Ellora's Cave Publishing, Inc.

My god, I'm having Triskelion flashbacks.

This was my first thought as well. Here we go again. I hope it doesn't happen, though.

This is certainly a situation to keep an eye on, yes, and to be concerned about or at least aware of. But I doubt it's a Triskelion-style overnight meltdown. Unlike Trisk, EC was actually very profitable before they went into print.

I'm not saying it won't happen, just that I don't believe EC is circling the drain quite yet.

Okay, I'll reword.

Done.

Although, I have to wonder (along with DA) how EC expects to collect if they win, seeing as how far in the hole Borders already is.

Borders has got what $435m of debt? Even if EC wins surely they'll be way, way at the back of the queue?

Crikey have you seen the Owner's postings on the Dear Author thread? I think it would have been much better if EC maintained a dignified silence on this, and didn't go posting on reader blogs.

It's all legal baiting and nothing more to try and get Borders to back off on their policy. In Canada we have Chapters/Indigo - big box book stores blow.

DecemberQuinn said:

I think it's a little premature to say "It's not looking too good..."

This is certainly a situation to keep an eye on, yes, and to be concerned about or at least aware of. But I doubt it's a Triskelion-style overnight meltdown.

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I agree, Quinny. I think J-J freaked at their huge returns, as most new publishers do, and realized they are now in serious arrears and are looking for someone to blame rather than looking in the mirror. The lawsuit is BS, but that isn't going to help their bottom line. They're going to need a bailout in order to pay their distributor back.

Unlike Trisk, EC was actually very profitable before they went into print.

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The problem is that e-publishing is way different from the print world and operates under a different business and promotional plan. I've seen a number of small publishers storm to get a gazillion books on the shelves and forget that every one of those books are dependent upon strong marketing and author promotion that will create demand. Frankly, tho I can't prove it, I suspect this is exactly what is plaguing Kunati as well, given the plethora of insider info I've received.

Saskatoonistan said:

It's all legal baiting and nothing more to try and get Borders to back off on their policy. In Canada we have Chapters/Indigo - big box book stores blow.

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This was my thought as well. Either that or it's a precaution against Borders' possible bankruptcy; making sure their claim is in before the filing.

That is pure conjecture on my part. I know next to nothing about bankruptcy in general and absolutely nothing about this case in particular.

Saskatoonistan said:

It's all legal baiting and nothing more to try and get Borders to back off on their policy.

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What policy? See, that's the problem with this lawsuit. They're claiming that Borders (a pathetically poorly run enterprise) is ordering huge numbers of books on purpose, and colluding with B&T, and it's bogus. No genre buyer orders gajillions of books willy nilly because it bites into their seasonal budget. Orders are placed based on what those genre buyers feel will realistically sell.It's the publisher's job to analyze whether that PO is too high. They failed to do this and got slammed with huge returns. Now they're looking for someone to blame.

This is a nuisance suit. Those who deal with selling books every day see J-J as hackers. Their tribulations were absolutely preventable. We and many other small presses are living proof of that.

I've felt for a while that EC was kinda...I don't know, off? It's just the little things (and some birdies in my ear). Lots of people getting royalty checks under $100. Huge amounts of new books put out every month, with very little focus on author development. Hackneyed cover design, when other epubs are blowing them out of the water (helloooo, LooseId!). Typos and bad editing all over the place in their print stuff, along with some AWFUL stories that should have never made it to print (to me and some others, EC has become the go-to place for TSTL heroines).

One big thing, though? The fact that there's no new calendar. I know, I know...I'm not saying it because of my love of the meatheads inside, but because the EC calendar has been something that was a standard marketing tool. But...well, you don't give away calendars for 2009 at just 2009 RT. Makes no sense. They either don't have it all together, or can't afford to pay the guys to do it. It was something that should have been out in the fall of 2008.

It's just the little things. Maybe I'm nuts.

That thread's got a bit of hostility running through it, eh? Yikes...

Yeah - I took back my words - it is a bit premature and I hope it stays that way. I'd hate to see another publisher go the way of Trisk.

DecemberQuinn said:

This was my thought as well. Either that or it's a precaution against Borders' possible bankruptcy; making sure their claim is in before the filing.

