Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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BlueLucario

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The last book i've read was Ender's Game.

Going to read Speaker for the dead by Orson Scott Card.
 

CaroGirl

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I'm reading my 23rd book since January. Spending an hour commuting on the bus is giving me tons more time to read. It's the only benefit, really. I've read such novels as: Lottery, The Heart-Shaped Box, Specimen Days, I just finished The Jade Peony, and right now I'm reading Remembering the Bones by Frances Itani.

I believe you absolutely cannot be a strong writer unless you're an avid reader.
 

Calliopenjo

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Reading

Well, I find a lot of stories on the internet. My interest lies with a genre that I know is not often found at Barnes & Noble or Borders. As for reading a story from a bookstore, that would be no.

September: Melting Ice by Alex Tryst.
August: Seduction of Laura by S. Anne Gardener.
July: Staying in the Game by Nann Dunne.
June: A place to Dance by Ali Vali.

That would be the most recent selection of stories/books I've read. During that time there was Define Destiny by JM Dragon, Double Play by Cruise, and Storm Surge by Melissa Good.
 
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Calliopenjo

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Question about Dialog

Hi Uncle Jim,

I have a bit of a problem. I guess. The bottom line is that I've been told that the dialogue needs work. But the thing is, I need to cram as much information as I can into the dialogue to show how the main character thinks. To showcase her narrow view point.

1) Her opinion on gays and lesbians.
2) Her opinion on "lefties."
3) Her opinion about herself.

My problem, I need suggestions on where to start to fix it. I need for it to happen in a short span of time.
==========
Deidre spoke up first. “Look Elise, I’m telling you, Leslie is not in our group anymore, because she told me herself that she is now dating Lisa.”

Elise replied happily “Oh Deidre, this Iced Frappuccino is simply delicious. It is so much better than Starbucks. Aren’t you going to finish yours? I still don’t know how two women can satisfy each other. It is far beyond my comprehension.”

“No no, a proper lady never finishes her meal. I will never be with another woman. Never. No, I require the attentions of a delicious man. A mixture of Tom Cruise, Patrick Swayze, and Matthew McConaughey, you put those men together you have my man. Mmmm, so sweet.”

“Oh would you stop that. Your nanny will get the wrong idea. Besides that, whatever happened to finding a man that has intelligence and a good soul.”

“Nanny. Nanny? Since when do I require the attention of a nanny at the age of twenty-one. You do remember my twenty-first birthday party. And all of that is fine if that’s what you are looking for.”

“How could I forget. You said the party was going to be on your boat. I was expecting a fishing boat. It was far from a boat, it was an ocean liner. . . at least as big as one. My family is pretty well off. I mean we do live in Kostbar Gates, but we have a tiny row boat compared to yours. We have a ninety foot yacht after all.”

Deidre smiled in satisfaction, remembering all that had happened. “It does help that the family’s holdings are very large. That was the night that Robert and I had sex in my room. Too bad he can’t be with me anymore.”

“You know, I was wondering about that. What happened?”

“Daddy bought the company that Robert was supposed to inherit. It would have been nice to be the wife of a racetrack owner. I can imagine the wonderful publicity it would cause. It would become the headlines of every major newspaper. I was hurt that daddy took away my dream. Then I got over it.”

“How did you do that?”

“Easy. It’s a seven letter word that begins with the letter ‘D’.”

“Dollar?”

“No, not even close but that does help.”

“That’s the only seven letter ‘D’ word I know. What is it then?”

“Dollar is a six letter word and the word is Derrick.”

“Derrick? As in Derrick Draper the son of the State Senator? That Derrick?”

“That would be the one. It’s marvelous publicity. I can see the headlines. The senator’s son and his new wife attending his father’s party. Wouldn’t that be delicious? He is so large which makes me look like the perfectly petite princess that I am. I have to look perfect in all of my clothes, especially this bikini.”

“You don’t have anything to worry about. After all, you’re not like Helen Masters with the build of a football player, and just how tall is Derrick?”

