Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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Euan Harvey

Re: word count

>The hell it has been, and the hell we do -- meaning no disrespect to yourself. But if that were true, I'm sure I would have heard about it by now.

www.google.com/search?hl=...tnG=Search

Granted, not all of them are subjunctive, but many of them are.

Cheers,

Euan
 

gp101

request

There any chance that some of the published writers on this thread could share several pages of their published stories in the SHARE YOUR WRITING section of these boards? I'm not greedy, just a few pages of a novel or short story that actually got printed, preferably the beginning, so the rest of us can see what works in your particular genres. I've already read some of Uncle Jim's stuff on these boards and through links (highly recommend it to those who haven't read him yet); would like to see some of the rest of ya'lls. Might even score a sale or two from us.

I'm sure a few know-it-all's will tell you what you did wrong in your writing--published or not--but it's for a good cause.
 

gp101

request

...and if you do post some of your material, could you notify us on this thread? I know, I'm asking a lot.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Learn Writing with Uncle Jim

I've read two Grisham novels -- The Runaway Jury, and A Time to Kill.

Later on today I'll try to hit the library and grab a couple of Grisham's works, and play with a couple of pages here.

I'll also try to remember to give you my Fire Door Theory of Novels.
 

maestrowork

Re: Foo

Instead of posting in SYW, why don't we simply buy their books? :) Support your fellow authors and learn something from them at the same time. Also, I believe on Uncle Jim's site, you can view sample chapters of his books.
 

Fresie

Re: request

There any chance that some of the published writers on this thread could share several pages of their published stories in the SHARE YOUR WRITING section of these boards? I'm not greedy, just a few pages of a novel or short story that actually got printed, preferably the beginning, so the rest of us can see what works in your particular genres.

That's exactly the reason why I visit Amazon.com so often: I read the first pages! Many books have this option when you can have a "peek" at their beginnings. Then, especially when you compare them to professional reviews and readers' opinions on the same page, and the number of stars and all that, you can get a pretty clear picture of what works for the industry.

(Not that the picture of my writing becomes any clearer from that :bang ... but it's a fun way to spend a bit of spare time on the Net.)
 

Yeshanu

Re: request

... or try your local public library. They have books by our own Uncle Jim, Karen Ranney, James A. Ritchie, and more!

And if you're broke like me, it's all free! :snoopy

Just remember to take the books back on time...
 

JuliePgh

Character's Name vs Pronoun

<a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/POTSEXPT.HTM" target="_new">The Price Of The Stars</a>

Jim,

I read the prologue to The Price Of The Stars online, and it sparked a question. How do you know when to use the character's name vs pronoun? In your prologue, sometimes you use 'Beka' and other times 'she'.

I read somewhere that if it is clear who's in the scene and there's only one woman, the first reference should use her name and then 'she' should be used to make for an easier read.

Do you alternate for sound, variety, or what?

Thank you.
(P.S. I loved the prologue. Can't wait to read the rest!)
 

gp101

posting authors' names?

"Instead of posting in SYW, why don't we simply buy their books?"

"That's exactly the reason why I visit Amazon.com so often: I read the first pages!"

"... or try your local public library"

Excellent suggestions. But I didn't know any of the published authors' names except for Jim's. I occasionally catch a first name, and even then I'm not sure if the person has anything in print.

Didn't think it would be a big deal to post a couple pages (not entire chapters or the full monty) with their names here for convenience sake. And a nice way to get people interested in their writing--capitalism at its finest. Jim is already on my list of authors to BUY once I catch up on my current reading.

"Karen Ranney, James A. Ritchie,"

...thanks, Yesh. Anymore names I can look up on Amazon?
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Learn Writing with Uncle Jim

I pulled The Summons and The Street Lawyer out of the library today, and looked at A Time To Kill over at Barnes&Noble.

I defy anyone to read the first page of A Time to Kill and not go on to finish the first chapter -- I know I did, standing there in the bookstore.

I'll be looking at the other two books shortly, and maybe doing some retyping here.

Remember the master rule: Does it work?

<HR>

Sometimes later books by popular authors get sloppy, in some ways. Sometimes its that they aren't being edited as closely (that happens for all sorts of reasons -- if anyone ever hears me say "I want a no-editing clause in my next contract" you have my permission to come to my house and mock me in person). Sometimes the author has run out of the earlier fire, and is cruising.

