Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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JuliePgh

Re: POV shifts b/w major and minor characters

Jim,
In another thread (Endings) you wrote:
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Your viewpoint character does not need to be your main character, or even a major character. Remember when I told you to cherish your minor characters? This is one of the places where they can come in handy: they're great viewpoints.
<hr></blockquote>

If an author is alternating POV between two major characters for many chapter and then uses a minor character's POV only once, is this considered inconsistent or disruptive, generally speaking? Should the patterns of POV used in the first few chapters be followed through to the end?
 

macalicious731

skipping

To expand on Julie's question:

I'm following a one character POV through writing. There are certain places which could have an interesting spin if told through a second character's POV, but ultimately I've decided to stick with the first one.

However, I'm considering using that second POV character for the final scene. I think it could work very well - ("do what works") - but I'm not very sensitive when it comes to POV shifts, and I know a lot of people who are.

Since it's the final scene, "the end," I'm just curious about other thoughts on the situation?
 

maestrowork

Re: DaVinci

Katie, not having read your ms, I can't tell if your POV shift at the end would work or not. But I'd caution doing such a major shift at the very end of the book when the readers have invested so much time with your main POV character. Unless, of course, there's reason -- like your main POV character is dead or something, or some other dramatic reasons to tell the ending from a different POV.

Just my thoughts.
 

JimMorcombe

Re: Learn Writing with Uncle Jim

Uncle Jim

I liked your Infodump. I read it all and would continue reading the book.

Its the type of thing I would expect Grisham to write.

You typed two openings from Grisham books. (And then promised an analysis on them...) Did you type them because you were following your own advice and typing stuff you were impressed with?

Was this your effort to make use of Grisham's style?

As I said before, Grisham really makes me turn the pages. But sometimes I get to the end of the book and wonder whether I have read anything except gossip.

Its like you said, you have a contract with the reader. You are promising that the effort of reading the book will be rewarded at the end.

Nephew Jim


P.S. My daughter tels me that "Bleachers" by Grisham came into the bookstores at $AUS 40 but no one bought it. They had to cut the price back to $10 to get rid of it.
 

JimMorcombe

Prologues

Surely "Son of Uncle Jim" must be "Nephew Jim". But don't worry UJ, I won't take over the thread.

But seriously, I have been checking prologues in different books I have.

I think the role of the Prologue has changed over the past 30 years and also between Genres. In particular, in Fantasy the Prologue is really Chapter one, but with a BIG scene change between it and the next chapter.

Back when I was in school, I skipped the Prologue of every book I read.

When David Gemmells first book came out, I skipped his Prologue.

Now I have to read David Gemmell's Prologues or I miss stuff needed for the story.

Now every second Fantasy Book I read has a Prologue that needs to be read.

Look at the effort Robert Jordan puts into his Prologues. Can you skip them? (Even though they all start out with the same wording...interesting point, he bores you with page one of his Prologue before it starts getting interesting...why?)

Twenty years ago, Anne McAfferty would have Introductions that you read if you hadn't read any of the previous books in the series and then have a short Prologue that was skippable, but whetted the appetite.

Nephew Jim
 

JimMorcombe

Question on Foreign Rights

Uncle Jim,

I don't know if I mentioned this before. I probably didn't want to hurt your feelings. Here goes...

The local bookstores don't know who you are. (Sorry! You must remember that Perth in Western Australia is the most isolated capital city in the world. We are so far from Sydney that many of us (rightly) believe it is part of a different country. Our Queen back in England actually gave us permission to secede from the rest of Australia once...)

Anyway, this brings me to the question of foreign rights. When a book is published in the USA, are sales in England and in Australia considered as foreign sales?

Why are authors such as David Gemell so big in England and Australia that he gets an entire Imprint named after one of his books, but Americans don't even read him?

Why are authors like James McDonald so big in America but we Australians have to buy his books off Amazon?

Nephew Jim
 

reph

Re: Kinship

"Surely "Son of Uncle Jim" must be "Nephew Jim"."

It's Cousin Jim, I would think.
 

JimMorcombe

Son of Uncle Jim

Reph

You have a POV problem.

Nephew Jim
(The true, one and only Son of UJ)
 

reph

Re: Prologues

I can explain. The son of one's uncle is one's cousin. The son of one's sister or brother is one's nephew. Where's the POV problem?
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Question on Foreign Rights

Very quickly --

Australia can be considered foreign rights. Depends on what the publisher bought. If they picked up North American rights then you won't see the book outside North America.

If the publisher picked up World English rights, you might see UK and Australian editions, or in any other english-speaking country.

Or other rights and rights packages.

Alas, so far none of my books have sold in Australia. I weep, I sigh. I'd like it if they did. The rights are available; if you're a publisher send me a note; I'm sure we can work something out.

Meanwhile, for all others:

This is a page called <a href="http://www.sharyn.org/slush.html" target="_new">Slush</a>. It's from Sharyn November, the editor of the Firebird imprint (Penguin USA's YA reprint line). There is much good advice on that page, and many fine links from it.
 

