Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

batgirl · Mar 10, 2006

novel/novella/novelette?

Still catching up on the thread, and realised I should have said Thank You! before, for doing this, so Thank You!

I think I more-or-less understand the novel being a house, or chair, or something you can take apart and rebuild, and a short story being a baked good (I've never made or eaten Key Lime pie, but I suppose the simile holds for other desserts) where you put the pieces together and they blend indissolubly, or not.
But I've just finished what I meant to be a short story until it grew to 11k, becoming a novelet(te), according to at least one word-count chart.
Are novellas and novelettes more like novels, or more like short stories, or is this a case-by-case decision? If it is case-by-case, what sort of factors would be considered?
It affects how I approach the revising, and how much I can hack the draft up without spoiling it, I think.
-Barbara

victoria.goddard · Mar 10, 2006

the six senses

Dear Uncle Jim,

At some point way upthread you mentioned the six senses that should be borne in mind--the five regular ones and one more. I seem to remember that it has to do with one's sense of extension in space. Does that sense have a name? And how does one go about expressing it? Is it a case of: "He lay face-down on the couch with his nose a bit squashed into the cushion and his feet fumbling for purchase on the arm rest", or more, "She imagined that if she stretched out her hand she would reach the tree trunk", or something else entirely?

Yours, mildly curious,

Victoria

James D. Macdonald · Mar 11, 2006

The sixth sense is called proprioception, and it's the awareness of where your body is in relationship to itself.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 11, 2006

batgirl said:
Are novellas and novelettes more like novels, or more like short stories, or is this a case-by-case decision?

As far as rewriting, a novella or novelette is closer to being a novel. You can take pieces, rearrange, add and take away, and have something useful. It isn't a case of "Well, that didn't work," and try again from scratch.

Sometimes, though, even entire novels are so fatally flawed that you have to lay it aside and start again.

This is frequently the case with first novels.

Ken Schneider · Mar 11, 2006

I now understand where the thought, "Submit and write another book," comes from.

I have three piece of work at at different publishers, and the time frame for an answer is close, and past on two. I don't know if it is because the pile is big, or they are considering, and passing the work around to see if there is interest.

That is why we should be writing, instead of thinking about what we can't do anything about at the moment.

Easier said than done for those of us trying to climb a ladder with the first rung a bit higher than our writing hand can reach, as yet.

But we write on, and wait, write more while we wonder if we are growing.

We write to grow tall enough to reach that first rung.

goliard · Mar 14, 2006

sending out before you're done

What a mindbogglingly useful thread this is.

I've only read about a fifth of it so far, so apologies if this question has been answered in the remaining four-fifths:

Is there any point, for an unpublished writer, in sending out three chapters and an outline (to either a publisher or an agent) before the manuscript is finished? Is it unheard of to be offered a book deal at that stage?

Uncle Jim, I know you're going to say, Finish it, revise it, and revise it again - but what's the harm in trying your luck early on?

-Tom

Berry · Mar 14, 2006

goliard said:
[...]what's the harm in trying your luck early on?

The harm is this. Imagine you send out the first three chapters and a synopsis, and Big Name Editor says "Yes! I want this! Send the whole MS!" and then you have to say "Er, um, well, it's not finished yet, I can send it in six months."

At this point, Ms. Big may have already put her butt on the line for your MS in the acquisition meetings, and you have now made her look bad.

So B. N. Editor says, "Well, OK, whatever," and promptly forgets you exist -- if you're lucky. Remember, you don't have a track record for delivering publishable manuscripts to deadline. Many beginning authors' books fall apart 3/4 of the way through, and B.N. knows this, and won't take a chance.

When you're done, you have to start over at the beginning. So why not finish it first?

goliard · Mar 14, 2006

I should have made it clear that I meant, sending out an unfinished MS and disclosing the fact that it is unfinished. But I guess you answered that question too -

Berry said:
Remember, you don't have a track record for delivering publishable manuscripts to deadline. Many beginning authors' books fall apart 3/4 of the way through, and B.N. knows this, and won't take a chance.

All true... But (assuming you're candid about the partial state of your offering) there's still no harm done - no?

James D. Macdonald · Mar 14, 2006

I know all about being impatient, but seriously, what's your hurry?

You may not even know what the real opening of your book is until after you've reached The End and revised it a couple of times.

Sending out a partial of an unfinished manscript as a first timer is a form of betting against yourself. You're betting that everyone will say "no," so where's the harm?

What's your goal? To get the greatest number of rejection slips? Didn't think so. Your goal is to get picked up by the first place you query. You want to hear "yes, send the whole thing."

Even if you're up front about the fact that the book isn't finished ... as a first timer the best you'll hear is "write again when it's done." At worst, you'll get one of those nice form rejections. Sad fact: once a particular work has been rejected by a particular market, it's well-nigh impossible to get them to look at that same work again.