Readers are more forgiving of authors who have shown them a good time in the past, and will work with them a bit longer and a bit harder.

<HR>

Oh -- here's <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/worldconskedjdm.htm" target="_new">my WorldCon schedule</a>.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Character's Name vs Pronoun

Do you alternate for sound, variety, or what?

Variety, sentence rhythm, and to reinforce the character's name for the reader.

She'll spend an awful lot of the rest of the book in one disguise or another, using other names.
 

JimMorcombe

Re: Learn Writing with Uncle Jim

Uncle Jim

John Grisham's books really are page turners, but a lot of it reads like gossip. Just the same way you really need to know what your best friend's cousin's wife does when she is home alone, you really need to keep turning Grisham's pages.

I just finished reading "The Last Juror". At first I thought I was reading a novel about a murder trial. Then I thought I was reading about a parole. Then I thought I was reading about a mystery about who was knocking off the Jurors. Finally it was over and we knew who the culprit was...but the book kept going, and going, and going. There was lots of excitement in the book. There were lots of interesting details about the quirks and peculiarities of the town's citizens. I even learnt how to run a newspaper. But I really have no idea what the book was about.

I kept turning the pages just because it was always interesting. At the end of the book, I wondered why I had read it.

A while back, I read "Bleachers". Even worse. Lot of stuff about Football which I don't even understand, let alone have an interest in. After I finished it, I decided the book lacked any substance at all and that I would never read another of his books.

Yet I've read three more since then.

Is Grisham a case where Style makes up for lack of plot? Or is gossip a legitimate literary style?

Nephew Jim
 

JimMorcombe

Back to Joan-Doe Whining Author

Uncle Jim

Revisiting a subject already done to death...(Sorry)

I've forgotten the writer's name, but I'm sure everyone remembers the article about the writer despondent over her $80,000 advance when only 10,000 books were sold...

You put the Editor forth as the Readers representative.

If an editor buys a complete and utter piece of rubbish, puts a nice cover on it, makes sure page one is a real grabber, makes sure the back cover reads well, puts it number one on his lists and then advertises it like hell to the book wholesalers...

Wouldn't the book sell well, even if it was complete rubbish? Surely the quality of the book would simply mean that the writers second book would only sell three copies?

Nephew Jim
 

JimMorcombe

Re: Learn Writing with Uncle Jim

His wife was opening the door. Susan grabbed her clothes, ran to the window and stepped out onto the balcony. A family of startled owls stared back at her.

What would people say if she was found she and Albert were secretly seeing each other?

“Silvia, Darling,” she heard Albert through the window. He sounded happy to see her. Susan wondered when he had become such a good actor.

“I demand you make a decision,” his wife screamed. “Do you want me or that cheap floozy you’ve been seeing?”

“Who?” hooted an owl on the balcony with her.

“Say it’s me,” Susan willed him. “Say its me you love.”

“Who?” another owl said.

“I’ve been meaning to tell you Darling,” he replied. “I’m leaving you for Patricia.”

“Who?” Susan heard herself scream.
“Who?” Inside the room she heard the indignant Silvia shout.
“Who?” Outside the window she heard a redundant owl.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Learn Writing with Uncle Jim

Wouldn't the book sell well, even if it was complete rubbish?

It would -- perhaps. Readers are wiley creatures, and sometimes will leave everyone scratching their heads. The Bridges of Madison County?

More important, given that publishers have limited resources, why would the editor put a book she knows is complete rubbish number one on the list and advertise the heck out of it? Doesn't that editor have any good books? Are the other editors at that publishing house sitting on their thumbs?

A nice cover, yes. A good blurb, yes. Make it read as well as it can, of course. But if it's rubbish and the editor knows it ... the resources aren't going to be there for more.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: word count

The author said that the publisher was getting stricter with word counts, and would not accept anything over 120k (while in the past up to 150k was okay). A second author, with published short stories in the best pro markets (also SF), said they were given the same limits for their first novel (from TOR).

It's more likely that that was specific advice for specific authors, who may write fatter books than the story will support.
 

Yeshanu

Re: that would be here, bob

It's more likely that that was specific advice for specific authors, who may write fatter books than the story will support.

