Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Sean Bosker · Jun 17, 2005

Story structure and dialogue.

Hi Jim,
I’ve only recently discovered this fantastic thread. I was up late last night reading it from the beginning, and I’m only up to page 40 but I couldn’t wait to ask two questions. I hope they haven’t been covered.

1. You suggested a plot trick that entailed creating two story arcs and then substituting the climax of the first in the climax of the second, and you gave The Miller’s Tale as an example. I enjoyed the read and the idea, thank you. I’ve been going over structure, and I came across this basic plot outline on this website.

Seven-Point Plot Outline for Genre Short Stories:

The Beginning

1. Character -- someone the reader can experience the story through

2. Conflict/problem (the "collision idea") -- the presenting problem in the story is not always the true conflict of the story, but it works best if it's related somehow.

3. Setting (where most newbie writers are very weak)

The Middle

4. Character tries to solve the problem

5. Character must fail (not for stupid reasons, though) and things must get worse (even better if the well-meaning actions of the character make it worse)--this is the most common plot development that beginners miss.

The End

6. Climax - character tries to solve the problem again (and either fails or succeeds--either outcome is valid)

7. Validation (shows that the story is over)

The thing is, I can’t fit the Miller’s Tale into anything approximating this outline. Am I missing something? I’m sure there’s more than one way to structure a tale, but the variance is so great that I’m wondering you think of this? Are they simply different approaches? Does the Miller’s Tale actually conform to this model and I’m missing it?

The other question I have is about dialogue formatting. I sometimes like to have one character interrupt the other, and I use an ellipsis to indicate the break in the sentence, but I’ve read in your posts that an ellipsis denotes a pause. Is there a better way to achieve the effect of dialogue interrupting dialogue? Example:

“If only I could have a steak, medium rare with...”
“Shut up about what you want for lunch and eat your MRE.”

Thanks, Jim, and the other posters. I really appreciate the work you’ve put into this thread.

alanna · Jun 17, 2005

Hi Sean! Umm... that's a very good question. Usually I denote an interruption with a dash, for instance:

"But-"
"No buts!"

Alright, I know. Horrible dialogue. Give me a break, I just wrote over a thousand words in less than half an hour. I'm a bit tapped at the moment. Uncle Jim- is this right? Or wrong? Or totally acceptable only if you're a freak of nature- which I am, so that would be fine.

triceretops · Jun 17, 2005

I also use the dash an a dialogue breaker.

Tri

reph · Jun 17, 2005

The Chicago manual says to use an em dash at the end of an interrupted speech.

Ellipses in fiction look wrong to me. The only truly proper use of an ellipsis I know of is to indicate missing words (or numbers: remember "1, 2, 3, . . . , n" in math?). Fiction writers nowadays use them for pauses and for speech that trails off. I'm too old.

maestrowork · Jun 17, 2005

... is for pauses, stuttering, or trailing off...

-- is for disrupted speech, or abrupt stop --

"I think...uh...that you should, maybe..."
"What did you say?"
"I am just wondering if--"
"Oh, I see, you want a raise."
"Yes, I deser--I mean I'd like one."

Sean Bosker · Jun 17, 2005

Thanks, alanna, trice, and reph! Looks like the dash will replace my ellipses.

James D. Macdonald · Jun 17, 2005

Ah, the seven-point plot outline! (Not to be confused with the three point plot outline.)

It works for the stories that follow the seven-point plot outline. It doesn't work for the rest. (Which is to say that I'm not a big fan of this particular Procrustean bed.)

Advantages of the seven-point plot outline:

It's easy to teach.
It gives the writer something definite to do.

Disadvantages:

You wind up with a story that follows the seven-point plot outline just like 4,529 of the other stories that hit Asimov's mailbox this month.

================

If it helps you get words on paper, follow it. Else, don't.

================

The three-point plot outline:

1) Get the hero up a tree.

2) Throw rocks at him.

3) Get the hero out of the tree.

reph · Jun 17, 2005

maestrowork said:
... is for pauses, stuttering, or trailing off...

Nothing personal, Ray, but do you have an authoritative source that endorses using "..." in those ways?

