it is.

My biggest problem is the possessive; saying "Christine's eyes" isn't that obvious to me. In French, you'd write "the eyes of Christine". The 's is inexistant. So I sometimes end up with long-winded sentences that can be thankfully shortened with the 's.

Other than that, I tend to mimick the French sentence structure when I translate from French to English (which I don't do often - the entire office knows about it when I do, 'cause I complain loud and clear about it!).

I will think of a word in French - and of course I just can't come up with the English one - so I look it up. I right away know if it'll fit or not because I read a lot. I did all my schooling, including university, in French (I studied literature, not translation, oddly enough). Any and all English writing skills I have are due to my reading addiction.

Would I rewrite - notice I didn't say translate - my novels in French myself? Yes, I would. I think it would allow me to touch another dimension of my stories!
 

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So many interesting takes on this. And all that talk about SF/F being mainly English reminds me, there's practically no genre lit in Romanian. There's a pretty well-known mystery author and some thrillers but not much more I know of. The bestselling authors are all literary. Still, I think there'd be a place for good Romanian fantasy/whatever else and I expect it will develop over time.
ebrillblaides said:
I don't know how typical this is of language learners but I'll throw it out there--when I was actively studying Spanish, I found that Spanish grammar changed the way I wrote in English. For example, I would use "that" in places where it was optional (and perhaps a bit stuffy) in English but mandatory in Spanish.
That's interesting, and I can understand it. For example, I noticed that it's not a good idea to read in English while I'm working on something in Romanian, because it gets hard to phrase things in my language and it also begins to look funny when I try to write it. Strange. And more similar to your example, I caught myself saying stuff like 'crying your eyes out' in Romanian, which of course doesn't make any sense - especially the structure. Sometimes it just seems that English has the fastest way to put it, and I get it all mixed up. :D
 

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Hi! I am new to the forum and looking for post related to ESL, etc. I found this one and wanted to have my input.

1) I have a hard time with commas, semi colons, punctuation in general. I tend to write very long phrases and don't know how to punctuate them or connect them. It really confusess the writer. And of course some verbs as well.
2) My advice is to read a lot of books and to read aloud what you have written.
3) I would like a workshop to focus on how to deal with those words that have no translation. What do you put instead? How do you translate the "feeling" of a particular word?
Thanks!
 

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Oooh, interesting thread! Let's see.

I'm of Greek origin. I started learning English at the age of five. For the last eight years I've been living in the UK, where I've studied, and worked, and I'm now doing a PhD in creative writing.

I have WIPs both in Greek and in English. Like Ray, I consider it almost a mother tongue-- or at least I consider myself a quarter to bilingual or something. :D I know the language's conventions, its slang, its feel and its colours. I even dream in English now. So it comes natural.

There are still times of course that I get lost in translation. For example, I've written in a short story that N. 'sank' in the seat, while I should have written 'plopped' as it was later indicated to me. In any case, the good proofreader is my best friend, and this would be the case even if I were native English.

That triggers another question: Would you rather translate your novels yourself, or have them translated (with or without involvement)?

No. I've found out that it's easier to rewrite the whole thing in Greek or English accordingly, than try to translate one from another. Often a trained translator knows how to work with words in a way very different to that of a writer. Just because I may be writing good fictional prose doesn't mean I'm able to translate it equally well, conveying all the richness and colours and feelings to another language.

That is pretty much the phenomenom of the globalization in English-speaking countries

I speak five four languages: Greek, English, French (oh, the grammar horror!) and Spanish (I took German in Uni. Then I forgot all about it. All I can do know is order beer, sausages and say how wonderful the world is. This can keep me out of trouble and save me from starvation I guess, but is not good for much else...)

Spanish is the only one of those languages I didn't have the time to get a degree/language certificate for. Yet I speak it. Why? Because I got OBSESSED with the Spanish and Latin American culture. I'm now a Greek living in the UK that listens to Spanish/Latin American pop/folk rock almost exclusively. Reads Spanish books. Hunts for Spanish videos in the internet. Whatever. Honestly, if you LOVE it, it loves you back.

This is what language is all about. You need to understand how it works, both in juxtaposition to your mother tongue, and on its own accord. I've never been brilliant in science but languages, oh, I LOVED learning them. It's music. It's art. It's another kind of science too.
 

Eddyz Aquila

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Me! Me! I'm an ESL as well. Started off when I was four in kindergarten but I've been speaking it daily for the past 3 years because I've been living in a different country. I'm a native speaker of Romanian but I didn't find learning English difficult even though many things in English do not make any sense in my own mother tongue.

Right now I think in both, but I have to admit English comes easier. Many times I struggle with the grammar of my Romanian, so it is somewhat annoying :D

Otherwise, when I write words come in both so I have to use google translate whenever I can't figure out the real word.
 

juliatheswede

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I write articles for demandstudios.com. While you don't make tons of money doing those, you do become a better writer much faster because they have great copy editors who edit/re-write your stuff when needed. They have a feature called "track changes" in which you can see all changes made to your articles. I've become a much better writer -- in English -- because of this. I know this is non-fiction, not fiction. However, it still carries over to your fiction writing. IMO, a professional/good writer is proficient at all types of writing.
 
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