Sunpiper Press / Sunpiper Media Publishing

Re: Victoria's comment

Actually Dhew, Mr. Maass started out working as a Jr. Editor at Dell publishing. He had years of publishing experience before he took on his first client - let alone made his first sale.

He worked at another agency to learn the ropes. He built his contacts through in part through the other agents at the firm.

So by the time he started his own agency he knew every aspect of the business, had clients, sales and contacts.

Most agents - and I would guess pretty much all agents at good agencies - do not just on a whim decide they want to be an agent. They spend years learning about the business either through working at publishing co's. or agencies. Many agents start out as assistants to agents - and learn about the business and make contacts that way.

While it's true that every agent starts with no sales, they should at least start with industry experience, contacts and knowledge. And why any writer would want one that didn't, defies all common logic.

And as for your realtor analogy... Real Estate agents need to be licensed which requires that they pass a test - which requires that they learn many aspects of the business i.e. what their responsiblities are, certain laws, etc. So again, they have knowledge even if they lack experience.

Do you understand the difference Dhew? Would you hire a mechanic who had never looked under the hood of car before?

Re: The site statement---

All right then. Which publishers are you planning to submit your writers' work to? Which editors do you and/or your employees have access to, or will you be slushing it all the way? Because as long as you can, and will, offer your writers access to the people and publishers they can't get to, I don't really have a problem with you.

As for those insults, they all came from SimonSays, and that's just how he talks. It hardly gives you a reason to be rude to everyone, does it?

Now, I'd love it if you could explain some things about Sunpiper Press to me.

In your submissions section it says:

"Second, we’d like poetry, short stories and novellas. DO NOT send novellas for online publishing that have not been copyrighted. Though the copyright laws protect you, we do not want to give away work that should be sold. Sunpiper Press is about exposure to your work—not to have your work stolen."

What exactly does that mean? I mean, by publishing those stories online you'll be PUBLISHING them -- or are you just going to publish excerpts? How much do you pay for these stories? After you've published them they'll be classified as a re-print if the writer wants to sell it to someone else, so why would the writer have to worry about it being stolen and submitted to a paying market? Who would steal a reprint? Even if it is stolen (I have seen online stories being stolen, or "borrowed without permission", and put on other sites), it won't be hard to prove that your writer is the original writer. Are you saying that other writers would steal the stories, or are you suggesting that print or web magazines would steal the stories? And who bothers to copyright shortstories anyway?

Re: Victoria's comment

Just for the record, Simon, I am not arguing with anything that you have said. I would LOVE to have an inside track to major publishing houses in New York, but at this time, I don’t have that luxury—that doesn’t mean I should tuck my head and say “I’ll never have a shot.”

When I speak of “common writers” I refer to writers that don’t have contacts but still do good work. No, Simon and Schuster and Bantam are not knocking down their doors because they already have a full plate and have plenty to work with---does that mean those authors don’t need to be heard. What is to happen to these people? Do you care?

Bantam and Viking might not give a crap about the potential marketing audience I will have---but smaller presses will---then it is about selling books. When you talk about publishing is a business, you’ve got to know they like to see numbers.

Let’s take the book “Cold Mountain” by Charles Frazier for instance. It was turned down by many houses, so its first edition was printed by Atlantic Monthly. People loved it so much, it was later picked up by a bigger publisher and made into a movie. I submit to you that the authors Steven Manchester, Jesse F. Gump and J. Conrad Guest, though they have not enjoyed the success as other writers, are just as good, if not better, than writers like Charles Frazier and Nicholas Sparks. They tried your method and it didn’t work for them—now they are trying a different route. I wish you could read the novel, “The Rockin’ Chair” by Steven Manchester. I will grant you that that novel SHOULD be in the hands of an agent with great credentials and vision---but no one has time to read it because they have all they want. What are these writers supposed to do?

Simon, I’m happy to give young writers, new writers and yes high school students a chance to write and have their work seen across the world at SUNPIPER PRESS. I do not ask to represent these people—it is just a place for them to place their work for people to see. Period. I’m not trying to resell their work without their permission. The whole purpose for SUNPIPER PRESS is to get people to interact and if they have something to say, have a platform to say it.

It was meant for people, such as yourself, to let younger writers know more about the business. I invite anyone that wants to educate emerging writers to submit to Sunpiper Press and let my readers read it.

