Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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Mr Underhill

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Jason M. Dyess said:
...my wife... has found a few publishers who accept unsolicited submissions but request a marketing proposal. Her question is, "How do you write a marketing proposal for a novel?"

My addendum to her question is, "Should a writer submit to a publisher that wants an untrained person creating their marketing plan? Don't they have people who do that?"
Yes Mr Dyess, they will if they are a real publisher (Uncle Jim will probably go off on POD's and the like shortly). If they are a small publisher, however, they may only have one publicist covering the 10 or 20 titles they release each year. So the professional marketing people may not get to it until the project is on their horizon. Certainly a publisher will not have publicists working up a marketing plan for every proposal that comes across the transom.

What they are looking for in the proposal is an indication that the prospective author has thought all this through. For nonfiction this is crucial. In many cases the author will be directed to write the material to the market instead of the other way around. In fiction or literary nonfiction that obviously doesn't quite work, but they will still want to know that the author is cognizant of what other books are out there and what sells.

Once the editors and/or agents who screen proposals pick one they find interesting, they will next have to pitch it to the higher ups. At this point it is being evaluated as a business proposition as much as anything else. The acquisitions people will add some of their research and market knowledge, and are trying to convince the decision-makers that the project is going to sell. The more the author does to help this process, the more likely the proposal is to get pitched to the publisher.

For how to write the proposal, including a marketing plan, try your local library. There are entire books on this subject.
 

Jason M. Dyess

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Now I feel like a dolt. My wife has just informed me that it wasn't publishers that requested a marketing proposal, it was some agents that she had found. She can't remember how many of them did that, but she did know that at least one of them specified they wanted a marketing proposal for fiction.

Above questions still stand (thanks for your input, BTW, Mr. Underhill) with the exception of, "don't they have people who do that" (with appropriate replacement of 'publisher' with 'agent')
 
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Marcusthefish

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I would be slightly leery of an agent who requests a marketing proposal for a novel. I can imagine an agent asking for a description in dustjacket-copy style, and information about similar authors and books, but that is hardly a "marketing proposal." Novels aren't marketed the same way nonfiction is--they don't usually have a definable audience to aim publicity and promotion at, the way nonfiction books do. With novels it's ALL about getting the book into stores by convincing the big accounts--through your sales guys--that the company is behind the book.

By the way, I'm a book marketer by trade (scholarly/small press nonfiction).

MTF
 

Roger J Carlson

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Marcusthefish said:
I would be slightly leery of an agent who requests a marketing proposal for a novel. I can imagine an agent asking for a description in dustjacket-copy style, and information about similar authors and books, but that is hardly a "marketing proposal." Novels aren't marketed the same way nonfiction is--they don't usually have a definable audience to aim publicity and promotion at, the way nonfiction books do. With novels it's ALL about getting the book into stores by convincing the big accounts--through your sales guys--that the company is behind the book.

By the way, I'm a book marketer by trade (scholarly/small press nonfiction).

MTF
I hear a lot of conflicting advice. In his book: Book Report, Mark Shaw says that you when you create a query or submission letter, you should flatter the agent, submit a marketing plan, list other published works, etc. But in Writing the Breakout Novel, Donald Maase says that all he wants to hear about is the story. Other authors, agents, publishers, etc. offer differing advice about what the perfect query or cover letter is. Much of this advice is mutually exclusive.

Still, I'm not really sure what good a marketing plan is to an agent. While an agent may be interested in whether or not you want to be actively involved in the marketing, his or her job is to sell the book to a publisher, not market it.

I guess "be leery" is good advice. If it is followed up by a request to have the book professionally edited -- run!
 

maestrowork

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I think it's a good idea to talk to your agent about marketing ideas -- but you've got to have an agent first. In your initial query/solicitation, you should focus on the story. It's good to let the agent know you have marketing ideas and skills, but it's the story you're selling.

If the agent asks for a marketing proposal, then you should consider it (given that the agent is legit).
 

