Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

wurdwise said:

Let's see -- 1968. Does your protagonist go to see Night of the Living Dead in the movie theatres? Or want to and be forbidden because of the article in Reader's Digest that her granny read? What's on TV? News about Vietnam? Is the TV black and white? How are people dressed? How do they talk?

If the exact date isn't important to the story, you can just not mention. But you, the author, should know exactly when it is. Follow it out on the calendar. Note what was happening. Be consistent. Your sureness will make the reader trust you.

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Yup, put a date on it if it helps you, but if the author (you) know what date it is, put in th details. I usually don't like to spell out the time/date for the readers -- it makes the book seem dated, unless there's a particular reason like I'm doing a back story or something or the story happens at a specific time (like WWII). Otherwise, I leave it vague but I would fill in some details so the readers would get a feeling of the time, and if they're astute enough, they'd guess the date. For example, in one scene I mentioned "The Last Temptation of the Christ" at a theater... I mean if you really want, you can do an imdb search and find out when exactly that movie came out...

They do that a lot in movies. No SUPER saying "1975 NEW YORK CITY." Just by looking at the scene most people would know it's the 70s in NYC if they get the details right!

I was wondering . . . aren't you supposed to AVOID anything that "dates" your aritcle/book, i.e. specific slang that will be out of vogue in a couple years, in order to keep your article/book in print longer?

Unless, of course, I guess, there's a special reason to have your work set in a special time frame. I think historical fiction does that a lot.

What do others think?

There's no "dating" in classics. Details add flavors to your story. How are you going to transport your characters to your world if you only go with generics?

You talkin to me? Nothing I do will be generic! Perish the thought. I got it, no dates. My reader will be immersed in the 60's and it won't take them long at all to figure out where they are. Thanks loads, all of you, these answers have been great, so much help.

A page or two back Uncle Jim suggested that someone look up the Celtic Knot posts from way way upthread in either the Undiluted or the Index. I went to the index to find it for myself and discovered that I hadn't really done a good job of calling out the Celtic Knot post as such, much to my chagrin. Well I've edited that one *and* I put a number of other posts that one might want to quickly reference at the top of the first post of the index.

If anyone thinks of a topic that should be in the quick reference, please PM me and I'll add it.

maestrowork said:

For example, in one scene I mentioned "The Last Temptation of the Christ" at a theater.

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A detail. I think that title was "The Last Temptation of Christ," not to be confused with "The Passion of the Christ."

Even within the U.S., the flavor of 1968 depended on your location and subculture. That was the year of the Summer of Love, if I recall correctly, but sexist and racist assumptions remained standard in some places.

reph said:

Even within the U.S., the flavor of 1968 depended on your location and subculture. That was the year of the Summer of Love, if I recall correctly, but sexist and racist assumptions remained standard in some places.

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I thought about that yesterday, reph. And we are talking Texas, the south, so the racial thing was a big issue, and we were far behind the northern states in our attitudes. I was a feminist back then, so I've got that one covered!

And I already have a scene where Maddy and her grandma deliver fans to the "east side" and the "poor part of town" and her wondering if all small towns are like that, with sections named for your color our your financial status. Many scenes in my novel are already back there, I just didn't know it. However, I have consulted with a good advisor and I am going to have to start from scratch. There are too many changes and misstarts for it to be a rewrite any longer. That's ok, it's the only answer and it takes what it takes. I can use scenes, but they will have to be rewritten, the cutting and pasting is over.

I am also going to read two suggested books that were written in that time frame before I start. I think that will jog my memory and put me in the mind set I need. I will try to rely on memory for as much as I can, another piece of advice that was priceless, and do the research along the way as I come to something crucial that requires facts. If I try researching first, like I said to her, I could get lost in the 60's and never find my way back!

wurdwise said:

I could get lost in the 60's and never find my way back!

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You'd have plenty of company.

maestrowork said:

There's no "dating" in classics. Details add flavors to your story. How are you going to transport your characters to your world if you only go with generics?

