Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

euclid said:

Hey Smsarber: How do those interviews work?

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I'm not Steve, but I'll answer:

It started here, euclid. Those who wished to participate chose a subject or two or four, and asked them a whole bunch of questions about themselves. We then posted the results, all on the same day.

If you missed the first go-round, don't worry. I think there's a movement afoot to do it all again some time.

Perle_Rare said:

I knew the moment I hit "post", that my post would come back to haunt me! Someone, please remind me to turn my tongue in my mouth seven times before I start typing!

Anyway, this author is published and I'm not. Heck, I don't even have a completed manuscript yet. So this particular author is way ahead of me in that department and there's nothing indicating her other books aren't amazing novels.

Bottom line, I choose not to tell... and if I'd been wiser, I would have avoided the original post in the first place... sigh... Live and learn...

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Live and learn is right, Perle. Just because she's published doesn't mean she's perfect, and I always find it instructive to pick out things I'd change in bestsellers to make them, IMHO, just a little bit better.

Now, since she's a best-selling author, it might be instructive to go back and read the book again, this time looking for what it is about her books that attracts readers. What is she doing right?

All to often, we take criticism to mean we have to find something wrong with what we're criticizing, but criticism means looking at something critically, not nit-picking to find out what's wrong.

Yeshanu said:

Just because she's published doesn't mean she's perfect....

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Many years ago, when I did reviews in an apazine, I used to end each review with "...but (s)he's a better writer than I am; (s)he's published."

Seriously, no biggie. You don't have to be published to have an opinion about a piece of published fiction. Thousands and thousands of people who aren't published, never will be, and don't want to be, have opinions about published works. Every single day.

They're called "readers." They're our masters.

Now, since she's a best-selling author, it might be instructive to go back and read the book again, this time looking for what it is about her books that attracts readers. What is she doing right?

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It might be more instructive to read that author's first published work.

Like the old saying goes one mans trash another mans treasure.

Plain and simple you may not like it but someone else out there will. Don't try to stress on it just create your own idividual work the best you can and worry about that.

As to opinions its okay to have them about anything you see in public, its out there so its fair game.

James D. Macdonald said:

Thousands and thousands of people who aren't published, never will be, and don't want to be, have opinions about published works. Every single day.

They're called "readers." They're our masters.

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True. But a few weeks ago, I read a thread here at AW where people were bashing Christopher Paolini and his latest book. Strangely enough, the majority of bashers freely admitted they hadn't read and had no plan to read said book. That left a sour taste in my mouth.

My post was meant in a "I read a random bestseller and was amazed at [insert technical details]" way.To publicize the title and author would, I think, lead too easily to book / author bashing and that wasn't my intent.

James D. Macdonald said:

It might be more instructive to read that author's first published work.

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I'm going to look for that. It would, indeed, be quite enlightening.

Wolvel said:

Like the old saying goes one mans trash another mans treasure.

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I fully agree!

Actually. I recieved an email offering all authors, published or non published free interviews which can help them with promoting both their books and themselves as authors.

What do you think?

BlueLucario said:

Actually. I recieved an email offering all authors, published or non published free interviews which can help them with promoting both their books and themselves as authors.

What do you think?

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Nothing that comes unsolicited by email can ever possibly be legitimate. Not in this lifetime or in any other. That's what I think.

Perle_Rare said:

True. But a few weeks ago, I read a thread here at AW where people were bashing Christopher Paolini and his latest book. Strangely enough, the majority of bashers freely admitted they hadn't read and had no plan to read said book. That left a sour taste in my mouth.

My post was meant in a "I read a random bestseller and was amazed at [insert technical details]" way.To publicize the title and author would, I think, lead too easily to book / author bashing and that wasn't my intent.



I'm going to look for that. It would, indeed, be quite enlightening.



I fully agree!

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I haven't read Brisingr, and have no plans to read it, even though we have copies of all three books in the house.

I don't like Christopher Paolini's writing. I say this not because I've read any of his books, because in the strictest sense I haven't; but because I tried to read Eragon and couldn't. I tried one of his books, didn't like the writing and won't read another because of it.