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Roger J Carlson said:
I hear a lot of conflicting advice. In his book: Book Report, Mark Shaw says that you when you create a query or submission letter, you should flatter the agent, submit a marketing plan, list other published works, etc. QUOTE]

I haven't read Shaw's book, but I bet he's referring to nonfiction submissions. For fiction, there's virtually nothing an author can do marketing-wise that will make a difference, unless he or she is best buds with Oprah's producer or the book review editor of Parade magazine, or is the leader of a massive cult whose members will flood bookstores and libraries nationwide when the book is published.

MTF
 

jlawrenceperry

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I think that what an Agent would be looking for, is how you as an author plan to help in promotion. Starting out, from what I hear, you need to be as proactive as you can, setting up your own book signing events, calling up bookstores, pitching to book reviewers, that sort of thing. I could be wrong, but maybe that's all they're looking for, is how you plan to do PR. So that they know you're not just some newbie who hasn't taken the time to read this stuff.
 

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James D. Macdonald said:
FWIW, I have not a friggin' clue what a "marketing plan" for a novel might look like.

Maybe "Roses are red/ Violet's are blue/ I'll sign people's bookplates/ I hope that'll do."
But Jim, you already told us what your marketing plan is:

Write first book. Sell it.
Write second book. First book sells second book.
Write third book. First and second books sell third book.
Write forth book. Books 1 through 3 sell fourth book.
Fourth book sales justify reprint of books 1 through 3.
Continue till death.
 

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In The 2005 Writer's Market, there is an article titled, Book Marketing 101,
by Sean Murphy. His novel, The Hope Valley Hubcap King won the Hemingway Award for a first novel.

The main theme of the article is . . . in this age of the overtly commercial enterprise of large conglomerate publishing houses, the responsibility of ensuring that the most thorough possible marketing takes place, increasingly falls upon the author.

I think we are only seeing the beginning of this self-marketing trend, and it will soon become common place for fiction writers to include their marketing plan in addition to their synopsis, whether submitting to an agent or directly to a publisher.

Writing is an art, and selling art always was and always will be a business.
 

maestrowork

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I think some agents or publishers (especially smaller ones) just want to see if the writer knows this is a business, and that they must be proactive in promoting their books... some writers can be clueless, as in "Huh? I just write my book and you do the rest...") I don't think the agents are looking for a 30-page strategic plan on how to sell the book, but more like whether the author even knows what marketing/promotion is about...

I think. So far I've only seen one agent (legit) ask for "marketing ideas" during the query phase.
 

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jlawrenceperry said:
I think that what an Agent would be looking for, is how you as an author plan to help in promotion. Starting out, from what I hear, you need to be as proactive as you can, setting up your own book signing events, calling up bookstores, pitching to book reviewers, that sort of thing. I could be wrong, but maybe that's all they're looking for, is how you plan to do PR. So that they know you're not just some newbie who hasn't taken the time to read this stuff.

Your job is to write the book. It's your publisher's job to publish it--and that includes marketing, sales, and promotion. I would tread very lightly when "helping" your publisher do something that they have done hundreds or thousands of times. Offer to help, yes (especially smaller presses, who might actually need and appreciate it) but don't be surprised or get huffy if they don't accept it. Let them do their jobs. Authors who are too proactive run the risk of annoying the folks who are working on their behalf.

MTF (book marketer by trade)
 

Mr Underhill

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JAlpha said:
. . . in this age of the overtly commercial enterprise of large conglomerate publishing houses, the responsibility of ensuring that the most thorough possible marketing takes place, increasingly falls upon the author.

I think we are only seeing the beginning of this self-marketing trend, and it will soon become common place for fiction writers to include their marketing plan in addition to their synopsis, whether submitting to an agent or directly to a publisher.

Writing is an art, and selling art always was and always will be a business.
This is it exactly.

The fact that this is an agency asking for marketing information with the proposal indicates to me that they probably work with very business-minded publishers.

My experience is with nonfiction/small presses, like Marcus, but what I hear is that the large conglomerates have been eliminating their slush pile process. They find no value in paying editors to review unsolicited material, so this process now devolves upon the agents.