So, don't do it. Finish your book. Make it perfect. That includes the perfect opening, the perfect ending, and all the words in between.

Only then should you start sending it around. And while it's going around, you're writing your next book.

goliard · Mar 14, 2006

James D. Macdonald said:
Sad fact: once a particular work has been rejected by a particular market, it's well-nigh impossible to get them to look at that same work again.

Yes, I'm sure you're right. I was just thinking, what better incentive could there be to finish the thing than an expression of interest from a publisher? But it sounds like I'm even more naive than I thought I was...

James D. Macdonald · Mar 18, 2006

The Devil's Rejection Slips

LightShadow · Mar 18, 2006

James D. Macdonald said:
The Devil's Rejection Slips

That is great...but alas, they did read like a lot of my rejections. My soul is battered, but still optimistic.

Triavan · Mar 22, 2006

My personal thanks to each and every contributor to this thread, and a special thanks to Uncle Jim for the invaluable perspective you bring. After having slogged my way through the whole of this gem I am pleased to say that I have a whole new understanding of the art.

While I was reading this thread I came to realize that my writing was being paralyzed because I was insisting on starting my writing career with the story I've been refining for years. The story and characters that led me into a serious enough interest in writing that I would do something as crazy as write a novel. It struck me that if I was to write this first novel and it failed I would lose my motivation to write the rest of thier story. I was stonewalling myself to avoid confronting that. So I put a ream of paper aside with a personal contract attached to it obligating me to pick up my story once I am confident of its success and started in on an unrelated novel. Since then I have been burning up the keyboard. It was amazing to me how easily I changed focus (which I took as a sign) and now that I'm caught up here I look forward to having more time free in the day to continue with this new story. I put my two hours in at the chair every day, now I can put in three

I'd like to share my solution with those who have mentioned difficulty with the temptation to edit what’s on the screen instead of adding to it.
I highlight everything but the last paragraph at the end of my writing session and turn the text color to white (I save it to my back ups first, white text is only on my working copy). This gives me a launching point for the next days session and makes all that other *really* rough prose invisible until I am really ready for it.

Finally, it seems customary to join the thread with a question.

I'm afraid the best I can do is a formatting question. My WIP is written in the form of a journal, using dates in place of chapter headings. What I am wondering is whether or not enough attention will be paid to these headings to allow them to direct the flow of time.
For example, if the first section is the 12th day of 5th 2e214 (I am writing in a fantasy setting so standard names for months are inapplicable. The calendar is explained in the work.) and then there is a three day space before the second entry, is it enough to label it 15th day of 5th 2e214 or shall I reinforce the passage of time. Perhaps with an intro along the lines of "Three days of fruitless searching has finally led me to ..."

Chris

glutton · Mar 22, 2006

James D Macdonald said:
Beware the word "Somehow." You can use it in dialog when the character doesn't know, but you should avoid it in narrative. "Somehow" means the author doesn't know either. This is bad. The reader is trusting you to know what's going on and to guide him to the climax of the book. "Somehow" makes the reader look at you askance and ask "What's the matter with this guy?" It's as if he were following a guide through trackless wilderness, when the guide suddenly gets a puzzled expression on his face and says "Beats the heck out of me."

Example: Our hero is trying to sneak into a warehouse. The door is sliding shut. Then the narrative: Somehow the door failed to close all the way. What? Why didn't it close? Figure this out, author, and come back when you know. Did a mouse get jammed in the gears? Either come up with something reasonable, or give the guy a different way into the warehouse. If you do nothing else, delete the word "somehow." You still have the same action, but without the moment of doubt.

Question here- if it's in third person POV, wouldn't the somehow be appropriate if the character doesn't know why the door didn't close? I mean if he knows the door didn't close, but doesn't know why.

Click to expand...

allenparker · Mar 22, 2006

JDMcD said...

James D. Macdonald said:
I know all about being impatient, but seriously, what's your hurry?

You may not even know what the real opening of your book is until after you've reached The End and revised it a couple of times.

This is specifically a good reason to wait to start submitting your work.

I finished writing the first draft of my WIP a few weeks ago. I typed "The End" at the bottom of the last page, trundled up the stairs for a good night's sleep. The next evening, I began reading the rough draft to determine if there had been enough time between typing and reading to make a good faith effort at revising the story.

After reading the first five chapters of the story, I realized that the story really began at chapter four. The first three chapters, although important to me, didn't supply the reader with any information that wouldn't be disclosed later or was needed at that point. The action of the story didn't really begin until chapter five. What I had written was a boring draggy story that began to pick up speed in the fourth and fifth chapters.

I may have needed to write the first three chapters to help me mentally develop the characters, but I certainly didn't need to bore the the readers to tears, especially since most of the first readers past the beta group would be agents and editors.

