Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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JuliePgh

Re: Conjoining Contradictory Terms

Does anyone here ever use conjoining contradictory terms (as in `deafening silence')? Should they be avoided at all costs, used sparingly, or depends on personal style?
 

ChunkyC

Re: deafening silence

I'd say use sparingly, too much and the surprise and impact of such a juxtaposition would be lost. I also would strive for something as original as possible. Your example illustrates the concept perfectly, but is so common it no longer has the desired effect.
 

maestrowork

Re: word count

sparingly for effects... also because they're usually cliche (such as "deafening silence"). Try something else (such as "thundering silence"). :b
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Category

I look at this "book-length" project of mine and realise it doesn't actually fit any category ...

If you have a compelling story compellingly told, what exact category it fits into won't matter ... let the editors and the marketing people at the publishing house figure out what kind of cover to put on it.

Remember that Fritz Leiber's <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812512960/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Conjure Wife</A> has been marketed as fantasy, science fiction, horror, and romance at various times its publishing history.

Marketing categories -- if your story is good enough they'll invent a marketing category just for you.
 

Pthom

Re: word count

"He looked at me as if he was doing me a favor" -- he MIGHT very well be really doing you a favor. Here, "as if" is used in the manner of "like."
It might be better in this case to use "as though". "Like" is the wrong word, and the wrong idea. "If" connotes the possibility that something else is possible.

Better yet, recast the whole damn sentence. :LOL
 

reph

Re: subjunctive

Maestro, I agree with everything in that quotation of yours, and I still say "He looked at me as if he were doing me a favor" is the way to go if you want to write a grammatical sentence. (Why might you want an ungrammatical one? To stay in a character's voice, as mentioned.) "As if" plays by different rules than "if."

"As if" and "as though" are interchangeable. "As though" sounds more formal; it isn't used so much nowadays.
 

paritoshuttam

was v/s were

Thanks. Glad to know the answer to my question wasn't trivial :) I thought I was missing out on some basic grammar rule. Does help to know that it isn't a black-and-white thing.
 

maestrowork

Re: word count

Reph, you and the other grammar gods and goddesses are absolutely right. :)

I'm just pointing out that many grammatical rules are relaxed in today's literary world. For example, subjunctives are sometimes viewed as archaic and unnatural to many writers. Other things are now considered "stylistic choices," such as ending a sentence with a preposition, etc.

Our language is a living thing. Sometimes I tell people, do what "sounds" right to your ears. Especially true when you're writing dialogues or first person narrative.
 

jeffspock

Re: word count

Just had a discussion yesterday with a published author (six SF novels from Bantam).

The author said that the publisher was getting stricter with word counts, and would not accept anything over 120k (while in the past up to 150k was okay). A second author, with published short stories in the best pro markets (also SF), said they were given the same limits for their first novel (from TOR).

In both cases they said it was a pure ROI question--publishers had a hard time making profit on books over 120k.

So, while there are no hard and fast rules, from what little I know 120k seems to be a nice number to shoot for.
 

Kate Nepveu

Re: word count

More specifically, I believe it's a matter of the big chains saying "we will not stock books by non-mega-sellers with prices over $24.95." And length of the book is a factor in pricing.

(Source: various editors on a Boskone panel this year; Charlie Stross just now over on Usenet.)

Mind you, if you have a really great long book, what some places will do (Tor has done this, for instance) is just split it in two. This is mildly controversial among readers, I should add.

Anyway, this is a fairly recent development and the waters may change again, but fwiw.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: word count

As Kate mentioned, the chains have noticed real reader reluctance to buy a book by someone they've never heard of that's priced over around $25 (and reluctance among readers to buy books priced above $28 even among authors they've heard of and like).

When that's combined with the philosophy that some of the majors have expressed that "If it's worth publishing, it's worth publishing in hardcover," you can see a hit to the mega-doorstop novels.

That being said -- you need exactly as many words as it takes to tell your story. If you're over 120,000 words, and every one of them is a necessary word, go with that.
 

gp101

unique voice vs copy-cat

I've heard that I should read various authors and see how they work their magic (which I've done). I've also heard that emulating someone else's style initially, and working it till you find your own style and voice is helpful (have also done). I don't know of any way in which I can tell if my writing has evolved enough and is different enough from the writers I admire/study/emulate, and unless my beta readers have read those same writers, they won't be able to tell me how similar my style is to those writers either.

Short of hearing it from an agent, publisher, or (worst case) book critic, how can you figure out if you've finally stopped emulating and discovered your own voice? When does emulating someone else start becoming "influenced by" and stop becoming "copied"? One of the critics blurbs at the beginning of one of my favorite writer's books says something to the effect that his writing style is often copied, never equalled.

I don't want to be one of the copiers referred to there.

Do agents and publishers prefer a familiar but still unique voice, or something more of a dead-on copy of a current author's voice and style?
 

evanaharris

style

Well, most of the time it's not even a matter of TRYING to emulate, it's more of a matter of "you are what you eat". Read a lot of Hemingway, and you're going to start writing terse, short sentences. Read a lot of Lovecraft and it's going to get byzantine, and on and on.