So, picture the approval process. The people from the agency will be going into a boardroom somewhere on a middle floor in midtown Manhattan. Dress code is artsy-corporate, a tall Starbucks cup at every seat. At the head of the table is the guy from the Pink Floyd song Have A Cigar. Your wife's agency is pitching several proposals for him, trying to convince him of their profitability. Other agencies are waiting outside with competing line-ups. Corporate acquisitions editors are there trying to shoot holes in all the proposals to see if they can take it.

So what the agency wants from you is ammunition for that meeting. They are going to add to it, sure, but they at least want some leads from the person who has so far thought the most about the project: the author. Things like who will be reading the book, what books might be similar, or at least have appealed to the same demographics, and what was their Amazon rank. These sorts of things. Books that are commercially oriented will do well in that process. If they are more artistically oriented, perhaps small presses might be a better way to go, where things aren't so crazy (just eccentric).

Take all that with a huge grain of salt. It's my understanding of the current reality at big publishers. But of course they are sprawling empires with many imprints, and surely there are pockets left here and there where they do things the old-fashioned way, trying to keep the corporate barbarians outside the gate. And there must be agents who can act as able translators, fluent in the milieu of the artist in the morning, and the commerce-crazed suits in the afternoon. At least I hope they exist.
 

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Marcusthefish said:
Your job is to write the book. It's your publisher's job to publish it--and that includes marketing, sales, and promotion. I would tread very lightly when "helping" your publisher do something that they have done hundreds or thousands of times. Offer to help, yes (especially smaller presses, who might actually need and appreciate it) but don't be surprised or get huffy if they don't accept it. Let them do their jobs.

Fine, but that doesn't jibe with what I've read from other published authors who write on the topic. From our own Jenna Glatzer to Holly Lilse. Nobody says, "don't worry, your publisher and agent will push your book." You have to hit the con circuit; you have to put yourself on your first tour. Publishers put the most marketing power behind the biggest-selling authors, and a first-timer hasn't sold anything, so the marketing power behind them is very little, unless the publisher has reason to believe very strongly in the book.
 

Liam Jackson

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I only have limited experience with this issue. However, for what it's worth:

The only question my agent asked that was even remotely related to marketing was, "Where do you see this book fitting in?" (in terms of niche or genre) Then, my agent went into a rather extensive explanation of our professional roles. Regarding sales, it fell something like this:

"Your role is to write the books. My role is to sell the books to publishers for the best possible deal. The publisher's role is to find a way to put those books into the hands of the masses. Don't give them tips. When it comes to moving product in large quantity, listen to your publisher."

Oddly enough, he also said something very similar to a statement made by Jim D. That being, "Companies have spent millions of dollars determining which shade of blue triggers the buying urge, which shade of red triggers the hungary (That's Texan fer 'hungry') urge, etc. Let those folks worry about mass marketing. They'll let you know when they need you."

My publisher asked the same question early on, about niche/genre.
An editor also gave me this advice about marketing: Network with your peers, make yourself available for events that will promote you as a "person and an author." If and when we need help marketing the book on a grand scale, will yell for you. (This was said with a smile and a wink.)

At no time did anyone tell me not to market my book as the opportunity presented itself. Whet they did say was that writing and advertising are two different (albiet loosely related) disciplines. I would also think had I wrote a niche book on the "Configuration Management for Widget Production", my part in the marketing scheme would be far more important.

Just my two cents.
 
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It seems a darn shame that a book must fit nicely onto one and only one shelf. I'd love to write a science fiction horror romance, or a comic historical mystery. I'm just afraid I'd be told, "We can't market this." Wouldn't such a book appeal to more people than peruse just one shelf?

I've got a techno thriller in my head that is set forty years in the future and involves a ghost from WW2. I'd write it funny, if I wrote it at all. I'd make sure it had elements of mystery, horror, action, psychological drama, and anything else I could think of.

Is there any point in trying, though?