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If that is the strategy, the EC management is hopelessly mistaken about how business negotiations work, and/or even more hopelessly mistaken about how bankruptcy settlements work.

And the "Dear Author" stuff is mind-blowing. Mind-blowing.

It's something to behold. Yeah, there are a lot of anons, but when the anons have common stories, and you have actual NAMED posters backing it up...eeek.

I think there's enough corroboration (assuming most anons are individual anons, of course) plus the publisher's response, to think there's definitely something to the anon complaints. Especially considering some are backed up by not-so-anon complaints.

Although EC's ebook division is quite profitable, I have multiple contacts in the book trade (some of them my former coworkers when I worked directly w/ Baker & Taylor back when I was an acquisitions librarian) that they are absolutely losing their shirts (and their pants, and their underwear) on their badly mismanaged print division. I don't know what the actual numbers are, of course, but I suspect the losses on their print side could indeed be sucking up a decent chunk of their ebook profits. Hopefully not enough to put them under, but in this economy, anything's possible.

I had an opportunity to be published by them that I chose not to pursue because of this, and am instead working with another epublisher that while it is a startup, is run by people with decades of combined experience in traditional publishing.

I think EC made a big mistake when they a) not only took on the costs of printing/publishing their print books themselves (instead of selling print rights to an established print publisher), they b) refused to work with Ingram/B&T and tried to distribute the books themselves. That's just nuts. No wonder bookstores stopped working w/ them.

I agree, this is a nuisance suit. ANd even if it weren't, when Borders files bankruptcy, they would have no claim as a creditor unless there was a judgement already entered against Borders in their favor. And judgements are frequently discharged in US bankruptcies---one of the No. 1 reasons for filing them, in fact.

And people wonder why I'm not rushing Shadowfire Press into doing print. I know better. I used to run a small press print zine back in the day. There were no returns to deal with, but selling out issues wasn't easy then, and I don't imagine selling out print runs on books is any easier now.

I was in our local Barnes and Noble the other day and did see three or four EC books on the shelves, but I recall seeing a much larger number of their books on shelves a year ago.

I notice there is now a comment about the last royalty payment being late on the DA thread.

priceless1 said:

I agree, Quinny. I think J-J freaked at their huge returns, as most new publishers do, and realized they are now in serious arrears and are looking for someone to blame rather than looking in the mirror. The lawsuit is BS, but that isn't going to help their bottom line. They're going to need a bailout in order to pay their distributor back.

The problem is that e-publishing is way different from the print world and operates under a different business and promotional plan. I've seen a number of small publishers storm to get a gazillion books on the shelves and forget that every one of those books are dependent upon strong marketing and author promotion that will create demand. Frankly, tho I can't prove it, I suspect this is exactly what is plaguing Kunati as well, given the plethora of insider info I've received.

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Oh, absolutely.

I do want to make clear I wasn't saying this wasn't a situation to watch or that it doesn't concern me, or being an "EC is great and you don't know what you're talking about" cheerleader. I don't know what the situation is, at all.

All I do know is my October release (which was technically November as it came out after the royalty period had ended) was my most successful solo release ever, and my December sales were quite good too. So there is money coming in still on the ebook side.

That was not really the case with Trisk; their ebook side had--according to anecdotal evidence and my own experience, at least--not been doing well for at least six months before they declared bankruptcy. And when I say "Not well" I'm talking about books not selling more than five or six copies in that six months. MANY books. Like, over half of their releases. Nobody was buying Trisk ebooks and not many people were buying their print books; part of the reason they were disinvited to RWA was because of their habit of strongly encouraging authors to buy their own books and encouraging authors without print books to "support Trisk" by buying any Trisk print books they found in stores. And by "encouraging" I mean "informing them it was their duty".

And while the DA thread is interesting, to me it's really only "news" if you weren't already aware that EC's print program stinks and has for some time. I've always been generally happy at EC and been treated well, but I've always thought their print program blows.

Unless you're one of the authors involved in the deal with Pocket, at least. The EC/Pocket program is still going strong afaik.