That's because I ran into what I see as one of the biggest writer-killers out there: having read a book by that author before and NOT liked it.

My own take is that different writers are skilled at different aspects of writing, and no two readers apply the same importance to each of those aspects. I think that best-selling but critically panned writers like Christopher Paolini do some things well, and other things less well. Their readers are attracted to what they do well, while their detractors can't get past the things they don't do as well.

There you go: my two cents.

James D. Macdonald said:

It might be more instructive to read that author's first published work.

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Good point.

* goes back to what she does best: lurking *

Dave.C.Robinson said:

I haven't read Brisingr, and have no plans to read it, even though we have copies of all three books in the house.

I don't like Christopher Paolini's writing. I say this not because I've read any of his books, because in the strictest sense I haven't; but because I tried to read Eragon and couldn't. I tried one of his books, didn't like the writing and won't read another because of it.

That's because I ran into what I see as one of the biggest writer-killers out there: having read a book by that author before and NOT liked it.

My own take is that different writers are skilled at different aspects of writing, and no two readers apply the same importance to each of those aspects. I think that best-selling but critically panned writers like Christopher Paolini do some things well, and other things less well. Their readers are attracted to what they do well, while their detractors can't get past the things they don't do as well.

There you go: my two cents.

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It may just be Eragon I try to read over Christmas, because I'm curious. I picked it up a while ago, and couldn't get past the first paragraph, which is truly awful.

But I also read the first paragraph of Brisingr, and found he'd improved quite a bit, if one can judge a book by its first paragraph.

I'm very curious about this fairly new young adult market that seems to be springing up. It's huge--it's made millionaires of JK Rowling, Stephanie Meyer, and Christopher Paolini. Tamora Pierce is up there, too, though not at the top, and I'm curious about that, because technically, she's the best writer of the lot. The writer of the Artemis Fowl series is in touch with these readers, too.

These 12-year-old to early-twenties girls and women are huge fans of books. They consume fantasy like chocolate. I work with them. They don't come to work without a book in their hand. I have one of them at home. If she's not online or with her boyfriend, she's reading. You never see them without a book. New Moon or Harry Potter or Brisingr or whatever's on tap this month.

I want to write for that market. I think I can do well at it. But it differs from the adult fantasy market in subtle ways, gender being one. Technical facility takes back seat to ????

Story? Character?

Still trying to figure out what makes these books tick...

Anyhow, if anyone has any insights, I'd appreciate it. I'll stop rambling now...

I completely understand about the size of the market, we have a sixteen-year-old girl at home who just devoured the entire Twilight series in under a week-- then turned around to reread the last one DESPITE the fact the ending sucked (her opinion not mine).

I don't know what it is for certain, though I don't think it's technical skill. My best guess is that it's something I want to call 'resonance.' These books are written in such a way that they resonate with the teenage experience. I think they put thoughts in their character's heads that are very similar if not identical to the thoughts their readers have, and that's one of the big draws.

They're also often wish-fulfillment stories, and while that may not appeal to adults, the teenage mindset is very different. Put a character they connect with in a wish-fulfillment situation and you draw them in like flies to honey; at least that's my guess.

As to Tamora Pierce's relative lack of success, it may be that she's too technically proficient a writer. Technical smoothness may not go over quite as well with readers whose emotions are dialed up to eleven.

Just my opinion of course.

That kind of reminds me of Judy Blume. She wrote a lot of different books with a diverse subject matter, but it was still mostly teenage slush. NOT MEANT DEROGATORY IN ANY WAY. Anyway, here was a forty year old woman who had no problem geeting into teenager's heads.
James Patterson is of course known for his crime thrillers, but he has a teeny-bopper series, the Maximum Ride series. I loved the first Max Ride book. But he didn't tone down the technicality of his writing for it. So I don't think the technical aspect is the issue. It's just knowing, again, how to get into a teeage mind. I will humbly step down from my soap box now.

Yeshanu said:

I'm very curious about this fairly new young adult market that seems to be springing up. It's huge--it's made millionaires of JK Rowling, Stephanie Meyer, and Christopher Paolini. Tamora Pierce is up there, too, though not at the top, and I'm curious about that, because technically, she's the best writer of the lot. The writer of the Artemis Fowl series is in touch with these readers, too.