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Who said anything about being "generic" or leaving out details? How boring. What I had heard was very simple type things, like uses of slang, like, ah, "groovy" or "cool" in contemporary fiction caused them to, for lack of a better word, go "out of style."

Doesn't mean they're not good fiction, aren't filled with plenty of juicy, lively details. Look at some fiction from even as early as ten years ago--filled with references to the "new" technology--lap top computers, cell phones even belonging to children, etc.

I'm just saying (with reference to kids books) that I've read (more than once from published authors and publishers--again, kid books) that one should avoid using phrases that date your writing, unless there's some reason - like exploring a particular period, like it sounds like wurdwise is doing - to do so.

I think I get what Ray meant, and it wasn't an insult or nor did it say anything about leaving out or putting in details, just that the details, such as cell phones, computers, slang, things that "date" are generic tools to show a time frame, a cheap trick, if you will, when what you really have to do is immerse your reader in the reality of said time frame and the details will follow. Am I right, Maestro?

Okay, I gotcha. I wasn't insulted, just thought maybe I wasn't communicating clearly. I'd say "happy trails" but I really mean "happy writing"!!!

To Kill a Mockingbird is definitely set in a certain time and place (though I don't recall that a year was ever given).

Peyton Place is again set in a definte time.

So is A Separate Peace.

All of these, and many more, were evocative of a time and place. Generic can be wishy-washy. Your readers are hoping that you will help them see the world more clearly.

(Many years ago I wrote a YA book set mostly in gangland Chicago. During the course of my research I found the day of the week* when Bugs Moran was released from Joilet before he joined Dion O'Bannion's bootleggers. That never appeared on the page, but I knew it. I like to think that having those little details in my head gave me a sureness that the readers appreciated.)

*Sunday. He was in on a breaking and entering beef. (I also know what brand of cigarettes** he smoked.)

** Clown brand.*** Why do you ask?

*** Which may well have contributed to his death from lung cancer in 1957.

Summer of Love

reph said:

Even within the U.S., the flavor of 1968 depended on your location and subculture. That was the year of the Summer of Love, if I recall correctly

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1967. 1968 saw the assassinations of Dr King and Robert Kennedy, and the demonstrations at the Democratic National Convention. 1969 was the year when riots and demonstrations got very heated, and the year of the first Apollo moon landing.

Here's a "Hippy Timeline" I have just found.

Oh, my Mr. Underhill! What a treasure trove for me to dig through. Thanks so much for posting that link. Like wow, man, that's far out!

I want to read "Moving Mama to Town" which was recently written but the story is set in the 60's and it's a middle reader by Ronder Thomas Young, a southern writer. It is on many recommended school reading list. Jalpha told me about it. Another one Granny told me about is called "Buttermilk Hill" by Ruth White. I think reading how other recent writers handled going back there will help more than reading someting actually written in the 60's. Between that and the site Mr. Underhill gave me, some tech research to make sure I'm realistic about TV's and telephones and such, words and styles that fit the language, along with my memory, I can do my book justice, for I can see myself totally getting into it, taking the reader back there with me, when I was trying to move my memories into the present with the novel I was writing. I am so happy about this decision, whew...I feel like I've been saved in the nick of time.

Not to change the subject, everytime I come here I learn something new, But I have a question.

I am 20K words into my WIP and it looks like it is ending fast. I have two main characters, one minor, and one in between the two (with a few walkons). Now, I know that every character believes that they are the main character in their own story. My question is, is it a reasonable proposition to tell the story three or four times, once from each characters POV, right up until the climax, then run through the climax from the final POV? (or something like that.)

Would that work? Does anyone know of any books that do this well, or at all?

Can't tell without reading the story.

It might work. Why not try and see?

I'm sure it's been done, but darned if I can remember any examples right now. In film, there's always Rashomon.

I think The Poisonwood Bible does that to some extent.

MacAllister said:

I liked The Poisonwood Bible very much--but know lots of other readers who either hated it, or couldn't get through it at all...