I'm the same way with fiction vs. nonfiction. I read almost exclusively fiction because when I read nonfiction all I want to do is write essays and movie reviews and polemics.

The answer to "finding your style" is to read, a lot, from lots of different authors, and to write, a lot, and just roll with the punches. Eventually, you'll settle down into something that's comfortable, and I daresay that you won't have a hand in it at all.
 

madeya ru

Re: style

I've also heard that style is something that eventually just comes your way, like evan said, "you won't have a hand it in." You'll see it when it happens. And you'll love it when it happens.
 

JoannaC

Help me out of the trap of conversations!

Hi everyone

Sorry to change the topic on you, but...:)

It seems my new story is falling into the same trap the first one fell into about being nothing but conversations. There is plot, and things are happening, but it all seems to want to be conversations. I tried to have people do things, I am even at a fairly actiony part where this is a giant storm, but basically what happened was two of the characters got stranded by the storm, and they had a conversation. Then one of them left to go find some other people who were also trapped by the storm. He ran into another character who we have not seen for a dozen or so pages, and he had a conversation with him while they went looking for the guy's brother. Then they find the brother (along with the sister of the character they just left) and have a conversation with him about why he ran off and what he did. Then they go back to the house and the two sisters have a catching up conversation...and it just goes on and on. Every time something happens, it involves two or three conversations. I think they are good conversations, and my main reader doesn't seem bored yet. But I really need to learn how to write a story that is not only conversations! Any help?
 

HapiSofi

Re: word count

Maestro said:
"Reph, normally it is true, and one should use a subjuctive when using the "if" clause (or "as if") . But this rule has been relaxed in recent times -- and most consider subjuctives archaic."
The hell it has been, and the hell we do -- meaning no disrespect to yourself. But if that were true, I'm sure I would have heard about it by now.

Also:
"I'm just pointing out that many grammatical rules are relaxed in today's literary world. For example, subjunctives are sometimes viewed as archaic and unnatural to many writers. Other things are now considered "stylistic choices," such as ending a sentence with a preposition, etc."
Ending a sentence with a preposition is not a "stylistic choice". I'm not sure anything is. But it was a legitimate grammatical construction long before Chaucer's great-granny had gone on her first date, and it's been legitimate ever since.

You can split infinitives, too.
 

pianoman5

Re: style

I like Winston Churchill's rejoinder when he was criticised for ending a sentence with a preposition.

"From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put."
 

JimMorcombe

Re: Learn Writing with Uncle Jim

Uncle Jim

You've read widely, so I assume you've read a John Grisham Book or two. What do you think of his writing?

Doesn't he break a lot of the rules/suggestions you make?

" ...only words that reveal character, support the theme, and advance the plot belong in your novel..."

I get the feeling that if Grisham submitted the first few pages of on of his novels to you, you would tear it to shreds. He does too much stuff that doesn't advance the plot, introduces millions of names of characters that never get developed or even mentioned later, and so on.

And yet Grisham's stuff sells!

Nephew Jim
 

LiamJackson

Re: Help me out of the trap of conversations!

Nephew Jim, good question. I would like pose a question to you. What kept you turning the pages of JG's books?
 

Jules Hall

Search function

I know that the last of Grisham's books I read (Runaway Jury) startled me; the POV was sloppily handled (there was a section which I thought was from one character's POV that suddenly started talking about things that only made sense from another's perspective), and I think there were other "errors", too. But I think most of the text of the book did support the characters & plot well. I was left without an overwhelming sense of there being a theme, but then I often don't notice theme so I'm not sure how well he supported that. Yet, I think, above all, he told a good story.
 

Fresie

Re: Category

Thank you so much, Uncle Jim and Eraser! You won't believe how much your support meant to me. I feel as if my "wings" were stuck in something and now I'm finally free to write what I want without constantly feeling this internal editor peeking from behind my back.

Fritz Leiber's Conjure Wife has been marketed as fantasy, science fiction, horror, and romance at various times its publishing history.

That's also great news. I feel so much better now!!

Thank you!
 

detante

Re: Help me out of the trap of conversations!

Hello, all. Long time lurker, first time poster . . .


Joanna,

It sounds like you are comfortable writing dialogue. Maybe too comfortable. Try breaking out of that comfort zone by writing an entire scene without a single conversation. Temporarily pop the quotation mark key off of your keyboard, if necessary. :lol Then try writing a few scenes that mix dialogue with action. Hope that helps.

Best wishes,
Jen

p.s. Thanks to everyone that has contributed to the thread. Lots of useful lessons buried in these 97 pages.
 

HapiSofi

Re: style

PianoMan, you've gotten hold of one of the erroneous versions of that story that are in circulation. This is from the alt.usage.english FAQ:
Winston Churchill was editing a proof of one of his books, when he noticed that an editor had clumsily rearranged one of Churchill's sentences so that it wouldn't end with a preposition. Churchill scribbled in the margin, "This is the sort of English up with which I will not put."
 
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