I suppose it could be easily pigeonholed as science fiction. Those fans are tolerant of experimentation.
 

maestrowork

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Well, you've got to put it on the shelf somewhere. Is it in the Cereal aisle, or the Crackers, or the Cookies, or Snack food? Must make up your mind.
 

jlawrenceperry

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LiamJackson said:
The only question my agent asked that was even remotely related to marketing was, "Where do you see this book fitting in?" (in terms of niche or genre) Then, my agent went into a rather extensive explanation of our professional roles. Regarding sales, it fell something like this:

"Your role is to write the books. My role is to sell the books to publishers for the best possible deal. The publisher's role is to find a way to put those books into the hands of the masses. Don't give them tips. When it comes to moving product in large quantity, listen to your publisher."

That goes along with what I originally thought, myself. I could have misinterpreted the things I have learned, too.
 

maestrowork

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I agree... let the publisher do their job. Just write more good books!

However, remember, you are the name under the title of the book, so even though the publisher bought the rights, it's still YOUR book and you still need to claim ownership of it. Meaning, you still must do your part to promote it because it is your work and your name in question. It's no time to be shy about it. Talk about it like you talk about your kids (unless, of course, you happen to hate your kids and wish they were never born....)
 

Roger J Carlson

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The Gambler

Jim,

Last night as I drove home from work, Kenny Rogers singing The Gambler came on the radio. I haven't heard this song in years -- probably since before I started writing. .

On a warm summer’s evenin’ on a train bound for nowhere,
I met up with the gambler; we were both too tired to sleep.
So we took turns a starin’ out the window at the darkness
’til boredom overtook us, and he began to speak.

He said, son, I’ve made a life out of readin’ people’s faces,
And knowin’ what their cards were by the way they held their eyes.
So if you don’t mind my sayin’, I can see you’re out of aces.
For a taste of your whiskey I’ll give you some advice.

So I handed him my bottle and he drank down my last swallow.
Then he bummed a cigarette and asked me for a light.
And the night got deathly quiet, and his face lost all expression.
Said, if you’re gonna play the game, boy, ya gotta learn to play it right.

You got to know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you’re sittin’ at the table.
There’ll be time enough for countin’ when the dealin’s done.

Now ev’ry gambler knows that the secret to survivin’
Is knowin’ what to throw away and knowing what to keep.
’cause ev’ry hand’s a winner and ev’ry hand’s a loser,
And the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep.

So when he’d finished speakin’, he turned back towards the window,
Crushed out his cigarette and faded off to sleep.
And somewhere in the darkness the gambler, he broke even.
But in his final words I found an ace that I could keep.

You got to know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you’re sittin’ at the table.
There’ll be time enough for countin’ when the dealin’s done.
What amazed me was how evocative it was. There are only 321 words in the song, but it tells a complete story. There is metaphor, foreshadowing, and the description is wonderful. It's so minimal yet I can see the two of them there. I'd probably write it something like this:

It was hot in the train car that evening. I didn't know where I was going and I didn't care. The guy across from me was a gambler. I could tell by the black frock coat and string tie...
I'm at the stage where I can recognize good description and most of the time I can see HOW it was done. But when am I going to be able to DO it?
 
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Liam Jackson

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Mr Underhill said:
You know, I was kind of thinking of catching the next flight to Budapest...

Keeping Friendly Skies friendly LOL

Okay, that's enough for me me. When urges become countries, it's time for sleep. Night, all :)
 

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jlawrenceperry said:
Fine, but that doesn't jibe with what I've read from other published authors who write on the topic. From our own Jenna Glatzer to Holly Lilse. Nobody says, "don't worry, your publisher and agent will push your book." You have to hit the con circuit; you have to put yourself on your first tour. Publishers put the most marketing power behind the biggest-selling authors, and a first-timer hasn't sold anything, so the marketing power behind them is very little, unless the publisher has reason to believe very strongly in the book.

I just don't agree that it's worth the author's time and effort to try to be a publicist and promoter. The odds of those efforts significantly affecting sales are simply too slim

MTF
 
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bkrrh85

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Last year at the SCBWI conference in the Raleigh/Durham area, I heard Linda Sue Parks, a recent Newbery award winner, address that very topic.

Her consensus: you can either be a writer, or a book promotionist. She said she chose to write.

It makes a lot of sense to me, although I DO understand the concerns about first-time authors not having the publicity bucks behind them like a big name author would.

Perhaps the answer is in a compromise between the two?
 
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