James D Macdonald

Fine Article

Another fine article, with much to teach us:

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/01/magazine/01CLARKE.html?ex=1249099200&en=2fea0b3cbfbd17d9&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland" target="_new">New York Times Magazine</a>.
 

HConn

Re: Son of Uncle Jim

I enjoyed the Clark piece. I wonder if her glowing profile will encourage the book editor to end the ban on reviewing fantasy novels.
 

macalicious731

Re: Prologues

A bit on prologues.

When I read Lolita, I skipped the prologue. It was written in italics and was labeled as a "foreword." I skimmed to the end of the foreword and saw it was written by "John Ray, Jr., Ph.D." I thought this was some kind of anaylist or critic writing an introduction to the novel - the repetitive initials in his name should have given me the first clue - and since I was reading it for a paper I didn't want any "outside" information before I finished the novel.

Little did I know the doctor was just another of Nabokov's characters. :smack

I went back and read the prologue after I fiinished the book and quickly realized the whole setup was a major inclusion of foreshadowing which carried through the rest of the novel, finally focusing on the last pages of the book. Key points to understanding the psychology of the book (while making fun of itself at the same time) are locked up in the prologue.

Should it have been read first, like Nabokov intended, or is it okay that, as a bit of an overlook, I read it last?

Who knows.
 

maestrowork

Re: Question on Foreign Rights

That's why nowadays authors tend to forgo prologues/foreword, etc. Some still do, and some do it for no reason at all (for example, Dan Brown put his opening murders in prologues -- huh?). Somebody said here that a lot of readers don't read prologues. I personally don't read "foreword" at all.
 

DanALewis

forewords and prologues

I skip forewords and such because I am afraid of literary criticism with spoilers.
 

ElonnaT

Re: Prologues

Prologues seem to usually be shorter than the regular chapters in a book. So, if the information is important enough to be included in the first place, should it just be a short chapter 1 instead?
 

aka eraser

Re: Prologues

I guess I'm in the minority because I read them. I figure if the writer wrote them, he/she had to have a reason. Sometimes an intriguing prologue convinces me to buy the book.
 

Pthom

Re: Prologues

I think sometimes, a prologue is used to deliver exposition or backstory that would otherwise bog down the main story line.

Often, they're informative; just as often they're garbage.
-----------------------​
In the story I'm writing, I have to deliver a great deal of exposition; the setting is far from the experience of the reader. I considered a prologue, briefly, and discarded it for the reason mentioned: it may go unread.

I considered including a glossary. May still do so, along with a Dramatis Personae. May not.

What I am considering though, is including a brief paragraph at the beginning of each chapter, a 'false authority' quote from made-up writings, or from characters in the story.

I've seen this done, asked my beta readers about it. One was ambivalent; another said she always reads those things.

What are your opinions on including 'false authority' quotes?
 

Kida Adelyn

Re: Prologues

I always read things like that: false quotes, prologs.
In one of my favorite books the auther includes a passage from a book that exists in the characters world that explains the polotics of the story so it dosn't bog down the story. It's not essential reading, because she also includes those facts just slipped into the story. She also includes 'false authority' quotes infront of about ever other chapter or so because the main character has alot of knowledge on spying and such that she uses and putting those things into the text would slow the story down considerable.
I think its a brilliant technich that I always read.

-Ally
 

Terra Aeterna

Re: Prologues

After much angsting (because usually I hate prologues) I'm about to write a prologue, because my chapter one really needs to start where it starts, and yet the readers seem to need more information and lacing it into chapter one isn't working for me. I'd still like to avoid the thing if I could think my way out of it.

P.S. This is a rewrite, so I've already written to "The End".
 

maestrowork

Re: Prologues

Can you think of ways to include your backstories, background information in your story, instead of setting it aside to prologue? I mean, some readers won't read the prologue so you will lose them...
 

ChunkyC

Re: forewords and prologues

What are your opinions on including 'false authority' quotes?
Frank Herbert uses them to great effect in Dune.

Personally, I read everything readable in a book, right down to the ISBN. As far as forwards or false authority quotes go, if it's there, I believe it's there for a reason, so I read it. If it turns out to add nothing to the story, then it becomes a reason for liking the book less than I would have otherwise, as with any bad writing regardless of where it may be found between the covers.
 

maestrowork

Re: Prologues

I'm a bad reader -- I don't have patience. I tend to skip things that are not part of the main story.

That's ironic because as a writer, I want my readers to pay attention to all the subtleties and hidden symbolisms or themes, etc. and they can only do that if they read everything. :lol I guess I have double standards.
 

Euan Harvey

People who read the lot

>Personally, I read everything readable in a book, right down to the ISBN. As far as forwards or false authority quotes go, if it's there, I believe it's there for a reason, so I read it.

Just want to say that this goes for me too. When I read a book I start with the acknowledgements and then work through to any appendices.

I like false quotes -- I think you have to be very careful about the tone and content though.

Cheers,

Euan
 

Pthom

Re: forewords and prologues

As far as forwards or false authority quotes go, if it's there, I believe it's there for a reason, so I read it.
You're my kinda reader, CC.
:grin
 
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