One last situation, and I’m going to leave this whole thing alone, is the case of J. Conrad Guest and him being disgruntled with his POD publisher. He contributed an article that stated that POD normally devalues and author’s work and that “anyone with a credit card could get published”. I printed that article and it caused an uproar. Karen Syed of Echelon Press was fit to be tied when she read the article and wanted to rebut what was said. I WELCOMED IT and she wrote and article for the next issue presenting POD’s side of the story. Which one was correct? I don’t know. But what I do know is that people got to hear both sides of the issue—and I let them make their one decision. The whole Sunpiper Press forum is meant for that kind of interaction. If you want to educate them, talk to them directly instead of trying to trash me for what I’m trying to do.

Please people, investigate what I do. Talk to people that work with me. HELP THOSE that need help. Help me help them if you are concerned with my methods—but don’t talk bad about me because I’m trying a different route. I am intentionally not trying to go the same route that you took. If the opportunity comes along, however, I’ll embrace it, but I’m not going to sit around and hope people come knocking. If I have something that I think is good, I’m going to take it straight to the people—let them read it, and that author WILL get exposure and he/she will get recognition which may/may not open doors for them in the future. I’m at least moving for them rather than just sitting and hoping.

Best wishes to you all.

Re: The site statement---

As for my very last post here, JohannaJ, the answer was in the statement you copied.
"we do not want to give away work that should be sold"
This means if you have a story you are submitting to a paying publication, don't send it to us.
As for novel excerpts, those don't count because they are already protected.
As for being rude, I don't think I've been rude to anyone. I've only stated my opinion and my plans. I have made no derogatory remarks about anyone and the way they pursue their work.

I think I agree with HConn---why bother?

You guys don't want to hear me, you just want to attack me. Feel free--talk about me. I guarantee there will be more people speaking of me in a positive light than in a negative.

GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL and I really do (whether you believe it or not) appreciate you all picking me apart. Questioning makes a strong person that much stronger.

Respectfully,
Robert

Resolution

Normally, I don't make public announcements of this sort, but Sunpiper and P&E have resolved this discussion to our mutual satisfaction.

Re: Victoria's comment

>>Let’s take the book “Cold Mountain” by Charles Frazier for instance. It was turned down by many houses, so its first edition was printed by Atlantic Monthly. People loved it so much, it was later picked up by a bigger publisher<<

Atlantic Monthly Press, that is, an imprint of Grove Atlantic, the respected independent publisher that was this book's first--and only--publisher (in hardcover, at least--the paperback edition was brought out by Vintage).

- Victoria

Re: Resolution

On the subject of new to the site:
I am new to the writing profession and to this site. I looked often, (tho not a member) to gain insight, knowledge and to note agents that I may not want to submit to. I was already a member before the Sunpiper thing, just before. I didn't join on Sunpiper's behalf but I did ask about Sunpiper and did speak up for Sunpiper. I am new, Sunpiper is new and we both have to learn, sometimes by making mistakes.

Re: OK Simon--I really don't want to set you off on me again

The wealthiest author in the world (and we all know who that is) was first published by a small publisher.
If we're talking about J. K. Rowling, she was first (and is still) published by Bloomsbury, which is the largest British-owned publisher in the world.

Re: Resolution

I'm getting kind of smirky about all the "think outside the box" and "elitism" and "outsiders" stuff... is it just me, or have the regulars noticed that every fringe and scam company uses this wording when defending themselves?

Rob, not in any way suggesting you're a scammer. But like all of the experienced authors on this board, I am suggesting that you don't have the experience necessary to help these writers in any meaningful way.

I don't like to see writers pin their hopes on a company just because "they believe in me!" What you are doing is NOT new and nowhere near as revolutionary as you seem to think. It's been tried before many times, and the reason it still "seems" revolutionary is that it's never worked.

If your writers' goals are simply to see their work posted on a website or in an anthology, great-- you've done that. If they seek commercial success and real book sales, you're doing them a disservice.

I've thought about becoming an agent. Maybe I'll do it one day. But I'm not experienced enough for it yet. I've written only 14 books... the latest for McGraw-Hill and Simon & Schuster. I have 2 agents and a manager. I've worked with publicists, I've studied publishing contracts and learned what to negotiate, I've made connections at most of the major publishing houses... and I'm STILL not experienced enough to do right by my would-be clients.

Being a kamikaze is fine, but there's the adage "You must first know the rules before you break them." I consider that a wise adage. Learn all about publishing. THEN figure out what you can do that'll be better and more effective.

Re: Resolution

Jenna, I'd say somebody agrees with you. (It's at the bottom of the piece.)

