Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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Rigby Eleanor

Novel/Novella

Uncle Jim,
I noticed earlier that you said:

"Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words."

I've seen a lot of definitions of novella/novel length on here and other places but I thought a novella was up to 60,000 words and an average sized novel was 100,000 words.

Any idea of the acceptable "average" length for a novel?
Have I written a doorstep by mistake??
 

AnneStJohn

An Issue I have

Folks,

Does anyone else write for a living? I write, but not what I'd LIKE to be writing- I am a grant proposal writer for a large non-profit. So I write fund-raising letters, proposals, appeals, reports, etc. Sometimes it is like writing a story- we want this money from you and if we get it, here's what we'll do with it, here's why it's great- but I essentially write non-fiction for a living. The only time I've ever been published was an academic journal. So my issue is this- sometimes because I am writing all day it is hard to get my two hours of BIC in ( I feel like my eyeballs are falling out of my head after 8 hours in front of a computer) and it is also hard for me to switch gears from grant writing to fiction writing. Any ideas or advice? Eric, aren't you a lawyer? Ever find it hard to switch from writing legal lawyer stuff to talking tigers? Anyone else?

I know I'm going to hear "just shut up and do it already" but I was wondering if anyone had little tricks they used to help with this sort of thing.

Thanks!

Anne
 

Tamara Siler Jones

new arrival

Hey now, I'm not egomaniacal!

I will tho admit to the other labels ;)

lol
 

MiltonPope

A positional-chess example?

Jim, I've bought "Logical Chess", and have started working through it. Now: which of your books would best demonstrate a plot built using your positional-chess technique?

I should mention: I'm new here, and have just spent a week going through this whole thread. Wow! and again, Wow!

--Milton
 

wwwatcher

The character's thoughts

I've posted a piece on Sharing your Work thread about how to punctuate the character's thoughts. I seem to be wrestling with this lately.

I would appreciate it if you would give me your thoughts on this Uncle Jim and friends.

It's at pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolu...=221.topic

Thanks

Faye
 

James D Macdonald

Cleaning Up

A general clean-up post, before diving into a weekend that involves a heavy deadline....

ChunkyC:

<blockquote>
Noooo! or NOOOO!

If extra vowels are acceptable, how many is too many? Or is this a purely subjective thing?
</blockquote>

I wouldn't use extra vowels at all. How the character delivers the word should be obvious to the reader from the story-telling and character development to that point. "Nooooo!" is close to dialect and stage directions, both of which should be used lightly if at all.

All things are subjective, and if you make it work for you, you've made it work. Alas, spelling out "Noooooo!" and "Yesssssss!" and "Arrrrrrggghhhh!" look very much like shameless padding.

<hr>

Weren Cole

If a character is important, he/she should be mentioned early, and should be given enough to do while waiting for his Big Moment so that when the Big Moment arrives the readers don't say "Who?" and have to flip back fifty or a hundred pages to refresh their memories.

At the same time, if a character is given a name, the readers will try to hold him in mind, assuming that he'll be important later. (Thus: don't name your characters unless you want them to stay in the readers' heads where they'll take up processing power: it's like naming kittens that follow you home.)

Generally speaking, try to get by with as few characters as you can. And try to have them all on-stage and acting in the first hundred pages.

It's perfectly okay to outline after you've created the first-draft text. The outline will show you where the bumps that need to be filed off and the dips that need to be filled are.

File cards are your friends.

You'll learn how much is too much backstory by writing it, and trying it on your beta readers. But also ... imagine that you are that person. What do you actually say? Realism is also your friend. (This will help you avoid "as-you-know-Bob" dialog, and "Gentle reader" insertions.) Generally speaking, use the absolute minimum backstory necessary to keep the introduction from being completely cryptic.

<hr>

Rigby Eleanor

No, you haven't written a doorstop by accident. 400 manuscript pages is pretty reasonable.

A novel (at least, a YA novel) can start as low as 40,000 words. You won't start being saleable for an adult novel until around 60,000 words (with the standard Genius Exception: If you've written a work of genius, all bets are off).

So don't worry. As long as the words are the Right words, all's well.

<hR>

AnneStJohn

I write for a living.

What you might try is this: If you're too tired of looking at a screen to write fiction after a long day at the office, write your fiction in the morning before you go to work. Set the alarm clock early, and get one of those coffeemakers that will start a pot of coffee based on a timer so it's hot and steaming when you stumble out of bed.

