Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Re: clarification

It's such a fine line between just "not enjoying" something, and calling it crap, isn't it?

I enjoyed it the first time through, because it moved at such a breakneck pace that the very motion distracted you from all the really awkward prose, the cardboard characters, the stupid plot twists, etc, etc...

Re: clarification

I have to go with the Maestro, et al. A couple of the plot devices/historical bits are interesting, but the writing is, well, not exemplary. I certainly wouldn't have picked it as a Breakout novel (using the Don Maass definition). The characters are mostly flat, the plot itself isn't very interesting and there's just not a lot of depth. I was prepared to be wowed by this sensational novel and I felt like I'd picked up a bad Robert Ludlum or Trevanian knock-off. :shrug

BT

Re: Chapter breaks vs scene breaks??

Well, I guess "crap" is a strong word. Just say my internal editor wanted to bring out the red pen! It was poorly written by our standards here (read Uncle Jim's thread about what we're talking about).

I don't really want to go into "Da Vinci Code" trashing here. Like I said, it was a good enough page-turner for me because of the premise/theme. I think people are fascinated by it not because of the plot (which is very thin and not very well delivered) but because of myths and revelation about Jesus and the Holy Grail, etc. Religous and historical myths are very interesting and powerful stuff. (I actually love the art, conspiracy, religion stuff. It's the writing itself--execution-- that bothered me).

If Brown posted his writing here, he would probably be criticized for:

- too much exposition
- too much info dumping. He constantly shows off his research knowledge by stopping the story or having the characterse talk for pages and pages, dumping info to readers
- the dialogue is stilted most of the time. His characters all sound the same: like the author.
- the plot is predictable. I knew who the villain was very early on and where the story was going.
- the writing style, while not horrible, is nothing to cheer about. It's usually very flat.
- the narration is coy just for suspense sake. The "I know something but I am not going to tell you now... read a few more chapters then I will tell you" thing. It's annoying. For example, very early on about the way the museum curator died -- the narrator and the characters know (they saw the picture, etc.) -- but nobody tells you... keep referring to "the horrific and bizarre way" but they just won't tell you until chapters later. That is not suspense. That is plain manipulative and annoying.
- and other little technical stuff

I think his "Angels & Demons" is a much better book.

Re: DaVinci

Nice explanation, maestrowork.

I think I made to page 50 and didn't weep when the library called it due. Part of that context is that I read several books per week, and am very picky what I sacrifice sleep time for. I have to be in love or on assignment to complete a book.

Now, I read Siddhartha in 2 sittings recently, savoring each word.

A number of my writerly contacts enjoyed DaVinci, but most agree Angels is a more enjoyable read.

++++
Hey my post bumped this topic to page 100. Isn't there some rumor that at that page, the whole thing will be indexed or printed as a book?

<img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/image/posticons/pi_star.gif" />

Re: clarification

And if I can add to that, Maestro, the DaVinci Code always struck me as a book that could've used just one more draft. I think that the agent or the editor one got a hold of it, saw that it was a whiz-bang premise ripe for a movie adaptation and the bestseller list, and rushed it to production.

Re: clarification

gp101 wrote:

not to stir up a hornet's nest, but why do you think Davinci Code is crap? Seriously... not trying to bait either of you. What made you think it was crap, and what do you think could have made the story a good read for you?

Click to expand...

The plot was predictable, the characters were caricatures, the dialogue was dumb, and the style was stilted.

Most of all, I thought it just wasn't very good at what it was trying to be. At its core it's a puzzle book, with a conceit we've all seen before in Scooby Doo. Some dead guy left behind his treasure, and thought it would be amusing to reveal it through a series of contrived puzzles. Our Heroes coincidentally have exactly what they need to puzzle their way through. This is a time-tested formula, but the puzzles were just too easy. I hate it when a character in a book is supposed to be an expert in his field, but I've got the answers two chapters before him.

Perhaps the background info (regarding art, codes, and Biblical conspiracies) put you off? That, I could understand--it's not everyone's cup o' tea. Myself, I ate it up.

Click to expand...

No, actually, the idea and technical details were fine. The central idea's not original at all, and the religious conspiracy stuff's been done far better by better writers (Umberto Eco comes to mind -- Foucault's Pendulum is a very similar story Done Right). But the ideas were pretty cool. I just hated the "suspense" story they were hung on.

Is it that either of you prefer more "literary" writing?

Click to expand...

No, I can get by on cheese just fine, if it's good cheese. The Da Vinci Code is not good cheese; it's completely bland Velveeta, which I suspect people buy and eat more for the Cracker Jack prizes embedded in the middle of it, but as long as they're eating it they convince themselves it tastes good.

This was a perfectly reasonable book to write. I just wish it had been written by a better writer than Dan Brown.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

Re: DaVinci

I'm thinking of starting a Son Of Uncle Jim thread, Real Soon Now.