As we all know, we usually only get three chapters to capture the attention of an agent or editor. If we make sure that the story begins on page one, the reader will get three chapters of action and substance.

(take my suggestions to be worth what you paid for them.)
awp

batgirl · Mar 22, 2006

Following up on the 'starting the story too early' idea, how do you tell if you've started the story too late? I've read more than a few books that start with some tense or slam-bang situation, and as I read on, I find out how the protagonist got there. William Marshall, for instance, starts many of his Yellowthread Street books with a surreal image that makes perfect sense by the time you get to the real climax of the book. So, I figure he's doing it right.
Which doesn't mean that it can't be done wrong, say by starting so far into the story that everyone has to do maid-and-butler dialogue to explain the backstory.

This is a specific question for me because one of the stories I'm working on starts out with a tense situation that I've been told (in one case by a professional editor) was a great opening. It raises a number of questions that I've tried to answer bit-by-bit by short memories or conversations, without (I hope) info-dumping.
In workshopping the later chapters, a couple of reviewers (not all) have said that they would rather have the short flashbacks or memories as actual scenes in the story. They didn't say 'this story starts too late, go and write at least one chapter of what happens before' - but I can't think what else they'd mean.
To me, the opening I have is the moment of not-ordering-pizza, because it's when the protagonist (actually, he's died once already and dies a few more times in the course of the book, so he may a hero as well) decides to not just run away, but to arm himself (in a way) against his enemy. The part before that is him being victimised and endangered, really.
Any suggestions on how to tell whether I've started the story in the wrong place or the right place? Or what the problem really is?

And thanks for the take on revising a novella - it's gone out now!
-Barbara

James D. Macdonald · Mar 22, 2006

Triavan said:
I'm afraid the best I can do is a formatting question. My WIP is written in the form of a journal, using dates in place of chapter headings. What I am wondering is whether or not enough attention will be paid to these headings to allow them to direct the flow of time.
For example, if the first section is the 12th day of 5th 2e214 (I am writing in a fantasy setting so standard names for months are inapplicable. The calendar is explained in the work.) and then there is a three day space before the second entry, is it enough to label it 15th day of 5th 2e214 or shall I reinforce the passage of time. Perhaps with an intro along the lines of "Three days of fruitless searching has finally led me to ..."

Chris

Would the character countersink the time passage with "three days later" when writing his/her journal? If not ... don't.

Be very careful of using long strings of numbers for anything. Readers are likely to read those as "number number number" without actually seeing them. That is, they'll be aware there's a number, but not what it is.

After that ... just try and see how it works. You can always go back and change it if you need to. No one but you sees your first drafts.

===========

I'd still be wary of "somehow." What's wrong with merely noting "The door didn't close"?

===========

In the workshop, were the workshoppers reading the whole book from the beginning as one unit, or were they reading an isolated chapter, after having read the preceeding bits some time before?

Workshopping in pieces is difficult. Wait until your beta readers have the whole book in hand and read it as a whole before making that decision.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 22, 2006

batgirl said:
To me, the opening I have is the moment of not-ordering-pizza, because it's when the protagonist (actually, he's died once already and dies a few more times in the course of the book, so he may a hero as well) decides to not just run away, but to arm himself (in a way) against his enemy. The part before that is him being victimised and endangered, really.
Any suggestions on how to tell whether I've started the story in the wrong place or the right place? Or what the problem really is?

Have you written the whole book?

You can do flashbacks, but you need real justification for any deviation from chronological time.

Are you entirely certain that those parts are needed to tell your story?

The best way to tell if you've started in the wrong place is to a) finish the book, and b) let it sit in your desk drawer for three months while you start another book. Re-read then and the answer may be obvious.

maestrowork · Mar 22, 2006

James D. Macdonald said:
Be very careful of using long strings of numbers for anything. Readers are likely to read those as "number number number" without actually seeing them. That is, they'll be aware there's a number, but not what it is.

I agree. Obviously, we want our readers to read everything with diligence. The reality is, people skimp. And if you have a string of numbers, people will naturally skip over... "yeah, yeah... it's some years and months and dates." Same with locations, etc. I have done so myself multiple times, only to back track and read it again to understand exactly when and where something is happening. After a while, it gets really confusing (especially if you start jumping around in time, not in chronological order).

blacbird · Mar 22, 2006

This is pretty much true of long verbal strings of anything. I've seen stuff like this, especially in mystery novels, where the writer is trying to enumerate clues or evidence or observations, and I always find myself skimming it. It's just hard to pay attention to a dozen nouns in a row with commas separating them.

caw.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 22, 2006

If you really, really want to know how many words are in your manuscript, and how many pages will be in the printed book, here're workshop instructions:

http://alg.livejournal.com/77731.html

James D. Macdonald · Mar 23, 2006

Some wonderful words:

http://www.brownielocks.com/words.html

batgirl · Mar 24, 2006

James D. Macdonald said:
In the workshop, were the workshoppers reading the whole book from the beginning as one unit, or were they reading an isolated chapter, after having read the preceeding bits some time before?