Perhaps, but as a newbie with a fantasy novel to try and sell, it's a good thing to know that publishers will be more likely to publish it if the word count on the front page is less than 120,000.
 

wwwatcher

Final Revision Checklist

I'm about 5 screens behind in reading this thread (computer challenges!) so my apologies if this has been covered.

Jim and others:

Do you have a list of final things you check before submitting a manuscript? I would guess most writers have at least one area that they know they have to check at the end and I'm trying to find any areas that beta readers and I may have missed.

Things that occur to me are:

are characters real?
is plot believable?
spelling and grammar?
are sentences varied?
do any words stand out?
is everything clear?
does the story flow?
(and with me) is there enough narration?
(and) have I described the characters enough?


Thanks,
Faye

P.S. I'm getting (published) beta writers who are suggesting that there must be a home for one of my stories, so I feel like I'm getting there.
 

JuliePgh

Re: Final Revision Checklist

Faye,

The following list may help you. It's from the Victoria Crayne site <a href="http://www.crayne.com/howcrit.html" target="_new">How to Critique Fiction</a>
<ol>
<li>Opening
<ol>
<li>Do the first few sentences or paragraphs of the story grab your attention? Do they present the protagonist's main problem? Remember how you judge a book or story when you first see it in a bookstore. Don't we often base our decision to buy or not buy upon those first few sentences? Did this author grab your attention fast enough?
</ol>

<li>Conflict

<ol>
<li>By conflict, I do not mean lots of slam-bam action. Conflict is "The mental or moral struggle caused by incompatible desires and aims. That is the kind of conflict that makes stories vitally alive." - Ben Bova in "The Craft of Writing Science Fiction That Sells".


<li>Is there emotional conflict WITHIN the main character? Between the main characters? Emotional conflict is part of what gets readers interested. For example: love vs. loyalty; greed vs. duty; fear vs. desire; revenge vs. self-doubt.


<li>Are there too many or not enough conflicts?

<li>"The writer's job is to be a troublemaker! Stir up as many levels of conflict and problems for your protagonist (hero) as you can. Let one set of problems grow out of another. And never, never, never solve a problem until you've raised at least two more. It is the unsolved problems that form the chain of promises that keeps the reader interested." - Ben Bova.

Until the end, of course, when all the conflicts should be resolved.


<li>Is there enough conflict between the characters? Is it expressed through action, dialogue, attitudes, or values? Were the characters sufficiently contrasted? Or did they seem to be totally satisfied with their roles? Did they have the potential to transform each other?
</ol>

<li>Plot

<ol>
<li>Was the main plot clear and believable?


<li>Did the main character have a clearly defined problem to solve? Did you feel by the end of the piece that this problem was solved or did the character become resolved to live with it?


<li>Were you able to determine the time and place of the story quickly enough?


<li>Did the story start at the right place? Did it end at the right place in the plot?


<li>Are there scenes which do not seem to further the plot?


<li>Were there too many flashbacks, which broke your attention?


<li>If the piece was a short story, were there too many subplots? If the piece was a novel, could it be improved by more attention to the subplots or have more subplots? Conversely, does it have too many subplots and you got confused about what was happening?


<li>Was every subplot useful? Did it add to the overall story or did the author seem to stick it in just for complexity?

<li>Pacing: Did the plot/subplots move fast enough to keep the reader's attention?


<li>Resolution of conflict: Did the conflict and tension in the plots and subplots come to some reasonable ending? Or did the author leave us hanging, wondering what happened? When you finished, were there things that you still felt needed to be explained?

If the author did leave some conflict unresolved, did they indicate somewhere that future stories are pending?
</ol>


<li>Setting

<ol>
<li>Is there enough description of the background in the story to paint a picture that seems real enough for the reader? Did you feel that you were transported to 'that time or place'?


<li>Was there too much description so modern readers might tend to become bored? Was the description written with cliches?


<li>Did the author use good enough names for people, places, and things? Names help set the tone for a story. Where some names of people hard to keep track of? Did some names seem inconsistent with the character? Were the names too stereotypical?

"The reader would have a tough time imagining a two-fisted hero named Elmer Small, but James Retief comes across just fine as a hero in Keith Laumer's stories. Similarly, Bubbles La Toure is hardly the name of a saintly nun, whereas Modesty Blaise is a sexy and intriguing name for a female counterpart of James Bond." - Ben Bova.


