Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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5bcarnies

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I think you made your point quite nicely.

And don't let being an expert on diapers and the art of putting ones foot in their mouth get you down. It'll pass. Trust me on that, I've got four daughters.
 

Elidibus

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And learn from this. The only lesson that is wasted is the one from which you learn nothing.

I just popped in to say I've learned more about writing in this particular thread (And this website as a whole) than I have ever learned in college.

And this was free.

Everyone in here is officially "Awesome"

That is all :-D
 

FOTSGreg

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I think I'm enough of an expert at putting my foot in my mouth. Dirty diapers, on the other hand, I'll let folks far more expert than myself handle.

While I did say "Action" up above, Uncle Jim put it far, far better.

Ken, I haven't read your book, but you've said yourself that there's nothing in the first 10 pages or so to hook an agent, editor, or reader's attention. You've also said that you want your beginning to be "good". Maybe, just maybe, it's good enough already. At this point I'd say quit worrying about making the beginning perfect and start submitting it. A single agent or editor does not the whole of the population make.

Get it out there. Get some feedback. Someone might actually like it and decide it's worth working with you on.

You never know until you try.
 

Calliopenjo

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Hi Uncle Jim,

It's stupid question time. I'm nearing the end of my story and I'm wondering how would I know if an epilogue is necessary. I've done prologues in the past, being a fantasy writer I think it comes along with the territory. But I've never done epilogues. I think the story would be okay without it. Ideas? Comments?
 

Ken Schneider

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I think I'm enough of an expert at putting my foot in my mouth. Dirty diapers, on the other hand, I'll let folks far more expert than myself handle.

While I did say "Action" up above, Uncle Jim put it far, far better.

Ken, I haven't read your book, but you've said yourself that there's nothing in the first 10 pages or so to hook an agent, editor, or reader's attention. You've also said that you want your beginning to be "good". Maybe, just maybe, it's good enough already. At this point I'd say quit worrying about making the beginning perfect and start submitting it. A single agent or editor does not the whole of the population make.

Get it out there. Get some feedback. Someone might actually like it and decide it's worth working with you on.

You never know until you try.

I said I don't think my first chapter is good enough to submit, not there's nothing in it to hook the agent or editor.

I only get ten pages of my first chapter to submit with the query. The ten pages before didn't seem to me to grab interest. Maybe it would have. I know the rewrite will.

I've been at this game for five years, and do have a couple of shorts published.

I've included the rough draft of the first paragraph. I think it draws some interest. How about you?

Wil was on his hands and knees again when he woke. The grass was torn from its roots revealing the bare ground, and his fingernails were buried in the dirt. Worms by the hundreds wiggled away from the spot, leaving him in a pristine, lifeless, patch of Earth. The other orphans watched from a distance.
 
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Judg

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slivered? slithered? Although worms don't slither, snakes do. It's quite a different motion.

Your paragraph certainly succeeds in awakening a bunch of questions, which is always a good thing.
 

Ken Schneider

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slivered? slithered? Although worms don't slither, snakes do. It's quite a different motion.

Your paragraph certainly succeeds in awakening a bunch of questions, which is always a good thing.

I said rough. Just fininsh rewrting last night, late.

But, I changed it to wiggled. Thanks.
 

Ken Schneider

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I always thought worms "wriggled".

No they wiggle. Unless you're Golum and you're talking about a rabbit.


The first paragraph tells me this.

We are introduced to a character, by name, presumably the MC.
Wil, has made something strange happen. The worms and pristine Earth.
He's at an orphanage.

Trying do a UJ on the paragraph. My apologies to Uncle Jim.
 

smsarber

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Ken, the dictionary defines "wriggle" as to and fro movement, like a worm. To move along by twisting and turning

Wiggle suggests no forward movement, wriggle does, in my opinion. For what it's worth...
 

smsarber

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It's your thread, and you would know best. But I would think that since finding and choosing the right word, not just settling for the one closest at hand, is such an important part of novel writing that it would fit here. But as always, what do I know, LOL.;):Shrug:

Are we going to play first page again soon? That always sets off good discussions.
 

euclid

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Did any of them invite you to resubmit the work after you'd made revisions?