Workshopping in pieces is difficult. Wait until your beta readers have the whole book in hand and read it as a whole before making that decision.

Isolated chapters. And the story isn't finished - there are big chunks missing still. The workshop is a way of giving myself deadlines.

Okay, that makes sense. Chapter-by-chapter crits are good for catching the flow within the chapter and within scenes, and for line-editing. But for structural crit I have to have the complete structure visible, and there's no point fussing about that while I'm still raising the frame.
Thank you. I'll stop fussing about the first chapters and get on with writing the middle ones.
-Barbara (yikes, 500 posts? I should go do some crits and be useful)

James D. Macdonald · Mar 31, 2006

It's been a while since we've played "First Two Pages." So, without further ado:

They threw me off the hay truck about noon. I had swung on the night before, down at the border, and as soon as I got up there under the canvas, I went to sleep. I needed plenty of that, after three weeks in Tia Juana, and I was still getting it when they pulled off to one side to let the engine cool. Then they saw a foot sticking out and threw me off. I tried some comical stuff, but all I got was a dead pan, so that gag was out. They gave me a cigarette, though, and I hiked down the road to find something to eat.

That was when I hit this Twin Oaks Tavern. It was nothing but a roadside sandwich joint, like a million others in California. There was a lunchroom part, and over that a house part, where they lived, and off to one side a filling station, and out back a half dozen shacks that they called an auto court. I blew in there in a hurry and began looking down the road. When the Greek showed, I asked if a guy had been by in a Cadillac. He was to pick me up here, I said, and we were to have lunch. Not today, said the Greek. He layed a place at one of the tables and asked me what I was going to have. I said orange juice, corn flakes, fried eggs and bacon, enchilada, flapjacks, and coffee. Pretty soon he came out with the orange juice and the corn flakes.

"Hold on, now. One thing I got to tell you. If this guy don't show up, you'll have to trust me for it. This was to be on him, and I'm kind of short myself."

"Hokay, fill'm up."

I saw he was on, and quit talking about the guy in the Cadillac. Pretty soon I saw he wanted something.

"What you do, what kind of work, hey?"

"Oh, one thing and another, one thing and another. Why?"

"How old you?"

"Twenty-four."

"Young fellow, hey? I could use young fellow right now. In my business."

"Nice place you got here."

"Air. Is a nice. No fog, like in Los Angeles. No fog at all. Nice, a clear, all a time nice a clear."

"Must be swell at night. I can smell it now."

"Sleep fine. You understand automobile? Fix'm up?"

"Sure. I'm a born mechanic."

He gave me some more about the air, and how healthy he's been since he bought this place, and how he can't figure it out, why his help won't stay with him. I can figure it out, but I stay with the grub.

"Hey? You think you like it here?"

By that time I had put down the rest of the coffee, and lit the cigar he gave me. "I tell you how it is. I got a couple of other propositions, that's my trouble. But I'll think about it. I sure will do that all right."

###

Then I saw her. She had been out back, in the kitchen, but she came in to gather up my dishes. Except for the shape, she really wasn't any raving beauty, but she had a sulky look to her, and her lips stuck out in a way that made me want to mash them in for her.

End of page two.

How about it, folks ... turn the page?

Anya Smith · Mar 31, 2006

James D Macdonald said:
BTW, I didn't say "no music," I said "no radio." Radios have announcers, disk jockeys, the news, weather ... things that will break your concentration, take you out of that place where the creative things happen.

I like music myself for writing ... I prefer requiems, but maybe I'm just strange.

Whatever helps you get into the state you need to be in....

But there's a warning coming.

Don't couple destructive things with you writing. If you light up a cigarette when you start writing, if you quit smoking you'll find you can't write any more.

Same with drinking booze. Same with eating bon-bons. Coupling bad habits with writing will mean that you'll never be able to shed the bad habits.

One of the popular images of writers is of the guy with a bottle of whisky beside the typewriter.

It probably won't make you a better writer, or even make you a writer at all. It will rot your liver and empty your bank account.

I can only listen to music without lirics while I write, that's usually classical. Words are distracting.

Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Writting broad

Your Genial Uncle

Your Genial Uncle

Absolute sagebrush

goliard

goliard

Your Genial Uncle

goliard

Your Genial Uncle

defender of the blahs!

Triavan

Naked Futon Guy

Writting broad

Your Genial Uncle

Your Genial Uncle

Fear the Death Ray

Your Genial Uncle

Your Genial Uncle

Writting broad

Your Genial Uncle

House Dragon