Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

EGGammon, I suggest the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. Large cast of characters, long, involved plots, happening over many books. With each book, new characters are added, and some are subtracted. The characters are handled pretty well.

James D. Macdonald said:

How many of those characers are major characters?

How many are just walk-ons?

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MOST of them are main characters AT CERTAIN POINTS. The series (right now) will have seven novels. The first novel has around 50 characters, some who are just minor ones. There are several main character deaths within the first book, then during the last chapter, I kill off 8 main characters. The next book picks up where the first left off - those who were minor characters start to become main characters and others are picked off by supernatural means or the serial killer. The entire cast of characters is never together ALL AT ONCE. Some show up later, some of them are killed, or some leave town to make way for other characters and those who left, eventually return, when the time is right.

I don't know how your series progresses, obviously, but if you get me to care about your characters, I'd definitely be p*ssed off if you keep killing most of the main ones off. By book 2 or 3, I won't want to invest emotionally in any of the characters because I won't see the point, so I'd stop reading the series. Killing off a main character here and there is okay, but constantly killing them off probably won't work too well for a soap opera series, where caring about the characters and their lives is key. I mean, it sounds like you're killing off at least ten main characters in the first book. If most everyone I care about is dead, why read book 2? Just my opinion, of course.

brinkett said:

I don't know how your series progresses, obviously, but if you get me to care about your characters, I'd definitely be p*ssed off if you keep killing most of the main ones off. By book 2 or 3, I won't want to invest emotionally in any of the characters because I won't see the point, so I'd stop reading the series. Killing off a main character here and there is okay, but constantly killing them off probably won't work too well for a soap opera series, where caring about the characters and their lives is key. I mean, it sounds like you're killing off at least ten main characters in the first book. If most everyone I care about is dead, why read book 2? Just my opinion, of course.

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I didn't say you necessarily care (in a good way) about all of them. A couple are the "villains" of the first book. And others' deaths just set up things to come. There is a lot of death in the first book but the rest of the books are about the consequences/after effects. The series isn't a blood bath or anything. Yes, a lot of characters die in Book 1, but they don't in novels after it. If my series was one episode of a tv show, the first book would just be the "teaser."

And you said: "I mean, it sounds like you're killing off at least ten main characters in the first book. If most everyone I care about is dead, why read book 2?" 10 of more than 50. There are plenty left behind after the kill-off and more to come. Plus there is a growing mystery that will (I assume) draw readers in.

The reason why I kill off so many main characters in the first book is because in later books, if a character is in trouble (for instance if one is dangling off a cliff - this is no where in my series) I want readers to feel for the character's life. If I never killed off any main characters, you would KNOW the character in trouble wasn't going to die and you would read the scene like this: "Oh, he's just dangling off a cliff. Someone will come along and save him. He's a main character. He won't die."

E.G. -- How far have you progressed? Have you reached the end of the first book yet? The second?

Maybe reading War and Peace would help you in working with large casts. Maybe not. But I tell you for true: It won't teach you a tenth as much as writing the novel.

So ... what have you gotten done so far? It doesn't have to be finished and polished, but do you have first draft yet?

James D. Macdonald said:

E.G. -- How far have you progressed? Have you reached the end of the first book yet? The second?

Maybe reading War and Peace would help you in working with large casts. Maybe not. But I tell you for true: It won't teach you a tenth as much as writing the novel.

So ... what have you gotten done so far? It doesn't have to be finished and polished, but do you have first draft yet?

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I'm getting there. I have a lot of passages written and printed and I'm trying to organize them. I have all of the "scenes," it's just finding out where they go that's taking so long. It's like I have a huge puzzle, and I'm putting the pieces together. I also wanted to hold off finishing the first book until I did a little research and reading on how other writers tackled a large cast of characters and an involved plot.

And you said: "I mean, it sounds like you're killing off at least ten main characters in the first book. If most everyone I care about is dead, why read book 2?" 10 of more than 50. There are plenty left behind after the kill-off and more to come. Plus there is a growing mystery that will (I assume) draw readers in.

