Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

I'm going to say a dirty word...libel

Uncle Jim,

I am working on the second draft of my first novel- a mystery that has heavy background as it take place in a closed culture, similar to Arthur Golden's "Memoirs of a Geisha." I'm guessing that you don't moonlight as a lawyer, but I thought maybe my questions would have a clear answer for someone that's been a writer for longer than I have.

My book directly mentions a small cultish religion, The Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints- all my characters are members and thus are polygamist, one is blackmailing the church due to a financial trust it has, which does exist in life.

Can I use the church's name and that of the trust? They exist, but the scenerio I use them in doesn't.

Thanks,
TR

Yikes. To my inexpert ears, that sounds like dangerous ground: particularly, you'd have to be careful that none of your characters are identifiably similar to real people who hold specific positions in the church.

I'm not sure whether or not one can libel an institution; it doesn't sound likely, but I'm not a lawyer. You'd probably need to talk to one.

It sounds like a very interesting story premise, though, so don't give it up!

toastyreward said:

Can I use the church's name ...? They exist, but the scenerio I use them in doesn't.

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Not that it would happen to you, but the worst case scenario happened to Salman Rushdie, and he had a fictional name for the religion.

Jules,

Thanks for the input. None of my charcters are indentifiable as real people, they are pure fiction. However, the organization is real. I don't mention their prophey by name, I just called him, "The Prophet." The guy who was the prophet at the time I set this is in dead, the current one is wanted on child molestation charges and is in hiding (this is not in the book). My biggest concerns are if the institution can come after me (they do not have professional clergy and my charcters are just members) and I worry that the trust could come after me. As of a few weeks ago all of the members on it were removed, the assets frozen, and the judge is going to appoint new board members...

It is complicated, if I got an agent would they be able to tell me where the line is? Does a publisher?

Mainstream/contemporary?

A basic question. What kind of books come under the mainstream/contemporary genre? Does it overlap with the genre of literary fiction?

thanks,
Paritosh.

Mainstream, contemporary, and literary are all marketing categories. What a book is called depends on how the marketing folks think it will sell better.

jules said:

I'm not sure whether or not one can libel an institution; it doesn't sound likely, but I'm not a lawyer. You'd probably need to talk to one.

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Neither am I, so I can't address that. But I was thinking, the Roman Catholic Church is an institution featured in lots of fiction, and the role it plays isn't always flattering or true to life. It must be ok (thinking of Dan Brown, though I haven't read The Da Vinci Code).

Apropos of writing science fiction novels...

I've been using a wonderful toy (ahem...) tool lately for learning orbital mechanics. Here it is. Free download. Steep learning curve, but worth it. Lots and lots of fun, too.

I've had to modify my novel based on things I learned with this toy. Tool, I mean.

LOL Read Angels and Demons... he's much harder on the RCC in that one.

CalicoBean said:

Neither am I, so I can't address that. But I was thinking, the Roman Catholic Church is an institution featured in lots of fiction, and the role it plays isn't always flattering or true to life. It must be ok (thinking of Dan Brown, though I haven't read The Da Vinci Code).

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On the other hand, the Roman Catholic Church is a bit more thick-skinned than some religious groups. Worst they're likely to do if they hate a book is put a book on the Index of Forbidden Books, unless there is some really blatant cause for suing, such as a "nonfiction" account falsely calling the Pope a child molester. On the other hand, for some religious groups, it appears that the mere fact that they have no possible grounds for a lawsuit may not stop them from suing anyone who prints anything unfavorable about them. And there was the infamous case already mentioned in this thread where some religious extremists put a price on an author's head. So, how litigatious (or violent) is this church you're planning to feature?

Thank You and an Intro

A friend pointed me to this thread a couple of weeks ago, and I've since read it all. I want to thank Jim for doing this. I've learned a lot, but then, I had a lot to learn.

I just finished a draft of my first novel, a Young Adult Fantasy. I've taken the advice of everyone here and set it aside for a few weeks to think about my next project.

I was going to say that I haven't published any fiction before (although I have committed scholarship), but I have to confess that I've written Tolkien fanfiction. It was pure (impure?) play, and I enjoyed it tremendously and learned a lot. It's very gratifying to see that hit count rise, and by the time I posted my last story, I was getting 700 hits per chapter within 48 hours. But I realized that I had written over a million words of fanfic and was getting bored. I could do that. So now it was time to try to learn to do something harder. Drafting the novel I just finished was fun. So I think the hard part will be revising it and then sending it out into the cold, cruel world. I appreciate the kind of advice and support this board provides.

By all means, use the Catholic church.


<whisper>Just don't badmouth the Illuminati!</whisper>

toastyreward said:

My book directly mentions a small cultish religion, The Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints- all my characters are members and thus are polygamist, one is blackmailing the church due to a financial trust it has, which does exist in life.