Deleted member 42 · Jun 17, 2005

Whether you use em-dashes, --, or ellipses to indicate broken speech doesn't matter. Just standardize the way you use them; it's a matter of house style, and the final decision is going to be made by the editor -- or the typesetter.

Just, for Pity's sake, don't pull a Barbara Cartland . . .

maestrowork · Jun 17, 2005

reph said:
Nothing personal, Ray, but do you have an authoritative source that endorses using "..." in those ways?

From the many books I've read.

However, just for yucks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

In particular:

An ellipsis can also be used to indicate a pause in speech, or be used at the end of a sentence to indicate a trailing off into silence.

reph · Jun 18, 2005

I meant something more authoritative, like a usage manual on the level of Chicago or AP. Finding ellipses used for trailing speech in many books means only that many writers (or a few prolific ones) use them that way. Wikipedia – well, where do its contributors get their information?

loquax · Jun 18, 2005

I take the stance that the English language is ours to use however we like. If hundreds of authors use ellipses in their works to indicate pauses, then that's authoritative enough for me. Surely an editor would say 'this is wrong, take them out'. And what's some guy in Chicago to tell them they're wrong in the first place? Isn't he the one who chose to leave out the 'u' in your spelling of 'colour'? I'd fire him.

aruna · Jun 18, 2005

It doesn't really matter what we use. Every publisher has their house style and adapt it to that anyway.

Christine N. · Jun 18, 2005

reph said:
Nothing personal, Ray, but do you have an authoritative source that endorses using "..." in those ways?

I found it in explained just that way in "Self Editing for Fiction Writers."

Ken Schneider · Jun 18, 2005

Seven point outline,three point outline.

I just write, and find when looking back at previous works, that my writing ends up with these factors anyway.

I'm sort of confused. I don't outline or do any fancy tricks to write. I have a story idea, and a thought of where it will start,a middle, and an end.

I start writing, ideas flow, the story and characters tell me what they will do by their previous actions.

Am I going about this the wrong way? Or, as I have, do what works for me?

I write, the story comes out naturally.

Do people really go through a paintaking process of outlining chapters and making the process of writing a job, instead of the joy of something they love to do?

I think I'll just write, and leave all that thinking stuff to the pro's.

scribbler1382 · Jun 18, 2005

changling said:
Seven point outline,three point outline.

I just write, and find when looking back at previous works, that my writing ends up with these factors anyway.

I'm sort of confused. I don't outline or do any fancy tricks to write. I have a story idea, and a thought of where it will start,a middle, and an end.

I start writing, ideas flow, the story and characters tell me what they will do by their previous actions.

Am I going about this the wrong way? Or, as I have, do what works for me?

I write, the story comes out naturally.

Do people really go through a paintaking process of outlining chapters and making the process of writing a job, instead of the joy of something they love to do?

I think I'll just write, and leave all that thinking stuff to the pro's.

You're confused. Did you just have a conversation with yourself? Well, thanks for letting us watch. I guess.

Ken Schneider · Jun 18, 2005

scribbler1382 said:
You're confused. Did you just have a conversation with yourself? Well, thanks for letting us watch. I guess.

I'm still confused, as that picture on your post appears to be Rod Sterling, instead of... Rod Serling.

Works both ways my friend, Let us try to be civil, not snide in our comments.

I asked two questions that I thought pertained to other writers, of which I wasn't aware. If you care to answer those with any knowledge you have, feel free.

Ken Schneider

reph · Jun 18, 2005

loquax said:
If hundreds of authors use ellipses in their works to indicate pauses, then that's authoritative enough for me....And what's some guy in Chicago to tell them they're wrong in the first place?

The "guy" is the editors at the University of Chicago Press.

I understand your point; I'm just not sure popularity makes a thing correct. After all, most writers use "comprise" inside out.

When did use of ellipses for pauses and trailing off become widespread? I don't remember seeing it until recently. That doesn't mean it wasn't there, but in my reading it seems to have appeared suddenly, and not at all in journalism and other nonfiction.

maestrowork · Jun 18, 2005

Reph, I think the Chicago only talks about the use of ellipses in citations, but not in dialogue or fiction. I don't have another authoritative source. But one can speculate where Wikipedia gets their sources.

