Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Andrew Jameson said:

If Bubba's exact position is accounted for for an entire day, and he doesn't take a potty break, then yes, I think the reader would notice.

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That's more like it. It's not as if I'm writing like this all the time. It's just a problem I've bumped into, and you gave your opinion.

But then again, almost EVERYONE else has said "write what's interesting" and "don't bore the reader" in a million different ways. Are you telling me that it's okay for a character not to eat or sleep if the process is boring? That's all I want to hear. YES/NO ANSWER!

Yes.



Os.

Christine N. said:

For some reason I have a lot of food in my last book. But it's because the MC moves to a house with a staff and now has a cook, so some of the scenes are coversations over dinner, so I mention the dinner. Another one is a banquet feast in Ancient Greece, so I mention the food. They eat other times in the book, I'm sure, but they aren't noteworthy.

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I show my characters eating a few times. Maybe that's because my mother is French, and eating is important to our family. Using the current work, some of the times, I show it because interesting things happen during the meal -- such as the prince coming on to Moonstone while Moonstone is in drag and the prince thinks that Moonstone is a woman. Another time, I show the character eating because he had been in the dungeon for a while, and he was hungry, so it made sense for him to want to get some food. I also include scenes where he almost gets to eat, but something happens to prevent that.

In my previous book, I had a scene where a character was whipped for something he didn't do, and then left tied to the flogging pole for a couple of hours before he was cleared.

I didn't mention that he peed during that time because I figured people would say "Euwww." Maybe I should have mentioned it, or mentioned that he was holding it in because he had been humiliated enough, thank you very much, so he was stubbornly refusing to pee... Then again, I don't go over every moment of his wait, so maybe people will assume he did what he had to.

Realism

Lenora Rose said:

Second: Roger and Sharon, See you at VP! I got my acceptance last week.

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woo hoo! See you there.

Realism (peeing and so forth):
A couple of years ago, I started reading a fantasy novel (can't remember the name right now) where every time someone died in a sword fight, the author mentioned the stench of their bowels releasing. I think the author was trying for realism. Death IS far messier in real life than in most literature. But after a while, it began to feel gratuitous. I never did finish the book.

Hey there, Jim Jim Jimmy Jim Jim Jim Jim! A Q 4 U!

I was listening to Michael Stackpole's Podcast called The Secrets, and he is covering the "rules" of writing. This week he covered POV. He suggested that if you are writing in Third Person Focused, that you should have no more than three POV characters per 100k words. He says about 30k are required for good character development. I've read a lot of Crichton, Clancy, and Cussler, and they all use 3PF, so I've got a keen grasp on the technique. My novel has five POV characters, and I'm right at about 100k.

I love his writing and respect him as an author. Am I, as he says, "insane?"

His podcast is available at: http://www.stormwolf.com/thesecrets/podcasts

loquax said:

Are you telling me that it's okay for a character not to eat or sleep if the process is boring? That's all I want to hear. YES/NO ANSWER!

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Yes.

But.

Nothing in life is so simple that a yes or no answer will work in all circumstances.

If your character is in a situation where he plausibly and naturally has time to pee offstage, during a scene break of a summary, like Bubba might in my example, then YES, I think you're OK not mentioning it. It is, as you say, boring to the reader.

If he doesn't have time, or if it presents a plot difficulty -- if your character is trapped in a closet for 48 hours (and would have to pee at some time), for example, or you have him doing things around the clock (with no sleep?) -- then it *becomes* interesting to the reader, and NO you can't get away with skipping this part.

IMO, of course.

jlawrenceperry said:

He suggested that if you are writing in Third Person Focused, that you should have no more than three POV characters per 100k words. He says about 30k are required for good character development.

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Who said you had to develop every one of your POV characters to that degree? I'd like to see at least that much from each of the main characters (although the novel I'm currently revising breaks even this rule: I have about 50k from one of the main POV characters, and 20k from the other, but this should get expanded a little while I'm working on it), but not every character needs this much attention (the third POV in the novel I'm revising has only about 2,000 words, for instance, yet I feel it is important that the reader gets into his head, and understands the world he lives in a little more than they would with only the other two's perspective on the story).

