Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

James D. Macdonald said:

No one says you have to be a one-publisher author. I publish around. I know that any publisher out there can, at any moment, go crazy, melt down, go into a tailspin, or suddenly decide to switch focus.

As an author, remember what Granny told you: Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

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I think this is probably the best lesson to take away from "Richard"'s story (knowing as little as we do about the details). Thank you for your insight.

James D. Macdonald said:

Incidentally -- I use a shaving mug, and got my younger son a shaving mug (with a nice badger-bristle brush) for Christmas.

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Me, too...although mainly because a cousin of mine sells handmade soap, and so I got the mug, brush, and shaving soap for free...

Jim,

I have just started up writing again (aside from screenwriting), and was very pleased to find your thread. I am trying to read as many of the posts I can, and find them extremely helpful. I am currently on page 8.

Go ahead laugh, I know I have lots to catch up on.

I have many questions, which I'm sure will be answered as I mosey my way through the posts, but I'm curious about one thing.

(Forgive me if I'm rehashing an old subject)

In screenwriting there is a specific structure one must follow, a blueprint of sorts to keep us on track. We know exactly where to put every single piece of the puzzle-of course it's up to our highly creative minds to make all the pieces fit, but you get the idea.

Of course screenwriting and writing a novel are at seperate ends of the road.
For one a novel can be as long as you want it to be and in a screenplay you have between 90 and 120 pages to tell your story and that's it.

So, my question is....(I'm going to try to word this so I don't make myself out to be a complete amateur-although, I may fail)

When you write a novel, is there a structure one should have in mind? Do you say "okay, I'm not going to exceed x amount of pages, or x amount of chapters, and in so and so chapter that's going to be my middle point, and in this chapter I'm going to have a major plot point, or in this chapter I'm going to reveal this."

Or do you just get to it, and worry about everything else later?

Steph

From what I've seen around here before, most of us tend to work with a particular target length in mind (usually about 100k words, but varying by genre), but do not tend to have fixed points in mind (at least during planning stages) for when in the story major events occur. We let them happen in the outlining phase (for those who do it, or first draft for those who don't) and then correct the pacing afterwards if it feels wrong. But, certainly, many of us are always aware that the length of the novel makes a big difference to how easy it is to sell.

OTOH, if your story won't conform to those length expectations, it may just be better to write it and accept that the novel you have isn't going to be easy to sell.

Stephanie76 said:

When you write a novel, is there a structure one should have in mind? Do you say "okay, I'm not going to exceed x amount of pages, or x amount of chapters, and in so and so chapter that's going to be my middle point, and in this chapter I'm going to have a major plot point, or in this chapter I'm going to reveal this."

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Some people certainly do it that way.

Or do you just get to it, and worry about everything else later?

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And others do it that way.

"There are nine-and-sixty ways of constructing tribal lays
And every single one of them is right."

-- Rudyard Kipling (In the Neolithic Age)

You'll discover when writing novels that the master rule is "What works for you?"

No one but you reads your first draft.

James D. Macdonald said:

No one but you reads your first draft.

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And I'm thankful for it.

How would you display in print, a radio show in a car, and the occupants are listening to it? Double indent non-quote? Italics? Regular indent quote? Upper case quotes? Or any of these combinations? My gawd, I forgot how I used to do it. I just finished a T.V. annoucement, via a politician in all upper case. I'm wondering if I have to change this to conform to the way it is more commonly done.

Thanks in Advance

Tri

Jim,

Tomorrow starts my strict writing schedule and I am trying to balance my time between my first novel and my novel series. I am devoting 2 hours to my first novel (which is going quite well so far) and 2 hours to my novel series. I had a question about organizing the complex story of my novel series.

Everyone here knows how complex the story is. I've said it a million times - 80 characters, seven novels, 2 umbrella stories and tons of subplots. Should I spend all of my time constructing a detailed outline of the entire story and then begin once it's done, working from that? Or should I write each "scene" and then worry later what order they should be in? I want to construct an outline because the story is so complex but if I spend - say - 2 months doing it, without writing any real passages that will end up in the book, will that seem like I'm procrastinating? Could I write passages WHILE constructing the outline?

I have everything under control with my first novel, it's just figuring a way to organize my novel series that has be backed in a corner right now.

E.G.

E.G., I've a feeling you're going to receive several different answers to your question regarding outlining.

I'm not the most qualified person to hand out advice about outlines, as I didn't work from one when I wrote the Offspring series. A friend and mentor gave me hell about that, and showed me how to storyboard (semi-fancy term for a kind of "outline") using a simple excel spreadsheet. I've used the method since then, and it's made a significant difference in story management. The document is spare, consisting of a cast list, a few character notes and settings for scenes arranged by chapter.

Outlines are fluid, living documents. I can redirect fire on the run, modifying the document as the spirit(s) moves me. If I experience a sudden flash of inspiration in the middle of a chapter, a change that causes me to deviate from the outline, I keep writing. I'll modify the outline accordingly at the end of my BIC period.