Oh, and again, my comment re the suit was just conjecture. I don't know anything about it, at all. If I made a mistake about how the system works, it was MY mistake, so please don't attribute it to EC.

para said:

I notice there is now a comment about the last royalty payment being late on the DA thread.

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I think it was the November royalty checks. I'd have to go through my emails to be sure. The checks weren't late across the board so I'm inclined to think it wasn't something nefarious. I think it might have had something to do with holiday mail surge and Thanksgiving holidays. Since I live way out in the boonies and have a rather slacker mail guy, my checks always arrive three-five days later than everyone else. I wouldn't have even realized if it hadn't been mentioned on the author loop. I think Raelene--who I've always found to be very sensible and quick to respond--gave an explanation and laid out the process for requesting a replacement check, etc.

That said, the ensuing kerfuffle on the author loop was jaw dropping at times. Authors voiced valid concerns about their late checks and a certain author proceeded to deliver rather snotty smackdowns. I found her "ra-ra" attitude incredibly off-putting. There's nothing wrong with asking questions about one's publisher. It's just business, you know? But this author-if evidenced by some of her past cheerleading efforts--confuses valid questioning of our publisher as a personal affront.

DecemberQuinn said:

All I do know is my October release (which was technically November as it came out after the royalty period had ended) was my most successful solo release ever, and my December sales were quite good too. So there is money coming in still on the ebook side.

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Just wanted to second this. My November/December release was the best I've ever had. I was pleasantly surprised. I'd sort of wondered if the recession would have a huge impact on sales, but so far they're holding steady.

DecemberQuinn said:

All I do know is my October release (which was technically November as it came out after the royalty period had ended) was my most successful solo release ever, and my December sales were quite good too. So there is money coming in still on the ebook side.

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I imagined their ebook side would continue to do well because that business plan hasn't changed any. I'm betting this rich sibling will bleed money into the print side in order to keep them afloat, and this can send a publisher to the poorhouse faster than I can eat a Twinkie. They'll have to support them or cut bait. I hope your book continues to sell well!

I'm not, nor have I ever been, an EC author, so all I know is what I read other places. But judging by some of the posts, the royalty check kerfuffle isn't the first time it's happened. Not that that in itself is suspect - I imagine it can happen without being part of some sinister plot. But if it's happening more and more, I'd have to wonder why.

I wasn't aware of the problems with their print program, as the few EC authors I do know have always had their releases in print as well. I was also a little surprised that very few, if any, EC authors know what the criteria is for a print release. And from what I've gathered, whenever an EC author has asked, no answer has been offered. I find that a little weird, frankly.

I would just hate to see what happened to Trisk's authors happen to EC's authors. Hopefully, they'll get themselves back on track.

There's obviously something amiss with the print side, but so far it's not affecting the e-side. I'd heard that sales were down, so I waited for my November check with trepidation, but it was nice and healthy.
I've just gone on the print list for the first time, so I guess I'll find out. But I went with EC for the electronic side, so the print to me is a bonus, not an essential.
I remember the check kerfuffle, but as I recall it was a new author asking about it, and she was totally overwhelmed by the responses. There are a lot of highly emotional people on that group, but I've only been with EC for a year, so I'm still finding my way. I didn't join in, as my check, which is always a few days later than anyone else's because it has to cross the ocean to get to me, was on time.

I understand from the DA thread that EC's books/records are not independently verified. So when they say you've sold 200 books for instance, how do you know that you didn't in fact sell 300? If they are in as much financial trouble with the Print side as it is talked about it would be very easy to start creaming stuff of the top of the more profitable operation. Especially as there is apparently no oversight.

If their contract is of any decency at all, there should be a clause allowing authors to do an on-site independent audit of the books (at the author's own expense) a minimum of once a year. If the contract doesn't allow authors to do that, that's a major red flag.

Many pubs don't do independent audits themselves if they are not public companies, but they should ALWAYS allow authors to do independent audits on request, and spell that out in the Royalties section of the contract. Every publishing contract I've ever signed has always had some sort of audit clause.

I'm not an EC author myself, but given what I'm seeing here and elsewhere, I definitely don't want to be one. And I say that as someone who once would have been proud to have been published there.