Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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NicoleJLeBoeuf

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Fresie said:
Great idea, Nicole. Everybody who wants to participate in this thread will have to pass the test first... :Trophy:
No no no no no. Not test, not something you have to pass--just a poll. Personality quiz sorta thing. One might even create some sort of .sig geek code based on it, only I never completely figured out how those worked in the first place.
 

NicoleJLeBoeuf

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Christine N. said:
Yes, this is probably true. LOL

And I was always under the impression from my grade school English teacher (and my mother, who taught HS English, so she kind of made it mandatory to use good grammar 'round my house) that it was:

Sex, drugs and rock 'n roll and NOT Sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll. Because commas signify the word "and", so having a comma before "and" was redundant.

But it's been a while since I went to school - have the rules changed that much?
How does that pro-serial-comma propaganda go? "I would like to thank my parents, Ayn Rand and God." Sometimes it's useful to put a comma before "and".
 

Inspired

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The current English grammar books for 5/6 grade say to use the comma before the and. I just taught that section to my class. I also just corrected their English homework yesterday - that's the least of their problems!
 

alaskamatt17

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Serial Commas

The only place you need look to settle this argument is page 2 of The Elements of Style. In business names, it's okay to omit the last comma in a series; everywhere else, it's not. Or it's not supposed to be. I see it happening more and more frequently, and I have to say it annoys me. A comma does not mean "and," it's only a signal to pause. Most people, when speaking, would pause before the last phrase in a series, so the comma should stay.
 

reph

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The series comma isn't right or wrong; the choice depends on level of formality. Academic publishers use that comma and newspapers don't.
 

Deleted member 42

Warning: The Serial Comma Question is an editorial religous issue. Do not enter the fray.

If your editor likes the serial comma, why then, you are a loyal adherent; if your editor doesn't like the serial comma, then you shall cast it from your manuscript as heresy

Never come between two editors "discussing" the serial comma.

Never take them to a bar to lubricate their argument.

You can't afford the tab. None of us can.
 

Alphabeter

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But as long as we refer them to this thread and say "Uncle Jim said it was [not] okay" we should be fine.

Right?!
 

Christine N.

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Yeah, I guess things like that really are up to the editor. But I remember clearly being in grade school (or was is Jr. High) and being told that a comma could take the place of the word "and". If you were writing a list, instead of writing "Bananas and cheese and milk and eggs" you write "Bananas, cheese, milk, eggs." I also remember that if there was a doubt about a comma, to read it out loud and substitute the word "and" for the comma to see if it still read correctly.

And commas, of course, signify pauses when not used in a list.

But, then again, I'm old. Once you hit the mid-30's, it's all downhill. Most of the things I know are probably different now.

I'll leave it alone - I just want someone to tell me I'm not losing my mind :)
 

TashaGoddard

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I am an editor and am in general against the serial comma. However, if I'm working for a publisher which uses the serial comma as house style (e.g. Oxford University Press), then I will use it. It is not a definite grammatical yay or nay, but a matter for house style. (There are situations where you do need to use, though, regardless of house style and I will quite happily break the 'rules' in these cases.)

As Medievalist says, it is an editorial religious issue. We can get quite het up in our arguments about it (like Mac users vs. PC users in the computing world); but at the end of the day it's the publishing house (or specific list) that sets down the rules.
 

Lenora Rose

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There are also times the serial comma is in for clarity, as when some item in the list also includes an "and".

"We invited Rochelle, Gary, Teresa and her new beau, and Edgar."

The pot luck spread included chips with guacamole and salsa, meatballs, macaroni and cheese, greek salad, and home-baked buns."
 

book_maven

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New question, Uncle Jim

I am a relative newcomer who writes nonfiction, primarily essays and book reviews. But I have had this novel rolling around in the back of my mind for several years. I guess I'd describe it as a thriller given that it is a fictional "explanation" (the "real" story behind the real story) for an international incident that took place in the 20th century.

My question is this: Is there any problem using real politicians and military personnel along with fictional additions as I tell this "story"?

P.S. I think this is the right place to post this. I did check out the index to this thread as well as the other discussions to try and determine that.
 
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James D. Macdonald

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I guess I'd describe it as a thriller given that it is a fictional "explanation" (the "real" story behind the real story) for an international incident that took place in the 20th century.