The thing is, writers can write what they want, but if the mss. go through the whole editorial process by professional editors at BIG publishers that use specific (sometimes strict) style guides, then I should think even if the Chicago doesn't directly address the usage, we need to consider the merit of such convention, adopted by almost all major publishers and their editors.

Don't you think?

(Even if it's a recent thing, I'd still go with it since language is a living thing. I think if contemporary fiction uses ellipses this way, I have no problem following it)

James D. Macdonald · Jun 18, 2005

changling said:
Do people really go through a paintaking process of outlining chapters and making the process of writing a job, instead of the joy of something they love to do?

Some people do. It works for them. They enjoy doing it that way.

It's been entirely too long since I handed out an assignment. Memorize The Walrus and the Carpenter. Memorize the Death of Kings from Richard II. Okay, here's the next:

Memorize, and be prepared to recite from memory, "In the Neolithic Age" by Rudyard Kipling.

I promise you that this will improve your writing.

Ken Schneider · Jun 18, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Some people do. It works for them. They enjoy doing it that way.

It's been entirely too long since I handed out an assignment. Memorize The Walrus and the Carpenter. Memorize the Death of Kings from Richard II. Okay, here's the next:

Memorize, and be prepared to recite from memory, "In the Neolithic Age" by Rudyard Kipling.

I promise you that this will improve your writing.

I will accept that assignment, I'm all for learning and improving.

reph · Jun 18, 2005

maestrowork said:
Reph, I think the Chicago only talks about the use of ellipses in citations, but not in dialogue or fiction....

...if the mss. go through the whole editorial process by professional editors at BIG publishers that use specific (sometimes strict) style guides, then I should think even if the Chicago doesn't directly address the usage, we need to consider the merit of such convention, adopted by almost all major publishers and their editors....

(Even if it's a recent thing, I'd still go with it since language is a living thing....)

Chicago does address dialogue: it says to use dashes for "interruptions or breaks in faltering speech." The manual was written for the guidance of those writing (and editing, translating, etc.) scholarly nonfiction; it doesn't say everything fiction writers need to know about style. That's why I'm asking about other sources.

Have these other uses of ellipses really been adopted by "almost all major publishers" or just some publishers? American and British publishers both? How far back do ellipses for pauses go? If they began to appear in books ten years ago, it may or may not be a genuine historical change. Accepted changes in punctuation are slower than that. We don't use colons the way the King James Bible committee did, but they worked 400 years ago.

I have a problem with the "editors as gatekeepers" reasoning, because copy editors aren't trained as thoroughly as they used to be.

I'm wondering whether these uses of ellipses started as expressive devices in comic books, where captions carry much of the drama:

Our hero arrives at the scene of the crime...

or

Two weeks have passed and...

alanna · Jun 18, 2005

ooh goody! an assignment!

Doyle · Jun 18, 2005

Thank you Jim

I am down to the end of page 4, you remember all those years ago -- subimitted in Courier 12, but made my little header with name/title/page# in Courier 10. It kinda "softened" the top of the page but kept everything uniform. I will try and find Myrtle the Manuscript and the Unstrung Harp, but what I know about most things, it often comes down to a "break" -- ie, your good work arrives at the right time with the right person, just when someone else failed to fulfill the very need your good work suddenly addresses. Nature abhors a vacuum. So I will write well and submit, submit, submit . . . and many thanks for your advice thus far.

Doyle

jules · Jun 18, 2005

reph said:
How far back do ellipses for pauses go?

"There is one thing," I said, to allay the fears I had aroused; "they are the most sluggish things I ever saw crawl. They may keep the pit and kill people who come near them, but they cannot get out of it. . . . But the horror of them!"

From The War of the Worlds by H. G. Wells, first published in 1898. I don't know for certain that it was set like that in the first edition, but I can't think how else that effect might have been achieved.

Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Sean Bosker

Fig of authority

Fear the Death Ray

Sean Bosker

Your Genial Uncle

Fig of authority

Deleted member 42

Fear the Death Ray

Fig of authority

I verb nouns adverbly

On a wing and a prayer

haz a shiny new book cover

Absolute sagebrush

Write For You, Edit For The Reader

Absolute sagebrush

Fig of authority

Fear the Death Ray

Your Genial Uncle

Absolute sagebrush

Fig of authority

Bored fanatic