“About as tall as daddy, remember that daddy needs to duck a bit before entering a room. I don’t know why you mentioned Helen Masters, because she is nothing but a Neanderthal, intelligence and all. She writes with her left hand. Everybody knows that people of intelligence write with the proper hand.”

Elise laughed at the mental image of Helen as a true Neanderthal. “Yeah that is tall. How about. . .”

Deidre answered her Blackberry. “Mother texted me that we have a family meeting, something of some urgency has arisen. I wonder if Bill Gates will be coming over for dinner, maybe the upcoming liberal presidential hopeful, Barry Wicker. But then, the senator is always asking for money and daddy does like to contribute.”

Both stood up from their seats. Deidre’s head barely came up to Elise’s shoulder; they walked side by side into the house. “It’s a good thing you’re leading the way to the front door. I still need help to find your suite the house is so huge. The Fantasy Channel said next to the White House; it’s the largest house in the United States.”

“That’s because they only saw a small portion of the house. Be sure to ask for Reggie. He’ll take you to the front gate without a worry. That is unless you would rather walk?”

“Uh, no thanks, I don’t have the endurance to run the marathon yet.”

“Ta ta then Elise.” Deidre stood at the door waving goodbye to her friend. As soon as door closed “Alfred!”
===========
 
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geardrops

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I know you asked Jim, but I'll chime in with my own answer. We'll see if Jim agrees :)

I need to cram as much information as I can into the dialogue to show how the main character thinks.

Emphasis is mine.

I think that right there is your first problem. Don't use dialogue as a method to cram information into the reader's brain. It's meant to be a conversation, like what between two humans. Dialogue naturally communicates--it's what it's there for, to communicate between two people. Let it do what it does, and bear in mind what would need to be said between two people. For instance, two good friends wouldn't have to say "So my boyfriend, whose name is Reginald..." They would know these things.

Reading over your sample, folks don't usually talk like what you wrote.

There's some overwriting. Parse down your words. Make them work. You don't have to repeat names so much. Avoid adverbs for the sentences, make the words and actions of the character define how things are said.

For instance (and this isn't the best example but it's what I've got on short notice):

He replied tersely, "I'll be leaving now."

versus

His silverware clattered against his plate. "I'll be leaving now."

Also, the Frappuccino is a Starbucks drink. You can't get a Frappuccino anywhere else. It's like trying to get a BigMac at a Burger King.

Don't attack the reader with facts. Let the reader pick them up. Instead of repeating the fact that she's twenty-one twice (first with saying it, second with referencing the birthday party) you could just say something like "Nanny? At my age?" You can drop the specific age later, and you really only need to drop it once.

Also, you need to learn how to correctly punctuate dialogue. And you'll likely get more help in SYW.

Hope that helps :)
 
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BlueLucario

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I know you asked Jim, but I'll chime in with my own answer. We'll see if Jim agrees :)



Emphasis is mine.

I think that right there is your first problem. Don't use dialogue as a method to cram information into the reader's brain. It's meant to be a conversation, like what between two humans. Dialogue naturally communicates--it's what it's there for, to communicate between two people. Let it do what it does, and bear in mind what would need to be said between two people. For instance, two good friends wouldn't have to say "So my boyfriend, whose name is Reginald..." They would know these things.


Hope that helps :)

Dempsey took the words right out of my mouth. Curse you! Each quote there is just too tedious. Reread your quotes there and ask yourself if people really talk like this. If you have even the slightest of doubts then you need to change it.

I wanted to ask this question, but I didn't want to make a thread about this. I don't want to start a debate over something so unimportant.

I know someone on this forum made this statement : Keep in mind that not everyone can create interesting characters.

I am not stating names or where it is. You'll have to look it up yourself.

Do you think this statement is true? It sounded very discouraging, but she might be right. I spent 4 months thinking about that, and I never had the courage to ask that. :(

EDIT: Hey, not to be nitpicky but did you just call Calliopenjo, Jim?
 