Also, if you do it well, you can develop a character in less than that. Stephen King's The Stand is about 200k and develops a lot more than 6 characters to a brilliant level.

This is an art, not a science. We do not measure our works with tape measure and stopwatch, saying "Ah, 10,000 words have passed, time to change POV!"

----

Many years ago I wrote a Spider-Man book. In this book, Spider-Man and Venom (Eddie Brock) drink a lot of coffee. (This book was written in one week -- art imitates life.)

At one point in a fight scene, Spider-Man said, "Wait up a minute -- I have to pee." To this, Venom replied, snarling, "Piss in your pants, Pete. It's what I do." (Since Venom wears a biogenic suit, this is actually a reasonable thing for him to do. It's also a reasonable thing for him to say since Eddie Brock knows Spider-Man's secret identity, and loathes him.)

Alas, the editor didn't let me keep it.

====

While bowels do generally unstop some time after death, smells and sounds and such are reasonable things to mention. But the time can be up to some hours later ... so it's not always necessary to mention.

The constraints of the market probably require something just above 100k, and thankfully it's all I need to tell my story.

However, telling my story in compelling fashion necessitates the five POV characters I have. So stick with them I shall.

loquax said:

What then? It's a yes/no answer - can you miss out toilet breaks, sleeping, and eating?

They rarely add to the plot, enhance the character or support a theme. But without them your book becomes unrealistic...

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Here's my definitive answer: yes, you can skip all the potty breaks, sleeping and eating without making your book look unrealistic.

As long as your story is engaging, your characters vivid and alive, and your themes insightful, no one is going to care if your characters eat, sleep or s*** during any of your scenes.

maestrowork said:

Here's my definitive answer: yes, you can skip all the potty breaks, sleeping and eating without making your book look unrealistic.

As long as your story is engaging, your characters vivid and alive, and your themes insightful, no one is going to care if your characters eat, sleep or s*** during any of your scenes.

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Just because most people won't notice or care isn't an acceptable excuse. If you put your characters in a position where they cannot take care of bodily functions for an extended period of time, then you'd better address it somehow. However, if there is any reasonable way for this to be handled off-screen, then you can assume that it did and move on.

On a related topic, I just saw I, Robot on DVD. (Never got to the theater.) One thing that bothered me was how Will Smith's character shot about a million rounds of bullets without ever reloading. He was obviously not carrying any ammunition and most of the scenes were continuous so there was no way you could assume he reloaded.

Possible excuses: 1) guns in the future can hold a million rounds. Bull. Even if they could, it needs to be explained somewhere. 2) It's just science fiction -- no one will care. Yes they will. I do. I'm tired of excusing bad plot elements because it's "just science fiction."

loquax said:

Are you telling me that it's okay for a character not to eat or sleep if the process is boring?

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Yes, unless the absence of eating and sleeping would be conspicuous to the reader. Even if conflicts based on mental strivings drive your story, the characters must have bodies in order to seem real.

Apparantly it used to be a habit among some tribes of Australian Aborigines that, when they spotted a stranger travelling on their land, they would sneak along behind him and spy on him for about two days, to make sure he wasn't a demon. The way they knew he wasn't a demon was if he occasionally passed water and ate and the like.

Loquax said:

Are you telling me that it's okay for a character not to eat or sleep if the process is boring?

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Yes. But what you seem to be missing is that if the person is doing something else for 24 hours straight and hasn't done anything, that fact becomes interesting.

Realistic but otherwise boring details should be mentioned exactly often enough that the reader's immersion in the story is not broken by the absence, and no more often than that. This number can be zero times if that's what it takes and it can be assumed to be covered elsewise, but it can also be fairly often, if, no really, the lack of sleep or bathroom breaks would be telling.

What qualifies as a boring but realistic detail *also* varies. We've covered examples above of interesting or inconvenient bathroom breaks.

The mention of washing, for instance, can be as little as, "He showered, and rushed out to the site.", or a whole scene in itself, if you're talking about Psycho.

Meals are often a good way of revealing character, or theme, or places where exposition, revelation, and plot can be put in, but sometimes they're just a bit of fried chicken, and can be left out in the chapter break.

Driving from point A to point B is a yawner - unless you're writing a road trip, or there's a snowstorm, or...