No. I think one did by way of a form letter that said something about "Rework". Anyhow, there are only two really big agents that I'd be tempted to try again, so maybe I'll stick with the ones who haven't responded yet.

ETA: One guy read the whole book, of course, and he suggested that I re-do the first 50 pages. I did this but he hasn't come back since (2 months).
 
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euclid

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I thought the opening should create a bond between the reader and the MC and provide a strong element of tension relevant to the plot/theme of the book. I've rewritten my opening along those lines. Still not 100% happy with the first sentence, though...
 

James D. Macdonald

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I thought the opening should create a bond between the reader and the MC and provide a strong element of tension relevant to the plot/theme of the book.

That sounds a lot like something out of a how-to-write book.

Have you found this to be true of any published work you've ever read?
 

euclid

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That sounds a lot like something out of a how-to-write book.

Have you found this to be true of any published work you've ever read?

Yes, it's my interpretation of what I've been reading in how-to-write books. It seems fairly non-controversial, though. It must be important to make a connection (a bond) between MC and reader as early as possible. The reader has to care about the MC and what happens to him/her.

I have a number of examples from Maass's book. The Road, by Cormac McCarthy is one that I've actually got here.

In the case of my own book, Chapter 1 used to start with dialogue: The MC is being questioned by a policeman, following the discovery of a body. I have now added 300 words that make a huge difference, as the dialogue has much more meaning, now that the MC had introduced himself.

I think you are less than enamoured of how-to-write books (?) Time to publish your own, perhaps? :)

I had a look for "Logical Chess" but it's not available in the library. I'm pretty sure I read it aeons ago. I'm not sure I really need it, anyhow, as I have played chess at competition levels and I have several other books on chess strategy, notably Point Count Chess by Horowitz et al., and Nimzowitsch's (rare and wonderful) My System. Am I right in assuming your direction to read Logical Chess is aimed at people who don't actually play the game (much)?

I can see several problems with the analogy: First, chess is a battle between two opposing minds. Each of my moves will be countered by my opponent and his move choices will influence mine. Where's the opposing mind in writing fiction? Second, a game of chess is not predetermined. None of the moves (apart from the first) can be written down beforehand except as conditionals (if he does this, then I'll do that). I have to have a detailed plot outline in place before I start to write. I can't write a book by making it up, one chapter at a time. Third, in chess, you can't move any of your main pieces (characters) without first moving one of your minor ones. (The knights are exceptions, of course). Fourth, which of your chess pieces stands for your main character? The king? He hardly moves before the endgame. The queen? It is considered unwise to move her too early. The rooks are no good; They're hemmed in at the corners until the mid-game. So, we're left with the bishops and the knights. That's four equal characters...

I suppose I'm missing the point as usual...
 

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If I understand correctly (which is never a given), I think Uncle Jim's chess tie-in is less a literal reference to the elements in a story and more about understanding the abilities and limitations of your pieces (characters & events) and putting them in positions in which they can move the story forward. That's my layman's take on it, anyway.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Yes, it's my interpretation of what I've been reading in how-to-write books. It seems fairly non-controversial, though. It must be important to make a connection (a bond) between MC and reader as early as possible. The reader has to care about the MC and what happens to him/her.

All that's required for the reader to bond to a character is for that character to appear. Readers are like baby ducks that way: they'll imprint on and follow the first moving object they see. That's why it's good for the first moving character the readers see to be the main character.

I have a number of examples from Maass's book. The Road, by Cormac McCarthy is one that I've actually got here.

The road is a dead-standard piece of post-apocalyptic science fiction. The difference between McCarthy's piece and any random Baen book in the same subgenre is if it were published by Baen they'd have cleaned up the punctuation and spelling, and it wouldn't have been reviewed in The New Yorker.

In the case of my own book, Chapter 1 used to start with dialogue: The MC is being questioned by a policeman, following the discovery of a body. I have now added 300 words that make a huge difference, as the dialogue has much more meaning, now that the MC had introduced himself.