So, it is possible to write as you build/work from your outline. I've also found an outline is most useful when I hit a wall or mid-book blues. Others may have a different take on the issue.

EG, from what I've read here and your other thread (novel series), I sense that you're too worried about the due process of writing novels (and in your case, the "series"). I really do recommend you LET GO and just write. There's no right or wrong way, only the "best" way for "you." And until you sit down and start writing and trying different things out, you never will know what is "best" for you. Maybe you need an outline; maybe you don't. Maybe you need to plan out everything; maybe you don't. Maybe you need a stand-alone first novel; maybe you don't.

But until you actually LET GO and just get into your world and write, you will never find out for sure.

Try not to overanalyze everything and just do the BIC.

I think I know where you are at this point -- you're stalling. Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I do think you're stalling. You're probably scared sh!tless because like you said, this is a complex story with over 80 characters, blah blah blah. I felt the same way with my current WIP -- I felt it was too "epic" for me to handle. I wanted to write it VERY MUCH, but I had a hard time deciding where to start and how to proceed. Mind you, I already have one novel completed and getting published. But I was stalling. It took me months to actually BIC and start writing. Once I did, it got easier and at times I still stall, thinking it's still too big for me. But it's all just distraction. Something to convince myself that "I may not be able to do this..."

I hope I'm wrong. But if I'm right, then my advice is just go for it. Worry about everything else later.

Egg, here's something you might like to try.

Start writing. Immediately. BIC, and just go for it.

Then, after you've spent your two hours, take another ten or fifteen minutes to mock up an outline of what you've already written. Very short, one of two lines per scene.

Start all over again the next day.

Let's say, perhaps, ten days down the road you go, "Sh!t! I forgot Carol was supposed to kill Susan in scene 405," you can simply refer to the outline and make a note on it to write the scene during your second draft.

Doing this not only gives you something to map your brain out, reviewing it at the end of the writing session will line you up for the next day's work.

Re: Outlining

Do you have an idea of what is supposed to happen throughout this epic plot? If you know where it's already going, it helps to at least write down what you know so far, so you don't forget. If the term OUTLINING freaks you out, then call it WRITING IT DOWN SO I DON'T FORGET.

I have found that once I start writing out the plot, my characters come alive within the story, and it really opens up the possibilities. I just sketch out the basics. "This stuff happens, and this person goes here" and voila I have my plot, and then I have bones to put meat on.

What Liam says is absolutely true. Your Outline is flexible. You made it, therefore you have the right to change it whenever and however you want. My outlines don't protest too much, so I do not fear them.

In the other case, if you really don't have a clue where you want to go, then I would follow this advice:

katiemac said:

Start writing. Immediately. BIC, and just go for it.

Then, after you've spent your two hours, take another ten or fifteen minutes to mock up an outline of what you've already written. Very short, one or two lines per scene.

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E.G. Gammon said:

Everyone here knows how complex the story is.

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There is no "right" way or "wrong" way to write. But all this thinking about writing isn't writing.

Here is your assignment: Go to lunch today at a Chinese restaurant. It must be a place with paper placemats.

Order hot and sour soup. (Hot and sour soup is Very Important to the process.)

While eating the hot and sour soup, draw a flowchart for your novel on the back of the placemat. It must all fit on that one placemat.

Take that placemat home with you, and stick it up next to your computer.

Don't post on line anywhere, for any reason, until you've written chapter one.

Then you can come back and tell us how it went.

Wow, UJ, that's what I did wrong! I ordered Wonton soup instead!

Roger J Carlson said:

Hey, that gives me an idea for another program: Adverb Eliminator. It'll work like this:

1. Make a copy of your file
2. Turn on Track Changes (MS Word of course)
3. Check every word to see if it ends in ly
4. If so, delete it
5. When done, you can go back and scroll through the deletions and either accept or reject it.

Could work. Thanks, Jim.

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Well, I did it. I wrote the Adverb Eliminator. It works pretty much as outlined above, but with the addition of an Exclude List for words that end in "ly" but aren't adverbs. For those who don't use (or are afraid of) Track Changes, I also wrote the Adverb Highlighter which does the same thing but just highlights the adverbs instead.

By the way UJ, I ran it against my 125,000 novel and came up with 1815 adverbs. That's a lot, but not nearly 25,000.

You can find them here:
http://www.rogerjcarlson.com/WritingHelp/TechTips.html

Roger J. Carlson, I tried your program and I liked it. I had many more adverbs than I thought, though the program did catch a few stray -ly words that weren't adverbs. Even so, I was over 700 -- far too many for a 106,000 word novel.

'Kay, Roger --

I hope that's giving you some insight into your writing.

Next -- look for empty phrases and words. Things that don't move the story forward. What we sometimes call "hesitation marks." "It seemed to him," and "as it were," and "And" or "But."

Eventually you may need to rip out a sub plot.