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I'm very curious too. I once had an idea for a YA book, but for a much younger age, I think. Think Goosebumps and how big they were.

My 15-year-old sister is obsessed with Twilight. She gobbled up Harry Potter. It's true, this demographic is far larger than any other, and the popularity of these books to teens, seems to spread. Think of all the adults you know that read Harry Potter after all of the teens were already raving about it.

Dave.C.Robinson said:

My own take is that different writers are skilled at different aspects of writing, and no two readers apply the same importance to each of those aspects. I think that best-selling but critically panned writers like Christopher Paolini do some things well, and other things less well. Their readers are attracted to what they do well, while their detractors can't get past the things they don't do as well.

There you go: my two cents.

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Worth more than two cents. You've nailed it. I've slogged through a bestseller or two, gritting my teeth, trying to figure out what they did right. Wish fulfillment is a huge "right" and not just for teenagers. What is half of Tom Clancy's stuff, if not wish fulfillment for conservatives? Or Conan the Barbarian for wannabe muscle men? Or Danielle Steele for bored women? Or... but you get the idea. It makes for great sales, if not for great literature.

Dave.C.Robinson said:

I completely understand about the size of the market, we have a sixteen-year-old girl at home who just devoured the entire Twilight series in under a week-- then turned around to reread the last one DESPITE the fact the ending sucked (her opinion not mine).

I don't know what it is for certain, though I don't think it's technical skill. My best guess is that it's something I want to call 'resonance.' These books are written in such a way that they resonate with the teenage experience. I think they put thoughts in their character's heads that are very similar if not identical to the thoughts their readers have, and that's one of the big draws.

They're also often wish-fulfillment stories, and while that may not appeal to adults, the teenage mindset is very different. Put a character they connect with in a wish-fulfillment situation and you draw them in like flies to honey; at least that's my guess.

As to Tamora Pierce's relative lack of success, it may be that she's too technically proficient a writer. Technical smoothness may not go over quite as well with readers whose emotions are dialed up to eleven.

Just my opinion of course.

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I havn't read Paolini or Meyer, but now I'm getting very curious. My local Barnes and Noble has two 20-foot windows on the interior hallway of the mall. One window has nothing but Brisinger stacked like cordwood and the other has more Brisinger and the rest of the window is stacked full of Meyer's books.

Arkie said:

I havn't read Paolini or Meyer, but now I'm getting very curious. My local Barnes and Noble has two 20-foot windows on the interior hallway of the mall. One window has nothing but Brisinger stacked like cordwood and the other has more Brisinger and the rest of the window is stacked full of Meyer's books.

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And I'll be totally honest and say that one day I want it to be MY books that are stacked up like cordwood in the windows of major bookstores.

I think Judg is right--wish fulfillment is a big thing amongst readers of best-sellers. I know that for me, I do like a happy ending, with things neatly tied up.

But the ending of the last book in the Twilight series was just a little too neat, and a little too easy for me. After reading the last book (but not the other three) I can easily see the appeal of the series. But she did make it far too easy on the characters in that last book. They should have had to fight for their happily ever after. And I think most of her readers, while still loyal, recognize that fault in the book.

Judg said:

Worth more than two cents. You've nailed it. I've slogged through a bestseller or two, gritting my teeth, trying to figure out what they did right. Wish fulfillment is a huge "right" and not just for teenagers. What is half of Tom Clancy's stuff, if not wish fulfillment for conservatives? Or Conan the Barbarian for wannabe muscle men? Or Danielle Steele for bored women? Or... but you get the idea. It makes for great sales, if not for great literature.

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Modern Conan pastiches, definitely wish-fulfillment, Howard's original stuff has more to it.

Dave.C.Robinson said:

Modern Conan pastiches, definitely wish-fulfillment, Howard's original stuff has more to it.

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Well it might have been wish fulfilment for Howard. This is a man who killed himself because he was told his mother was on her deathbed. You could make a case that Conan was the ultimate in Anti-Mummy's Boy.