So how well did it work? *shrug*

I guess it depends.

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I didn't like the story per se but the way the story was written was pretty neat.

I need help! Ok, so they say it's a woman's perogative to change her mind, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

I said I wanted to take my novel back to the 60's, but I am finding myself resisting this, and I'll tell you why. First, the only reason this idea came to me was because people kept telling me that my 13 year old protagonist sounded too immature for 13. So, at first, I thought i needed to bone up on how kids talk now days, which led me into a passle of all kinds of things I thought I should take into consideration other than words, like current trends. But I bucked at that, instead thinking maybe it was my voice coming through, since what other yardstick did I have to go by but my own memories of how a 13 year old thought and felt? That's when I got the bright idea to go back to that time.

However.....my whole plot is based on her best friend Corey being a ultra geek and he finds her mother's death certificate on the computer, how Maddy learns her mother has been dead for years. By going back to the 60's, Corey would have to become a completely different character, for there were no computers for kids, and of course they'd have to find out she was dead another way, but that wouldn't be a big deal, it's just that I am balking at changing him and changing the whole novel just because someone said Maddy sounds immature. I could make her younger, maybe 11. I am stuck. You see, part of the thing with the innocent sound of the story is that it is based on the town I live in, which is actually noted for the fact that it is like going back into the past, famous for it in fact. People come from all over the country to tour the old Victorian houses and the quaint shops downtown. My town strives to keep it that way. So this innocence is still in place. Of course, I'm sure all the kids are by no means innocent and there's plenty going on that goes on everywhere else, but the thing that really got me to thinking about the wisdom of me making this major change, besides COrey the geek, was a girlfriend telling me on the phone last night that her 16 year old has no desire to get a driver's license.

So I guess, bottom line is that I can't decide if I should study up on words that kids use to make Maddy sound more modern, change her age to younger, or change the novel to the 60's. That option is sounding more and more unappealing. Maybe I just don't want to do the work it takes to make such drastic character and plot changes, I have been wanting to finish this novel for months and move on to freelancing, but I can't see me putting it aside to do that, I might not ever finish it. Or maybe I just think kids keep thinking the same way, no matter what era.

I know that no one else can tell me how to write this story, but I am torn and would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Jason M. Dyess said:

My question is, is it a reasonable proposition to tell the story three or four times, once from each characters POV, right up until the climax, then run through the climax from the final POV? (or something like that.)

Would that work? Does anyone know of any books that do this well, or at all?

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Doesn't that pretty much describe every book by William Faulkner? Each chapter by a different narrator?

Or, did you mean telling the exact same events from different POV's? This is quite common in movies. Rashomon that Uncle Jim noted is perhaps the first example of this, but more recently there are numerous examples. Hero is one. Pulp Fiction does this to some extent, plus another Tarantino-esque one not too long after it – Jackie Brown perhaps? Something like that. One main scene involved a confrontation in a shopping mall, IIRC, and is shot three times following different characters. Also the experimental film Timecode which has four continuous shoots running simultaneously for the duration.

Wurdwise--

Sounds like a pickle, to be sure. When my kids were teens, even though they were "good kids" they certainly weren't innocent in the same way we were back in the 60s.

Maybe you could do some "kid" people watching, like baseball games (should be some coming up), or malls--lots of kids hang out there.

I guess it all depends on who you're wanting to read your story, and what the theme is. You said earlier it is character driven, so in that sense, whether it takes place in the 60s or 2005s, if your themes are things kids today can relate to, either way would be "safe."

Wish you the best of luck on revisions!

That's kinda where I'm leaning. The theme is universal and timeless. I think I'm just going to finish the damn thing and be done with it. I will use as little slang as possible, but if I do, hell, I had Corey call Maddy a mind muncher in one scene, which is a word i made up, so I may make up my own friggin slang! Thanks for the good luck wish, I'm going in and I ain't coming out till this puppy is finished!