Or, if everything is a piece of the finished puzzle, no parts left over, no gaps, nothing forced -- you may need to admit that you wrote a 125,000 word book. If that's the case, ship it off and start work on your next.

alaskamatt17 said:

...though the program did catch a few stray -ly words that weren't adverbs.

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Yeah, it'll do that. Just copy and paste those words into the Exclude list in the program document and it will skip those next time.

James D. Macdonald said:

'Kay, Roger --

I hope that's giving you some insight into your writing.

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It does.

James D. Macdonald said:

Next -- look for empty phrases and words. Things that don't move the story forward. What we sometimes call "hesitation marks." "It seemed to him," and "as it were," and "And" or "But."

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My characters tend to start a lot of sentences with "Well,...".

James D. Macdonald said:

Eventually you may need to rip out a sub plot.

Or, if everything is a piece of the finished puzzle, no parts left over, no gaps, nothing forced -- you may need to admit that you wrote a 125,000 word book. If that's the case, ship it off and start work on your next.

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It think the bulk of my word reduction will come from exposition that my beta readers thought was boring. (I thought it was fascinating.) I guess I was "thinking out loud" when I was building my fantasy world. I believe I can remove most if not all of it without hurting the story.

"Skip the boring bits" is excellent advice.

"What with this-and-that some five years passed...."

Roger J Carlson said:

For those who don't use (or are afraid of) Track Changes, I also wrote the Adverb Highlighter which does the same thing but just highlights the adverbs instead.

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Clever, Roger!

Here's the reason I'd recommend going with the highlighter instead: a lot of times, adverbs (and adjective chain) are used because the precise word isn't known at the time, or doesn't come to mind, or doesn't exist. Eliminating the adverb doesn't fix that problem--the remaining text is still imprecise, just non-modified.

Instead, what I'd recommend is highlighting the adverbs (and, as UJ said, the "empty phrases" and then going through and trying to figure out what you were getting at when you used the adverb or empty phrase in the first place.

For similar purposes, another good pattern to look for would be [adjective], [adjective] or [adjective] [adjective], but w/o putting an entire dictionary into the macro that'd be much harder to figure out.

Also, "[of/in/outside/(etc.)] [the/his/her/(etc.)]" is another good one to look for--I've occasionally found chains of three or more prepositional phrases in my writing, and the effect on the reader can be quite yicky.

Of course, any of these can be valid. But they're worth examining before eliminating.

HTH!

-j

jdparadise said:

Clever, Roger!

Here's the reason I'd recommend going with the highlighter instead: a lot of times, adverbs (and adjective chain) are used because the precise word isn't known at the time, or doesn't come to mind, or doesn't exist. Eliminating the adverb doesn't fix that problem--the remaining text is still imprecise, just non-modified.

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Thanks.

Either way, you need to use judgment. The eliminator just marks them for deletion and you have to decide. But I was surprised with my own writing just how many could just be deleted.

jdparadise said:

For similar purposes, another good pattern to look for would be [adjective], [adjective] or [adjective] [adjective], but w/o putting an entire dictionary into the macro that'd be much harder to figure out.

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Sure. The "ly" thing is easy to figure out. That's the only reason I could do it. If Microsoft can't develop a decent grammar checker with all of its resources, what chance have I?

jdparadise said:

Also, "[of/in/outside/(etc.)] [the/his/her/(etc.)]" is another good one to look for--I've occasionally found chains of three or more prepositional phrases in my writing, and the effect on the reader can be quite yicky.

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I'm quite fond of long strings of prepositional phrases myself. Hmmm...a prepositional phrase highlighter...

Prepositional phrases don't pose as much of a problem for me as adverbs and forms of "to be." I'm editing my second novel by hand now, but as soon as I finish the massive overhaul I'll plug it into Word for an adverb trim. I'm sure it needs it.

James D. Macdonald said:

"Skip the boring bits" is excellent advice.

"What with this-and-that some five years passed...."

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It sure is - I used this technique to skip over the boring bit in the scene I was stuck on. I am sure its tedium was the main reason I got stuck. And, if it was boring to write, how excruciating would it have been to read?

With the time thing, I didn't even skip 5 years - I skipped about 30 minutes. I ended up with a shorter, snappier scene where the important story elements weren't buried beneath what would have been a really dull conversation.

I'm now over 20k and back in the swing of things (good) though have been a naughty BICer this week (bad).

alaskamatt17 said:

Prepositional phrases don't pose as much of a problem for me as adverbs and forms of "to be." I'm editing my second novel by hand now, but as soon as I finish the massive overhaul I'll plug it into Word for an adverb trim. I'm sure it needs it.

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What do others think? I'm considering a Preposition Highlighter (prepositional phrases are a lot harder), but is is worth it? If so, should I highlight ALL prepositions or just the most common ones? I was thinking of: in, on, into, over, under, to, at, by, for, from, of, off, up, down, near, past, outside, inside, towards, around, among, along, between, beside, below. (I suppose people could add their own or delete some if they wanted.)

The real question is: would it be useful?