<hr>

qatz:

More on Outlining soon.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: A positional-chess example?

MiltonPope:

The chessboard is most clearly visible through the words in The Price of the Stars.

You can pick up a copy <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812517040/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">here</A>.
 

MacAl Stone

writing for a living

AnneStJohn--I write sales copy for a living...press releases, ad copy, hang-tags, and especially catalogue copy for a NW sportwear company...it's actually pretty funny when I turn in copy that looks like it ought to be in my wanna-be novel -- it comes back to my desk with ???? all over it :-/ I carry a notebook everywhere I go and write odd bits of dialog, notes about story, characters, descriptions, scenes, etc., in longhand (am developing one heck of a writer's bump) that I plan to relate to the book later...I work out tricky bits in longhand, etc., because it helps me disconnect from that sort of glib, invisible-voice that I have to use for promotional stuff. Then later, I transpose it all into computer files, but by then, the real work is done and all I really have to do on the keyboard is so much typing.

Bear in mind I have started something like 5 or 6 novels and gotten as far as 150-200 pages in most all of them before stalling out for one reason or another. So I can't recommend my method as, "this is sure to work" to anyone, in good conscience.

Mac
 

ChunkyC

Re: Cleaning Up

Thanks for the Nooooo! tip, Uncle Jim. I guess the bottom line is: let 'em hear it in their head, each reader will put their own twist on it anyway. It has been rewritten as:

"No!"
 

jerir12

Re: Oh, ahem, well.

hi QATZ,

Where exactly did you post your info on outlining?

jerir12
 

Weren Cole

Re: Cleaning Up

Jim,
Thanks boss, your insights prove helpful. I do have clarifying question though, approximately where is the hundred page point? I have been reading over the threads of How Long and such, but there seems to be a varying degree of theories on how an MS translates to printed form.

Also, I did not use the phrase "ego-maniacal", I was just pointing out that accomplished writers tend to have confidence in their writing, or at least a facade thereof. For instance, James always says "send it out till hell won't have it.... start your next book". If that isn't confident advice from a confident person, I don't know what is.

At the same time I would like ask a new question that goes back to POV: When the bulk of a book is written in first person, is it usually considered a memoir of the narrator? This is assuming that the author is not placing him/herself in the spot of narrator in the first place. At the same time of this 1st person POV, I have a story that runs simultaneously, parrelell with it, that is in 3rd limited (or so) that contains the narrator as character. I know that jumping from one to the other is often frowned upon, but I am of the notion that my story could pull it off. What are you thoughts?
 

AnneStJohn

Re: Writing for a living

Mac,

Thanks for the insight. I also keep a notepad with me at all times at the office (I live in fear that the boss will be in here one day scrounging around for something and find it) to keep ideas in as they come to me. I've even been known to write full chapters in longhand and then transcribe them. It's a different feeling for me while I'm writing and I've never really thought about WHY I did it. But since your post, I think it is a great idea. I can type like a madwoman if I am transcribing something from a notebook on to my computer. Maybe I should try incorporating that into my BIC time- write in the notebook and transcribe later- just to mix things up after a long day in front of the computer.

Uncle Jim, sometimes I am driven out of bed early in the morning just because I can't wait to write. I had a feeling you were going to suggest I do just that EVERY day. Thank you for all your help.

Thanks to all of you out there, too! Just coming to work and checking this thread as part of my morning routine is a constant source of inspiration. You all rock!

Anne
 

G Jules

BIC Redux

*de-lurks*

I found this board a few months ago when I was working on yet another partial-and-outline that just wasn't going anywhere. I like sleep, so I was pretty skeptical of the early morning BIC method, but I figured I had nothing to lose.

Couple months later, I've finished a 90,000 word rough draft. The system worked. And I just wanted to say thank you.

And I'm an insomniac, too. :nerd
 

qatz

hey jer

it's in "share your work." the url is pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolu...=200.topic
but i can't get the link thing to work yet. wwwwatcher did though, in a post right up there :up . thanks w!
 

qatz

oh hey

Thanks, Mike!

p.s. Uncle Jim, I quote you in that outline piece with the usual attribution and, as I would like to get it published in some writers' magazine after a little more revision, may I have your permission to use said quote? I understand that you plan to return to the topic yourself soon.
 