Hear Ye, Hear Ye

Rob:

"When I speak of “common writers” I refer to writers that don’t have contacts but still do good work. No, Simon and Schuster and Bantam are not knocking down their doors because they already have a full plate and have plenty to work with---does that mean those authors don’t need to be heard. What is to happen to these people? Do you care?"


99.9999999% of all writers are "common" by your definition until they get published. Very few have great uncles or frat brothers who work at Simon & Schuster or Bantam. As I pointed out earlier, publishing is a push industry - which means you need to push the door open at many houses - they aren't coming looking for you. Ironically, this is where something called an agent comes in. Because a good agent is the key that unlocks the doors at publishing houses big and small. You appear to have no keys and you appear to be peretuating the myth that new writers can't get published at most houses. Good, new writers can and do get published all the time. Good new writers do get representation if they don't give up after the 40th query rejection.

And you also are somewhat melodramatic with your "what is to happen to these people?" The fact is only a fraction of those with a passion for writing are good enough at it to warrant publication. If the joy doesn't come from the writing itself - if you need to be heard in order to feel validated, well there is a problem there.

Sunpiper press seems to give those who "need to be a heard" a place to go. Sunpiper Literary Agency on the other hand leads those who want to be published for real absolutely nowhere.

Re: Victoria's comment

I would LOVE to have an inside track to major publishing houses in New York, but at this time, I don’t have that luxury—that doesn’t mean I should tuck my head and say “I’ll never have a shot.”

Click to expand...

Actually, it means you shouldn't be sitting on other peoples' books while you try to agent them. You can't be a useful agent without those contacts; can't you understand that?

If you want to help writers, why don't you start a genuine small press? Not a free online magazine, which anyone could do, and not an agency which you aren't qualified to do. Why not be a small publisher?

Please people, investigate what I do.

Click to expand...

Mr. Denson, what you are doing is not all that new or mysterious. It may seem that way to you, but it just isn't. That's why so many people are convinced it isn't helpful--it's been tried so many times that it's become a common mistake for writers to make.

Did you follow the "On the Getting of Agents" link that James M and I posted? You should. You seem to fall under the category of "gormless."

I really encourage you to read the entry and the comments too. If you have questions, you can ask them in the comments section or in the latest Open Thread. I hope you will be able to really hear the answers when they come from them.

HELP THOSE that need help.

Click to expand...

That's what's happening in this thread.

Help me help them if you are concerned with my methods—but don’t talk bad about me because I’m trying a different route. I am intentionally not trying to go the same route that you took.

Click to expand...

Your route isn't new.

But if you want help--really, honestly want to help writers, I want to expand on what I said upthread.

Start a small press. An online magazine is nothing special--it's open to anyone with a willingness to read slush and some hosting space.

Open a real press and print these books yourself. Hire an editor who lives near you with real publishing experience. Find out what distributers will need from you to carry your books. Then publish them as a small press.

Your marketing skills will be useful to an actual published book in ways that they wouldn't be to an upublished manuscript.

Want more advice? A local (to me) small press came out with a book about Breakfast in Seattle--all the restaurants, how much they cost, what they served, etc. Each restaurant had its own page.

I love to go out for breakfast, and I have a copy around the house somewhere. But that book was *very* successful for the publisher. They were in every bookstore and in little display racks at some of the restaurants. That little book made enough money to pay for a whole line of smaller books.

If you really want to help your authors and believe in them, don't get their works into the agented slush pile. Publish them yourself.

Re: Victoria's comment

"we do not want to give away work that should be sold"

This means if you have a story you are submitting to a paying publication, don't send it to us.

Do you mean "no simultaneous submissions"? If so, it would boost your credibility to use industry-standard terms.

Re: Victoria's comment

HConn, if he goes to Making Light he should post his comments in the agenting thread. He'll either get lost in the current Open Thread, or he'll get shirty with the locals and wind up being declared an inflatable beach toy by the resident otter population.

Re: Victoria's comment

Hapi, you're right, but they've been having trouble with comment spam over there, I was didn't want Mr. Denson to find the thread closed to comments and not know where to post a response.

But the latest open thread is a last resort.

Sunpiper beware

Sunpiper literary has quietly announced that they are moving away from literary representation to go towards publishing with their sister company, Sunpiper Press. This is not reflected on their web sites at all and places such as Preditors and Editors have not yet found out. Thought you guys ought to know - perhaps it is best to stay away from both sites