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FennelGiraffe

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I have a bit of a problem.

First, what dempsey said. Too much information crammed in, and people don't talk like that.

Second, they're talking heads in a blank room. Until the very end, they don't have bodies attached to their necks. They don't interact with their environment. They don't even have an environment.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Go, you!

----------

Now, Calliopenjo, the dialog question:

Don't try to make dialog do too much, and don't attempt to make one scene do too much.

All of the things you mention (showing narrow world-view, etc.) should come out organically from many scenes, as you grow the character. "I need for it to happen in a short span of time." For heaven's sake, why?
 

Yeshanu

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Okay.

To be a writer you must be a reader.

What's the last book you read?

When?

It always floors me when I find out that the last book someone read was "in July" or last year or something...

I go to the library about every three weeks, and seldom come home with fewer than five books. Fiction or non-fiction, whatever takes my fancy.

Read Yes Man in preparation for the movie release, devoured a book called Under Pressure: Rescuing Childhood from the Culture of Hyper-Parenting, and laughed my way through British History for Dummies.

Tomorrow I think it's time to return those and get new ones... :D
 

Perle_Rare

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I have a bit of a problem. I guess. The bottom line is that I've been told that the dialogue needs work. But the thing is, I need to cram as much information as I can into the dialogue to show how the main character thinks. To showcase her narrow view point.

1) Her opinion on gays and lesbians.
2) Her opinion on "lefties."
3) Her opinion about herself.

My problem, I need suggestions on where to start to fix it. I need for it to happen in a short span of time.

Calliopenjo,

I'll add to the other feedback you received. FennelGiraffe put her finger right on the issue. There's voices in a room but no personality (other than the one expressed through words) and no action. Most people in life express their opinions on things through their actions and reactions. From the first line of the book, you can show your MC's opinions of herself and her limitless wealth by the way she moves through her world. You don't, and shouldn't, need to do it through dialog. Otherwise, you end up with the "as you know Bob" syndrome. I get a bit of that from your sample dialog above. Very little of what is said between your two characters is really news to the other. It "feels" like you've put it there specifically for the reader's benefit and that's a big turn-off for many readers.

I'd also be curious to know whose point of view this scene was written in. I felt like I was hopping from one head to the other in terms of seeing the characters' unspoken thoughts. That was unsettling.

Just my 2cc's worth.
 

Sailor Kenshin

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It always floors me when I find out that the last book someone read was "in July" or last year or something...

I go to the library about every three weeks, and seldom come home with fewer than five books. Fiction or non-fiction, whatever takes my fancy.

Read Yes Man in preparation for the movie release, devoured a book called Under Pressure: Rescuing Childhood from the Culture of Hyper-Parenting, and laughed my way through British History for Dummies.

Tomorrow I think it's time to return those and get new ones... :D

I'm too lazy to go to the liberry. That's what thrift stores and yard sales are for! :ROFL:
 

DreamWeaver

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I'm too lazy to go to the liberry. That's what thrift stores and yard sales are for! :ROFL:
I'm too unorganized to go to the library--no matter my good intentions, I eventually let a book go seriously overdue and have to pay big bucks. I think of the bookstore (thrift store/yard sale) as a library where you can take as long as you want to read, don't have to return the books and there are no late fees :D.

That said, I tend to have several books in various stages of being read at any one time. I am currently reading Le Vicomte de Bragelonne, Vol I (Dumas), A Night in the Lonesome October (Zelazny), and Saltation (Lee & Miller, online serialized first draft). I just finished The Story of Edgar Sawtelle (Wroblewski).
 

BlueLucario

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I wanted to ask this question, but I didn't want to make a thread about this. I don't want to start a debate over something so unimportant.

I know someone on this forum made this statement : Keep in mind that not everyone can create interesting characters.

I am not stating names or where it is. You'll have to look it up yourself.