Eowyn Eomer

Re: Learn Writing with Uncle Jim

With what was said waaaay back on the first page...

For the title and byline being half way down the front - what font size should be used for those and is it okay to use something other than Courier for those? And what is a byline?

For the running head - is it okay to just use your last name instead of your full name on every page? And is it really necessary to put the title? What font size and style should this heading be?

What about chapter titles? What font size should be used for chapter titles and is it okay to use something other than Courier for those?

For titles, bylines and chapter titles - are bolds, italics or underlines acceptable? And also - when should they be used within the story itself?

I'm a little hyphen crazy I think and I'm still not sure on the rule on when to use a hyphen or a semicolon or a colon. Well, I know to use a colon for lists. And a semicolon for two complete seperate sentences within one sentence. Or something like that. I should know these rules by now. :x
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Learn Writing with Uncle Jim

For the title and byline being half way down the front - what font size should be used for those

Courier 10 or Courier 12


and is it okay to use something other than Courier for those?

Why would you want to?

And what is a byline?

The line that says "by [authorname]"

The name in the byline can be a pseudonym. The name in your address in the top left corner will be your real name; the name you want on the check.

For the running head - is it okay to just use your last name instead of your full name on every page?

Yes.

And is it really necessary to put the title?

Yes.


What font size and style should this heading be?

Courier 10 or Courier 12

What about chapter titles? What font size should be used for chapter titles

Courier 10 or Courier 12


and is it okay to use something other than Courier for those?

Why would you want to?

For titles, bylines and chapter titles - are bolds, italics or underlines acceptable?

Italics and underlines are the same thing (underlining is how you indicate italics). The title will appear as some kind of display font. Your name will appear as some kind of display font. Chapter titles can be italicized if the word would normally be italicized (e.g. a foriegn word or phrase). Usually all of these matters will depend on the publisher's house style. Don't waste time worrying about it.

And also - when should they be used within the story itself?

When you wish to. Italics are indicated with a single underline, bold is indicated with a double underline.

I'm a little hyphen crazy I think and I'm still not sure on the rule on when to use a hyphen or a semicolon or a colon.

Get a good grammar book. A writer who doesn't know how to punctuate is like a golfer who doesn't know how to swing. Your local bookstore will be full of test-prep books for students taking the SAT and PSAT. Those might be a place to start. And if you don't have a copy of <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/020530902X/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Strunk & White</a>, go out now, today, and get one.

Really, I'm not kidding.

Well, I know to use a colon for lists. And a semicolon for two complete seperate sentences within one sentence. Or something like that. I should know these rules by now.

Grammar is your friend. You want to make your meaning clear to your readers. Grammar helps you do that.

Here's one place to start.
 

James D Macdonald

Chess and Writing

I return briefly the the Novel-as-chess-game trope, to give you this:

<A HREF="http://www.ex.ac.uk/~dregis/DR/quotes.html" target="_new">Chess quotes</a>

Go, read them, and see how each could apply to you and your novel.

Now, get your copy of <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0713484640/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Logical Chess: Move by Move</a>. It's a writing book. Really.
 

aka eraser

Explanation?

I can understand why in the "olden" days of typewritten, or even handwritten manuscripts, underlining would be used to indicate italics and bold. I don't understand why they're still used when wordprocessing programs allow us to print, or e-send the material exactly the way it should be read ie: italicized or bold.

Is it that old habits die hard or is there still some arcane aspect of the printing/publishing process that demands it?
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Explanation?

When you're typesetting, it's easy to miss italics that appear as italics in the text.

Underlines and double underlines are universally understood by typesetters, they're obvious on the page, and they're easy to add with a red pencil in the editing stage.
 

WordSoup

Archaic printing

Hi Uncle Jim and Everyone,

Sorry this question isn't about writing novels, but printing/typesetting.

15 years ago I was a typesetter, proofreader, camera operator, secretary, and all-around-Jill-of-all-trades in a few different "job shop" type printing companies, and shopper newspapers.

Now I'm looking for a 9 to 5 again, and I want to know if anything I was doing back then, is what a Copy Editor does now.

Signed - Jen - Feeling as archaic as hot lead
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Archaic printing

Beats the hey out of me, Jen. Knock on doors and call folks on the phone, I'd say.

Lots of things have changed in printing over the last fifteen years. Heck, fifteen years ago being a Selectric repairman was guaranteed full time employment.
 
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