<li>Did the author convince you that people in that time or place would behave that way?


<li>Is the timing and order of events in the story consistent? For example, did John drive his new car on his vacation in chapter six but it wasn't until chapter ten that he bought it?

</ol>

<li>Characterization

<ol>
<li>Did the people seem real? Or were the main characters stereotypes or one-dimensional cardboard characters?


<li>Were the facts about the characters accurate and consistent?

"It's very important in building characters to make sure your 'facts' are accurate and consistent. If you mention in chapter two that your sister's birth sign is Leo, and then in chapter twelve, you have her celebrating her birthday during a snowfall (unless she lives at the north pole [or in the southern hemisphere]), credibility will be lost. Even if the reader doesn't key in on exactly 'what' is wrong with the picture, he/she will have a disquieting sense that 'something' is." - Debra Littlejohn Shinder


<li>People do not exist in a vacuum. They have family, friends, a job, worries, ambitions, etc. Did you get a sense of enough of these, but not too much, for the main characters?


<li>Did you get a good picture of the culture, historical period, location, and occupation of the main character?


<li>Did you get enough of a sense of paradoxes within the character? Enough of their emotions, attitudes, values?


<li>Backstory: where you distracted by too much background information of a character at one time? Did the author seem to dump a lot of information on the background of a character in one or two long speeches, or did we learn about that character here and there in smaller pieces?


<li>Did the protagonist undergo some change in the story?


<li>Could the story have been improved by adding more details of the protagonist's or another character's reputation; stereotyped beliefs; their network of relations to other people; habits and patterns; talents and abilities; tastes and preferences; or physical description of their body?


<li>Does each chapter/page have enough sensory description? Can the reader easily sense what is happening physically to the main character? Were there enough words of sight, sound, touch, smell, or taste?


<li>If the story used a person as the antagonist (villain), did they seem real too? Or did they seem so evil or one-sided that they were more like ideal villains? Did they have some redeeming qualities too? Did the villain seem to be a hero in their own mind?


<li>Every reader has their own taste in how much characterization they like. Did this story have too little or too much characterization for you?

</ol>

<li>Dialogue

<ol>

<li>Did the words from the mouths of the people in the story seem consistent with their personalities?


<li>Was there too much or not enough dialogue, in your opinion? Usually writers err on the side of not enough dialogue.


<li>Did any character tend to talk in long monologues?


<li>Were you able to sense the conflict, attitudes, and intentions of each character in their dialogue without the author telling you of these directly?


<li>Were you able to detect any exchange of power that is sexual, physical, political, or social?


<li>Did the dialogue seem easy to speak? Can you 'hear' it? If it sounds unusual, you might suggest that the writer try reading it aloud.


<li>Does the dialogue seem TOO MUCH like normal speech, with too many incomplete sentences, pauses, restarts, profanity, cliches, etc. that it was distracting?


<li>Did the author use dialect that was too heavy, making it difficult to read?


<li>Does each character have their own speech rhythm, accent (if necessary), vocabulary, and even length of sentences?


<li>In an exchange of conversation, can you easily tell who is speaking if you didn't have their names or gender attached to their sentences?


</ol>
<li>Point of View

<ol>
<li>Was a given chapter or section written from one person's point of view? Are there too many points of view in the story?


<li>Did the story skip around between the first person or third person point of view (POV)? Were the changes in POV signaled clearly? There is nothing inherently wrong in changing POV, as long as it is not done too often.


<li>If the story was written in the third person POV, as most stories are, did the story stick with the omniscient (all knowing) POV, use a limited POV (where we don't know everyone's motives except by clues from their words or actions), or did the author mix the two? Did the author's choice seem right to you?

"The key point is to get the reader to engage in a contract in which the writer offers: 'I'm not going to show you everything in the character's head because that would spoil the story for you. Instead, I will reveal things as we go along but I promise that I won't cheat.'" - Trevor Lawrence


<li>When the POV changed, were you able to quickly sense who the new viewpoint was from?

</ol>

<li>Show versus tell
<ol>


<li>When in the POV of a character, did the author describe what his/her senses showed, e.g., sight, sound, smell, touch, taste? Or did the author just tell you the dinner was very good?