We've just finished several threads on starting novels with dialog elsewhere in this forum (and I'm sure it'll come around again). The reason you should think carefully about starting a book with dialog is that it's very easy to do badly.
I think you are less than enamoured of how-to-write books (?) Time to publish your own, perhaps? :)

Yeah, someday. Meanwhile, read back through the couple-hundred pages of this thread.


I had a look for "Logical Chess" but it's not available in the library. I'm pretty sure I read it aeons ago. I'm not sure I really need it, anyhow, as I have played chess at competition levels and I have several other books on chess strategy, notably Point Count Chess by Horowitz et al., and Nimzowitsch's (rare and wonderful) My System. Am I right in assuming your direction to read Logical Chess is aimed at people who don't actually play the game (much)?

No, my direction to read Logical Chess is aimed at people who want to learn to write. In brief: It explains every move. The goal is to have a reason for everything you do. You need to put your pieces (and your pawns) in the places where they are most likely to do you some good later on, even if you don't know now what that good will be.

I can see several problems with the analogy: First, chess is a battle between two opposing minds. Each of my moves will be countered by my opponent and his move choices will influence mine. Where's the opposing mind in writing fiction?

The usual name for the opposing mind in writing fiction is "conflict." You, the author, are making it tough for your characters to reach their goal.
Second, a game of chess is not predetermined.

It totally is. Either white will win, or black will win, or there will be a draw.

None of the moves (apart from the first) can be written down beforehand except as conditionals (if he does this, then I'll do that). I have to have a detailed plot outline in place before I start to write. I can't write a book by making it up, one chapter at a time.

Oh really? And where exactly does that plot outline come from?

I have a great anecdote about Blackburne that's relevant here, but which I'll save for another time.

I can see I'm going to have to import a post from another thread and disassemble it here.

Third, in chess, you can't move any of your main pieces (characters) without first moving one of your minor ones. (The knights are exceptions, of course).

In chess the game doesn't start until something moves. In novels, the same.

Fourth, which of your chess pieces stands for your main character? The king? He hardly moves before the endgame. The queen? It is considered unwise to move her too early. The rooks are no good; They're hemmed in at the corners until the mid-game. So, we're left with the bishops and the knights. That's four equal characters...

None of them stand for your main character. Or, they're all main characters. If you were to ask the apothecary in Romeo and Juliette, "Who's the main character?" he'd say, "There's this apothecary, y'see....." (Next assignment: Watch Shakespeare in Love.) The characters aren't the point of your novel anyway: The climax is the point. The moment when someone says "Checkmate!" That is the point.


I suppose I'm missing the point as usual...

Perhaps. You're familiar with Alice in Wonderland?
 

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It's stupid question time. I'm nearing the end of my story and I'm wondering how would I know if an epilogue is necessary.

You feel like it.

Your beta readers ask for it.

Your editor suggests it.

Think of your epilogue as your curtain calls. It's removed from the climax. It presents a different view of the characters. And ... Some of your audience is already headed for the exits.
 

FOTSGreg

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Uncle Jim wrote in response to a chess analogy for main characters, None of them stand for your main character. Or, they're all main characters. If you were to ask the apothecary in Romeo and Juliette, "Who's the main character?" he'd say, "There's this apothecary, y'see....." (Next assignment: Watch Shakespeare in Love.) The characters aren't the point of your novel anyway: The climax is the point. The moment when someone says "Checkmate!" That is the point.

I would posit that all of White or Black's pieces are your main character and your antagonist(s), respectively. Each and every piece represents some small portion of the character and his or her personality. Every move represents one of that character's actions in a work.

The job of the writer is to place enough blocks in the way of White's moves that Black does not seem like a totally impotent opponent and actually chalenges White to be daring, to do things that Black simply cannot predict.

White needs to be a Grand Master or incredibly, incredibly lucky and count on Black making one helluva' mistake because Black IS a Grand Master if the writer is good enough and throws enough obstacles in the way of White's victory.

In a novel, a loss by White or even a stalemate simply isn't good enough in most cases.

Or, Uncle Jim, am I completely off base?

(The above assumes that White is the protagonist and a novel where the protagonist eventually wins out in the end)
 
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