Do you think this statement is true? It sounded very discouraging, but she might be right. I spent 4 months thinking about that, and I never had the courage to ask that. :(

Hoping no one over looked this. :)
 

euclid

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Hi

Stephen King "Duma Key"
For all who are interested I just got back from a stay in the hospital. But I did survive my three year sober anniversary.

Welcome back. I never noticed you were gone! And congrats on your 3 year anniversary.

What's that in your fingers in your avatar? It looks like an oyster.

Well done again. ;)
 

CaroGirl

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Hoping no one over looked this. :)
Of course not everyone can create interesting characters. Heck, most people in this world struggle to write a coherent grocery list. Now, if you're talking about novelists aspiring to publication, yes, I agree there too. I might be one of them. I know I write well, but I might not write well enough. I might not write character well enough.

Why would you think that everyone who's ever tried to write a novel was able to write interesting characters?
 

smsarber

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Welcome back. I never noticed you were gone! And congrats on your 3 year anniversary.

What's that in your fingers in your avatar? It looks like an oyster.

Well done again. ;)
Jellyfish. We were in Florida a week before the storms hit. (Of course, the jelly was no longer alive, but it made for a cool pic.)
 

BlueLucario

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I don't know. The statement sounded to me like this person can't make an interesting character and probably never will.

Wow...I knew that was a dumb question.
 

General Tso

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untangling Celtic knotwork

The last book I finished is called Land of Mist and Snow. You should all check it out. I finished it 2 weeks ago.
The book I'm in the middle of right now is Roth's The Plot Against America.

I'll let that serve as an introduction - I'm new ... to posting anyway. I have my first big question and there is no one's opinion I value more for this than Uncle Jim's. Everyone else is of course more than welcome etc. etc.

My plot outline follows 5 or 6 viewpoint characters. They are all connected in various ways at various points in the sequence of events. As I was constructing this, I thought perhaps I should write every scene that follows Character A through to the end of the story. Then I would write every scene that follows Character B through to the end of the story, excepting the scenes involving both characters, which I would have already written. Then I would proceed with Character C and so on until I essentially have 5 or 6 complete stories. The final procedure would of course be a matter of weaving them back together into a single narrative.

The reasoning behind this is that I could maintain a more continuous thought process and give each viewpoint character my full dedication. Celtic knotwork for the obsessive compulsive, no? Does this sound like a potentially rewarding strategy or am I setting myself up for complications?
 

Yeshanu

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I don't know. The statement sounded to me like this person can't make an interesting character and probably never will.

Wow...I knew that was a dumb question.

If someone thinks they can't make an interesting character, then they never will. Like any craft, writing is not something that you either can do or you can't. It's something you develop and work at and get better at, but if you give up at the outset, you'll never get better.

As far as "dumb questions" go, that was far from dumb. (I won't generalize as some do and say there are no dumb questions, but I will say if you don't already know the answer, then a question isn't dumb...)
 

smsarber

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inner voice

Uncle Jim, I have a burning question. I think I may be on to something, or maybe it's just me. Okay, when you write, do you have the "inner voice"? I don't mean your normal narrative voice, the one you hear when you read something, but kind of an outsider's voice. One telling you the story. I get that when I'm in a good flow. I get it when I'm not, but it doesn't seem as strong. I'm not saying that kind of thing is an essential part of writing, but I think it may be an essential part of MY writing. Anyone else have similar quirks?
 

Sailor Kenshin

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Uncle Jim, I have a burning question. I think I may be on to something, or maybe it's just me. Okay, when you write, do you have the "inner voice"? I don't mean your normal narrative voice, the one you hear when you read something, but kind of an outsider's voice. One telling you the story. I get that when I'm in a good flow. I get it when I'm not, but it doesn't seem as strong. I'm not saying that kind of thing is an essential part of writing, but I think it may be an essential part of MY writing. Anyone else have similar quirks?

Yes.

For me, the story is already there. It tells me, I don't tell it.
 
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