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50 main characters is a lot. It'll take a huge amount of skill to introduce 50 characters in a single book (of reasonable length) so that the reader will care about all of them. Are you sure you mean 50 main characters?

brinkett said:

50 main characters is a lot. It'll take a huge amount of skill to introduce 50 characters in a single book (of reasonable length) so that the reader will care about all of them. Are you sure you mean 50 main characters?

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Ah... you understand my dilema. There are 50 main characters, well most of them. Soap operas have a large cast. During this project's creation, I never thought I would be faced with this problem, having to introduce so many characters in so few words. I thought it could be done in 100s of episodes not one novel. And I think you hit the problem right on the head here: of reasonable length. I don't expect my first novel to be "of reasonable length." There's no way it can be. Parts of the book aren't even written yet and I've exceeded 100,000 words. The length and the fact that it's a series with novels that aren't stand-alone novels are two problems I will face when trying to get it published. But, I am confident that the amazing, epic story I have created will help agents/publishers look past all that. Only time will tell.

50 main characters? Good lord. Even if you do have a large cast (soap opera, war and peace, space opera, whatever) you still should focus on a handful. Look at Star Wars... sure a lot of them are more than just "minor" characters -- Yoda, Obi-Wan, The senate, etc. -- but when you examine it closely, you'll realize we're only folllowing a handful (Darth Vader, Leia, Solo, Luke)... the supporting cast is there to support and advance the story. They're not focal characters.

Egg, I do think you have a spiral out of control problem here. I might be wrong, but 50 characters? And at 100K you're still nowhere near done?

You'll be testing your readers' patience... maybe you should consider writing a serial instead.

maestrowork said:

50 main characters? Good lord. Even if you do have a large cast (soap opera, war and peace, space opera, whatever) you still should focus on a handful. Look at Star Wars... sure a lot of them are more than just "minor" characters -- Yoda, Obi-Wan, The senate, etc. -- but when you examine it closely, you'll realize we're only folllowing a handful (Darth Vader, Leia, Solo, Luke)... the supporting cast is there to support and advance the story. They're not focal characters.

Egg, I do think you have a spiral out of control problem here. I might be wrong, but 50 characters? And at 100K you're still nowhere near done?

You'll be testing your readers' patience... maybe you should consider writing a serial instead.

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Maybe all 50 aren't MAIN characters. There is one I REALLY focus on, from the beginning to the end (of the series). Then there are characters a little less important than that one (still main in a "supporting" role, like you said), then there are some minor and the "occasional appearance" ones. If you grouped my characters into "MAIN" and "MINOR" then most of them would be MAIN. But, I guess there are levels in between those two divisions.

I am a little over 100K but WAY OVER half-way done. I have pretty much every scene written out, but they aren't organized. They are just in pieces, and I have to figure out where they go in the story. I've been holding off finishing it, until I can get all of these problems straight.

What's the difference between a SERIES and a SERIAL?

A series is like Harry Potter...

A serial is TV... episode after episode, and eventually you have volumes. I think the Dark Tower series were originally serials? I could be wrong....

maestrowork said:

A series is like Harry Potter...

A serial is TV... episode after episode, and eventually you have volumes. I think the Dark Tower series were originally serials? I could be wrong....

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You may be confusing Dark Tower with The Green Mile (originally published in "volumes" each being released only a few months apart, instead of over a year apart like your average novel series). So a serial novel series would mean MORE, but SHORTER novels?

E.G. if this is the book that's filling your heart, let it out. Write it fully, the best that you can. Perhaps you'll publish this one, perhaps you'll publish others. But until you've written this one you won't know what you have and what you can do.

James D. Macdonald said:

E.G. if this is the book that's filling your heart, let it out. Write it fully, the best that you can. Perhaps you'll publish this one, perhaps you'll publish others. But until you've written this one you won't know what you have and what you can do.

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I REALLY think that with a lot of hard work, I can pull this off, no matter how hard it sounds. I really do. Ok, I'm going to stop dwelling on how hard this is going to be, and just do it.