This is a bit more like it. Now we're getting where I wanted - a debate on the balance between realism and artistic licence.

Personally I'm on Roger's side. The ammo thing always gets to me (a normal machine gun clip lasts about five seconds if you hold your finger on the trigger.) And the cops always hide behind car doors. An air-rifle pellet could puncture a car door. As well as a bible in your left breast pocket.

Do you reckon it all comes down to personal style, or should we try to reach a general consensus?

P.S. Will Smith probably reloaded between scenes. You just didn't see it, because they thought it would be boring.

Re: POV characters

Stackpole also said sticking to three per 100k was a lesson he learned the hard way. So I was thinking, did some publisher deny an early work because of having too many POV characters, or did it just get too complicated for him to keep together? Perhaps I'll email and ask him.

Well, if you wanted yes or no, I guess you've gotten it, so I won't bore you with my answer.

Well, ok... here it is. If you need to. If the story requires it. If something interesting happens because of it. In neither of my books do any of the characters ever go to the bathroom on stage. Didn't see the need for it, it didn't advance the plot.

And isn't that what Uncle Jim always tells us? Every word should advance the plot. if it doesn't, get rid of it.

How's that?

Christine N. said:

And isn't that what Uncle Jim always tells us? Every word should advance the plot.

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Or reveal character (which UJ has always said too). I'm not sure I'd say every word. Every scene, maybe. I mean, how does "was" advance the plot? Just kidding...

I think that UJ's rule is a fantastic one to follow loosely, and is incredibly useful for cutting out filler. But I don't think it should be followed strictly. A lot of television comedy is off the cuff - random events that only serve for humour. Or intrigue. If I may again reference Mervyn Peake's 'Gormenghast', there seems to be very little plot. Throughout the book, there are strange little events and scentences that are not necessary. But they make me smile. Isn't that what's important?

Lenora Rose said:

Apparantly it used to be a habit among some tribes of Australian Aborigines that, when they spotted a stranger travelling on their land, they would sneak along behind him and spy on him for about two days, to make sure he wasn't a demon. The way they knew he wasn't a demon was if he occasionally passed water and ate and the like.

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Their motto was "Look Out for Number One."

reph said:

Their motto was "Look Out for Number One."

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OH! That's TERRIBLE!

Does any one else get caught up in editing before the rough draft is done, or is it just me? You know, I'm thinking of disconnecting my printer and stashing it in the attic so that I stop editing, and just WRITE. ARGH!!! Okay, vent over.

alanna said:

Does any one else get caught up in editing before the rough draft is done, or is it just me? You know, I'm thinking of disconnecting my printer and stashing it in the attic so that I stop editing, and just WRITE. ARGH!!! Okay, vent over.

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Sympathies, Alanna. That's a very common problem among writers -- and one of the reasons my "partials" box is about ten times heavier than my "completed" box. One of my biggest problems with this is that I MUST print out what I've done that day and go read it away from the computer or it isn't real. Of course, having a page in front of you in traditional manuscript format just begs for some markups. So I've been trying to only print pages out using single spacing. This means there's just no room for those comments you're dieing to put in (or, very little room, anyways...it's amazing how small you can write when you have to). So far it's mostly working.

Of course, this does nothing to keep you from editing endlessly online when you should be writing. With that I'm just taking a willpower approach. Whenever I get the urge to go back, I chastise myself and focus on what's ahead. Again, so far that's working, but only time will tell.

Good luck!

loquax said:

I just finished writing another chapter, and I realised that my characters hadn't eaten or gone to the toilet in a whole day.

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Wait a minute... characters get to pee?

:::runs off to edit everything:::

I've been lurking on this thread for a bunch of months (thanks Uncle Jim for all the great advice and lessons).

My take on the bathroom thing is that art isn't reality. We just need to write enough real stuff to make it recognizable. For some reason, my betas notice when my characters don't eat, drink, or sleep, but they never notice the lack of bathroom breaks, brushing the teeth, or flossing. So I leaves those out, unless they're important.

A great book where going pee isn't just important to the plot, but also a major theme is Richard Russo's "Straight Man." But I'm not that good a writer.

Ted