Dave.C.Robinson said:

As to Tamora Pierce's relative lack of success, it may be that she's too technically proficient a writer. Technical smoothness may not go over quite as well with readers whose emotions are dialed up to eleven.

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Er. Have you read Tamora Pierce? She's not averse to emotion going up to eleven -- hell, she gets me there

I'd guess her issue, insofar as she has an issue, has been mostly publicity. I've yet to put a Tamora Pierce or Diana Wynne Jones book into the hands of a teen and have them not like it; they've just never heard of 'em if they're not already SF/F readers checking those shelves.

And lately her covers have had more mass appeal I think, but the earlier round, though I like the art, were very much "This Is A Sword And Sorcery Book"

Also. I heard her on a panel at Wiscon this year, and she was saying that... I think it was the Texas librarians?... had a tendency to freak out about the subject matter of her books, which I'm guessing doesn't help their sales. But she writes what she'll write, even if she could get better sales by fluffing the books out.

So... yeah, lots of factors involved here.

IdiotsRUs said:

Well it might have been wish fulfilment for Howard. This is a man who killed himself because he was told his mother was on her deathbed. You could make a case that Conan was the ultimate in Anti-Mummy's Boy.

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Yes he did kill himself shortly before (a matter of hours) Hester Howard died; but that does not mean he killed himself because he couldn't face a life without her. From his letters and conversations there is evidence that he'd always intended to die by suicide and that he simply waited until he was sure his mother no longer needed his services as a caregiver before taking his own life.

He was a much better and more rounded writer than people like Christopher Paolini or Stephenie Meyer, and the Conan stories were only a small fraction of his output, which spanned multiple genres.

Yes he did kill himself shortly before (a matter of hours) Hester Howard died; but that does not mean he killed himself because he couldn't face a life without her. From his letters and conversations there is evidence that he'd always intended to die by suicide and that he simply waited until he was sure his mother no longer needed his services as a caregiver before taking his own life.

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Oh I wasn't saying I agreed with that view. But I was saying that I have seen that case put forward as to why he wrote such macho men, and that a case could be made for Conan being his wish-fulfilment. Because either way, his mother had a HUGE role in his life, far more than many grown men. It might have even been for him 'If my mother had not been so ill I could have been...'

I mean I don't know about you, but I write stories that fulfil me. Which means that there probably is an element of wish fulfilment in it for me. Yes, I wish I lived in a world with dragons!

Personally I don't really care why someone wrote something, only if I enjoy it. And I love the Conan stories so much I almost named my daughter Valeria

Shweta said:

And lately her covers have had more mass appeal I think, but the earlier round, though I like the art, were very much "This Is A Sword And Sorcery Book"

Also. I heard her on a panel at Wiscon this year, and she was saying that... I think it was the Texas librarians?... had a tendency to freak out about the subject matter of her books, which I'm guessing doesn't help their sales. But she writes what she'll write, even if she could get better sales by fluffing the books out.

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Cover art is a big issue here--the old-style sword-and-sorcery covers were meant to attract male readers, and that's not who these books are aimed at.

As for subject matter, it's entirely true that her books cover more "earthy" topics (like menstruation and sex) than the popular ones.

But another problem might be her tendency to make the female MC the only MC. I love her books, but when I asked my daughter (who's twenty) what the appeal of Twilight and such books were to females her age, she mentioned that the male MC was sensitive and moody, as well as being strong in his own way. Some of Tamora's books don't even have a male MC, and those that do have him take a definite backseat to the female.

Thinking on the page here, but I think I may be on to something...

The white room cliche

Hi Uncle Jim,

Happy Holidays! I was wondering. If the MC wakes up and notices white bed linens that the MC was sleeping on, is that the same thing as waking up in a white room?

Calliopenjo said:

Hi Uncle Jim,

If the MC wakes up and notices white bed linens that the MC was sleeping on, is that the same thing as waking up in a white room?

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Not if the linens are white, but the room is painted tapioca, eggshell, blue, green, etc... Our room's white, but our linens are flowered, as well as the comforter (not my idea, blame my family, it was a gift).
Happy Holidays to you as well!