<li>Did the author describe exactly how the people acted?


<li>Was there too much abstract language where specific details would have made a greater impact on the reader?


<li>Was there too many instances of words like "very", "much", "really", "great", or "nice" when a more detailed description would have been more colorful?


<li>Did we get the chance to interpret what the characters were feeling or did the author just tell us directly? For example, I once wrote: "Two weeks later, after more hours than he cared to remember, Jet felt very, very tired" and let it go at that and missed the opportunity to describe his fatigue instead.

</ol>

<li>Format of the text
<ol>
<li>Was it easy to read or were the paragraphs too long or the lines too long (not enough margin)?

<li>Would it help to put blank lines between paragraphs? If the piece is to be read on a computer monitor, adding a blank line between paragraphs will make it much easier for your critics to read. Note: when you submit the final version to print publishers, it is best to adhere to their manuscript format (no blank lines between paragraphs).
</ol>

<li>Grammar and spelling
<ol>


<li>Was the English readable? Were there too many grammatical errors, misuse of punctuation, run-on sentences, etc.?


<li>Did you point out any typos or misspelling? How many times have you missed that in your writing because you passed over it without seeing it? Were there so many such errors that they made reading the piece difficult for you?


<li>Did the author use too many exclamation points (one of my weaknesses)?


<li>Where there any cliches in the narrative? For example, I once wrote "fruits of mother nature" and "thoughts burning in his mind", both of which are cliches. In dialogue cliches are okay if the character would speak that way.


<li>Did the author use melodrama? For instance, I once wrote: "With tears in her eyes and barely able to speak, the head nurse dialed the Chief of Staff. There would be a lot of crying tonight." Can't you just hear the violins in the background?


</ol>
<li>Style
<ol>
<li>You may wish to comment on the style the story was written in, e.g., humorous, wordy, sparse, literary, homespun, technical, etc.
</ol>
</ol>
 

vrauls

Intro and Question

I think I'll skip the obligatory introduction where I thank Jim and everyone on the list and claim to have read every page (really, I did!). Instead I'll just go right to the question:

Jim:
"Let me tell you a true thing: if you have a talent for prose ficition [sic] (and most people don't -- I swear to you, most people don't), and you've practiced so that your talent is developed -- there are folks who will pay you cash money. You have a rare talent. You are one among a million. You deserve money for what you can do. Do not sell yourself short!"

What you have said here strikes me as one of the truest pieces of writing advice I’ve ever read.

In reading unpublished writing (which I am occasionally asked to do), it always seems painfully clear to me from the first pages who has talent and who doesn't. Does that reflect your experience as well? And, if so, how can I tell the same about my own writing?

I know I’ll be receiving “if your secret heart yearns to write fiction then you should write fiction come hell or high water” responses, but let’s be serious. I know plenty of people whose hearts yearn to write fiction and who do... but it’s still not good fiction.
 

Editrx

Uncle Jim on the road

Uncle Jim is on the road right now -- he just stopped here for dinner and to be re-caffeinated (caffeine? who needs dinner!). He'll try to answer the board when he gets resettled at his destination, though he'll still be on and off a lot, as he has a great deal of non-board responsibilities right now.

He says, "Hi."
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Intro and Question

Oh, no! A typo! I shall die of shame. (And I shall also go back and edit that....)

In reading unpublished writing (which I am occasionally asked to do), it always seems painfully clear to me from the first pages who has talent and who doesn't.

To which I say: Sometimes. Sometimes someone who seemed totally hopeless returns some years later with something Really Good. You've heard how many pro writers have early works that they wince to re-read, who thank Ghod that the editors they sent 'em to rejected them. This too is true.

Yes, I've read unpublished stuff (a lot of it) that should stay unpublished, where I've said "This guy has talent." That's why the line in the rejection letter that says "send us your next" is a hopeful one.

It's also true that judging your own work is difficult, and knowing if you have talent is darn-near impossible. (Have I mentioned how many Big Name Pros have "Imposter Syndrome"?)

Here's how to tell if you are good enough for someone to offer you money:

a) Someone offers you money.

Before then, if you're unsure about submitting your work:

b) Your beta readers ask you if you have anything else for them to read.

Better still:

c) Friends of your beta readers ask if you have anything else for them to read.
 
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