EGG--

I have occasionally read books with very large casts of characters, but I sure don't like to. Inevitably, three of their names start with the same letter, they're all men (or women), all tall dark and handsome, or whatever. I have a hard time keeping track of a rather reduced cast of characters (less than 50), never mind such a huge amount.

How on earth do you keep track of all them???? AND, there's all the details about each of them. They can't ALL possibly be major characters. The book I'm working on has four major, major characters--occasionally one gets killed or maimed, and another pops in at the right moment, along with a handful of minor, and somewhat more than minor (but not major), characters.

The thing I find interesting is that, now that I have finished my first draft and am reworking my chapters, my characters are so much more familiar to me and I am able to "update" them in my revisions, and they become more real and alive and individual. That, I think, is a distinct plus!!

Happy writing,
Ranneh

bkrrh85 said:

EGG--

I have occasionally read books with very large casts of characters, but I sure don't like to. Inevitably, three of their names start with the same letter, they're all men (or women), all tall dark and handsome, or whatever. I have a hard time keeping track of a rather reduced cast of characters (less than 50), never mind such a huge amount.

How on earth do you keep track of all them???? AND, there's all the details about each of them. They can't ALL possibly be major characters. The book I'm working on has four major, major characters--occasionally one gets killed or maimed, and another pops in at the right moment, along with a handful of minor, and somewhat more than minor (but not major), characters.

The thing I find interesting is that, now that I have finished my first draft and am reworking my chapters, my characters are so much more familiar to me and I am able to "update" them in my revisions, and they become more real and alive and individual. That, I think, is a distinct plus!!

Happy writing,
Ranneh

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How do I keep track of them all? I've been living with these characters for over seven years. I know everything about them. I guess because I have been writing them and their stories for so long, it may be easier for me to describe them in novel form, because I have SO MUCH in my mind of what they look like, who they are as people, and what they mean to the other characters. And, unfortunately, they are all pretty major characters. Book One introduces 2 MAJOR stories plus all of the character subplots. As the series progresses, the 2 MAJOR stories become one, and we find out those seemingly unconnected "subplots" interconnect and link to the major story. Over seven years... the story is very well developed - very involved and complex. Almost everyone is a major character at one point. There are some that aren't. And there is one character who is the MAIN focus over ALL of the characters. If you want to look at it like this: there's one main character, a slew of supporting ones (on the verge of being main characters) and several minor.

A better question: how do you ensure that your readers can keep track of them?

maestrowork said:

A better question: how do you ensure that your readers can keep track of them?

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I wonder the same thing! You may have lived with them for seven years, but your readers certainly haven't. BTW, are any of these published works, yet? If not, perhaps it is time to introduce the world to some of these folks, before you add yet more!

Ranneh

I'm thinking the same thing. Seven years is a long time and this is a highly complex project you've worked very hard on, that's easy to disern. Maybe it's time these characters got a road test.

E.G. Gammon, George R.R. Martin's A Song of Fire and Ice series has a huge cast, many members of which get killed off.

I've stopped reading it because it's too much to keep track of, even with the wholesale slaughter in the most recent book.

bkrrh85 said:

BTW, are any of these published works, yet? If not, perhaps it is time to introduce the world to some of these folks, before you add yet more!

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wurdwise said:

I'm thinking the same thing. Seven years is a long time and this is a highly complex project you've worked very hard on, that's easy to disern. Maybe it's time these characters got a road test.

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No, none of this has been published yet.

And how would I "introduce the world to some of these folks" and give "these characters a road test?" if my work isn't really finished?

EGGammon said:

And how would I "introduce the world to some of these folks" and give "these characters a road test?" if my work isn't really finished?

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Short stories.

James D. Macdonald said:

Short stories.

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Do you mean just a couple short stories, trying to get them published in anthologies or magazines or do you mean a short story collection, trying to get it published as a novel?

For comparison, Les Misérables has a big cast: one main character, several other important characters, and a considerable number of lesser characters who are more than walk-ons. It's in two volumes.

Dr. Zhivago has a big cast, too. But only a handful of main characters.