But ...

Before we go there....

Uncle Jim Does an Info Dump.

Here's the first several pages from a short story ("Jenny Nettles" in <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/059025930X/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Bruce Coville's Book of Spine Tinglers</a>). Note how much info is dumped, and how little story is going on.

Now ... let's see how many people are still following at the bottom of this post, and who wants to see What Happens Next:

<hr>
<blockquote>

2600 words

Re: DaVinci

Page #100.

Woo hoo.

arty arty arty

Search function

I'm saving my celebrations for the 2,000th post, which will be the first on page 101.

Re: clarification

...it was a whiz-bang premise ripe for a movie adaptation...

Click to expand...

Maybe Goldsman will write a better screenplay than Brown did his novel. We can hope. Howard's reputation is at stake.

Re: DaVinci

Nah, Howard's reputation was at stake when he filmed "How the Grinch Stole Christmas."

Re: DaVinci

Halfway through the voyage, the wind died...

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... And?

Okay, I'll admit I skipped the info dump. Start with the last sentence (if that's where the story starts.)

Oh, the beginning was okay, with the men burying the figurehead, but then the wind died...

(Oh, and thanks for the example. It illustrates the problem [and the solution] perfectly to me.)

thx for the response

SFEley and Maestro:

fair enough. Liked the cheese metaphor.

Glad you two were stand-up and didn't take my honest questions as challenges or attacks as some might have.

Novel Length

Uncle Jim,

A few pages back, there was some discussion about the length of novels. In that disucssion you said, in effect, that the length really doesn't matter so long as the writing and the story is worth all the pages.

I'm writing young adult fiction. From what I've been told, YA publishers have very strict guidelines for first novels of no more than 70,000 words. My book is quite a bit longer than that, something around 110,000 words, but I feel I need that much to get the story told without compromising the story and short-changing the reader. My book isn't the typical teenie-bopper type novel, but more of a serious nature. It could even be considered mainstream in some ways, though it's primarily being written for a YA audience.

What is your opinion of my success in selling it considering the 70,000 word limit?

Re: DaVinci

Okay, I'll admit I skipped the info dump

Click to expand...

:smack

The whole point of posting the exposition was so you could see how it could be done. And you skipped it?

What impressed me about that exposition was that it was all framed in character and conflict, with an interesting (and unusual--to me) setting.

You can do anything, even open with backstory and "telling" if it works.

Re: DaVinci

"a Son Of Uncle Jim thread" -- That would be Cousin Somebody, right?

I'm on page 133 of this thread because I once changed a setting in My Control Center so pages would load faster.

Re: DaVinci

The whole point of posting the exposition was so you could see how it could be done. And you skipped it?

Click to expand...

I only scanned it. Since the story seems to be about the ship, the information about the Scotsman seemed irrelavent. If it turns out to be important to the story, then there should be a good reason it was dumped in the beginning of the story. If there is a good reason, then I don't mind going back and re-reading the beginning to see what I missed.

The fast forward and rewind functions are much more efficient in book form than digital or video formats.

Jen

Re: Novel Length

I tend to skip long expos too, even if it's very well written.

Re: DaVinci

The whole point of posting the exposition was so you could see how it could be done. And you skipped it?

Click to expand...

I thought the whole point of posting was to show why it shouldn't be done... Even by a good writer.

I've gone back a couple of times and tried to re-read. I stop every time. It might be good info and it might even be needed later on, but it isn't relevant at the beginning, so it shouldn't be at the beginning.

But I'm waiting for UJ to reappear to tell us what lesson he thought we might learn from this particular example...

Re: DaVinci

my post was swallowed again--sheesh--is someone trying to tell me something?

Shawn

Re: DaVinci

You must have exceeded your typing quotas for today.

:lol

Re: clarification

Agree with Maestro on the DaVinci Code. That book is a classic example of a good story overcoming poor writing. ("poor writing" being such a relative term.)

skipping exposition

A few of you admit to skipping exposition from time to time. I do it myself when the writer starts losing me. With this in mind, how many of you have read anything by Elmore Leonard? In interviews he says he tries to avoid the "stuff" people skip over. I've read about six of his novels and can't ever remember skipping one word.

He's very stylized especially with dialogue and says the second his writing appears like he's trying to show off his writing, he deletes it. He's the least intrusive narrator I've ever read.

Any thought on his books or style?

Re: DaVinci

I don't skip when I'm reading Elmore Leonard.

I'm more likely to skip to the end of a fight scene than I am an interesting, descriptive passage like the one above. I'm more likely to skip through an uneventful walk through a house, too.

Re: Learn Writing with Uncle Jim

Well, I for one am keen to read more, Uncle Jim|

(Then again, having been raised on Kipling, Conrad and all the greats, I love nothing more than a nautical story!)

(Except perhaps stories about India and talking dogs. Got any of those, too?)