Can I use the church's name and that of the trust? They exist, but the scenerio I use them in doesn't.

Thanks,
TR

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Why not make up your own ficticious splinter group, say The Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? This is entirely plausible. Extremists often break off from main religion. It would still suit the needs of the story without alienating anyone, which in my opinion you shouldn't do unless you have to.

Even better, a fictitious group will stop your story from dating.

The problem is that Mormons are a splinter of Chiristianity. Do splinters splinter even more?

loquax said:

The problem is that Mormons are a splinter of Chiristianity. Do splinters splinter even more?

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Sure. Ad infinitum. Usually when an extremist splinter starts to moderate its beliefs back toward the mainstream, an extremist element will splinter from the main group to start a separate group. This has in fact happened to the LDS many times. (I'm not picking on the Mormons here. It's happened to Baptists just as often.)

zornhau said:

Even better, a fictitious group will stop your story from dating.

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It's okay for your stories to date, but they shouldn't go all the way. Be back by midnight, drive safe and have fun, kids.

Yes, the Restored version is already a splinter group of LDS. In fiction it's always a good idea to create a similar group and draw your inference around it. People will understand who you're trying to portray, and no direct insult or harm can come of it. And it's true that you don't want to date your material--organizations and groups can go bust in 20 years--highly unlikely with a group like LDS, but you want to cover your tracks.

Remember that movie staring Chevy Chase and Beverly DiAngilo, where they take their kids on a vacation to visit Wally World? Wally=Walt=Walt Disney=moose theme=mouse theme. I think it infers a connection if enough hints are dropped. It becomes quite clear (without stepping on toes) who the major theme park is supposed to represent. Although, copyright and trademark certainly play more a part in this, we still know Disneyland is brought to mind.

I once wanted to slam Random House in one of my short stories. I used the title Abandon House Publications. People got the connection and I'm sure that Random House was scratching their heads.

Tri

EMO PHILLIPS? Now that's an obscure reference.

James D. Macdonald said:

"...He said, "Reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!"

I said, "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off."

-- EMO PHILIPS

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As a Baptist, myself, I should be outraged, but...

Saint Peter was conducting a tour of Heaven. When they came to a particular corridor, Peter turned to the group and said,"From this point, you must be absolutely silent."

The group traversed the corridor and when they emerged, one of the group said, "Peter, what was that all about?"

Peter turned to him and replied, "That's where we keep the Baptists. They think they're the only ones here."

UJ, that's the best story I have ever read. Thank you for bringing it into my life

triceretops said:

Remember that movie staring Chevy Chase and Beverly DiAngilo, where they take their kids on a vacation to visit Wally World? Wally=Walt=Walt Disney=moose theme=mouse theme. I think it infers a connection if enough hints are dropped. It becomes quite clear (without stepping on toes) who the major theme park is supposed to represent. Although, copyright and trademark certainly play more a part in this, we still know Disneyland is brought to mind.

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Reminds me of one of Neil Gaiman's Sandman stories, "Collectors," in which a serial killer rhapsodizes about his favorite, secret place to find children to "play with." He describes a company policy of turning a blind eye to such incidents in order to avoid bad publicity. He wears Mickey Mouse ears through the whole comic book issue, including the page on which he attempts an assault on the main character while singing "It's a Small World After All."

It was abundantly clear that he was referring to Disney World--there wasn't even a half-assed attempt to create a sort of fictional surrogate like "Wally World"--and the character's description of the blind eye practice is probably more realistic than we'd like to think, but to my knowledge the wrath of Disney has not made an appearance in retaliation.

It's interesting how far you can go with this sort of thing in fiction.

Lost, and don't want to find.

Okay, finished my WIP, put it in the drawer. Been, oh, about a month. Started a new WIP a few days after. Coming up on 30,000 words on it.

I've all but forgotten about the other one, and am so excited about the new one that...
Well, I really am not enamored with the thought of even starting a red pencil edit on the drawered work.

Has anyone else ever felt this way about a prior work, after getting so deeply involved in a new wip?
Thanks.

changling said:

Okay, finished my WIP, put it in the drawer. Been, oh, about a month. Started a new WIP a few days after. Coming up on 30,000 words on it.

I've all but forgotten about the other one, and am so excited about the new one that...
Well, I really am not enamored with the thought of even starting a red pencil edit on the drawered work.

Has anyone else ever felt this way about a prior work, after getting so deeply involved in a new wip?
Thanks.

Click to expand...

That's exactly where I am now. The rought draft of my first novel sits in its manuscript box on the shelf. The one I'm working on (17,000 words so far) is really exciting, I can't stop writing it. I view the thought of editing the first one (what rough beast indeed!) with fear and loathing in equal measure.