I've seen that genre called "secret history."

My question is this: Is there any problem using real politicians and military personnel along with fictional additions as I tell this "story"?

The more public a person, the less protection that person has. Remember Forrest Gump meeting Lyndon Johnson? But that won't stop a real person from suing you, if that's what you're asking.

Do you have them doing bad things? Are they acting out of character?

The best I can tell you is -- write the story the best way you can, then let the publisher's legal department worry about it. Tell a strong story. Without a strong story, the question will never come up, since the story won't get published.
 

book_maven

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I have begun it, Jim, and I believe it is a strong story. I don't have them doing bad things. Rather I am writing what I believe they might have done if this had been real. Thank you!
 

Dawno

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Lenora Rose said:
There are also times the serial comma is in for clarity, as when some item in the list also includes an "and".

"We invited Rochelle, Gary, Teresa and her new beau, and Edgar."

The pot luck spread included chips with guacamole and salsa, meatballs, macaroni and cheese, greek salad, and home-baked buns."

I love it that this topic has come up as I am presently reading Eats, Shoots and Leaves. I know it has been out awhile but I just got my hands on it and can't put it down.
 

katiemac

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That's funny you bring the book up, Dawn. I just heard about it the other day (it caught my eye because I know the joke which has the punchline for the title) and I couldn't resist to play the punctuation game online.

I passed! Woohoo.
 

James D. Macdonald

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[font=Trebuchet, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Congratulations to Viable Paradise graduate David Moles on being a finalist for the John W. Campbell Award for Best New Writer.[/font]
[font=Trebuchet, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Congratulations to Viable Paradise graduate Greg van Eekhout on his nomination for a Nebula Award.[/font]
 

JohnLynch

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Wow, congrats to both of them.

Uncle Jim, I have a question on endings. From memory, you've said three things about them (that I've read anyway):
1) Don't abandon your characters (e.g. everyone dies), because it comes across as just abandoning them. It's like you just bored of writing so you decided to end the story. The good guy nearly always wins. Readers want that.
2) Have the story end at the climax. Anything after the exciting bit is just boring. Write the story, and then delete the last page if it doesn't add anything.
3) Have the story end when everyone is going to go for pizza.

I'm writing a short story (I should probably write this in the short story forum) and for the story #1, #2 and #3 seem to conflict with each other. When this happens, is this a sign of a bad story?

Here's an attempt at a brief synopsis of the story:
Millenia ago society was quite advanced, a bit more then our own. Something happened and anarchy ruled. Over the millenia people forgot about the olden times and a medieval society formed once more. Old ruins were discovered and the King created a secret society to research the ruins and try to learn from their technology and recover any working stuff.

The main character Theron, a woodsman and part-time tax collector for a small town is forced to escort a strange man from the King to a place in the woods that no beast or plant enters. He has to do it if he wants to keep his job as tax-collector. He does so and the "sorcerer" pulls out some old technology and tells Theron a little about his true identity. He steps into the clearing and promptly dissapears. After several hours Theron enters the clearing and falls to the ground, when he lands on it he is "transported" to some old building with no windows. He walks through it and finds several animals that have been experimented on, and are now part animal-part machine. He finds the sorcerer who has began to be mutilated himself.

The sorcerer explains that metal-men have began to steal animals all over the kingdom, and that this is the first time they dared to enter their lair.


Now I'm a bit uncertain as to how to end it. My first thought was to have the sorcerer be attacked because he attempted to free one of the villagers who had been stolen in the night (I had a fair bit of foreshadowing for that) and to get Theron to leave, have the sorcerer tell him that the roof in the first room is only an illusion (which is why nothing grows in there, everything falls to the ground). And to go to his saddle-bags and pull out an explosive and throw it into the entrance to block the entry/exit. Tell Theron the metal-men will ignore him if he doesn't try to destroy anything and if he makes it out before night (the metal-men are robots so their hunting program doesn't kick in until nightfall). I was going to have Theron escape, constantly being worried about the time, and block the entry-way and ride back to town to tell the mayor what happened so the mayor can tell the King.

The problem with that ending is that isn't really the ending. The mayor is likely to insist that Theron go with him to the King to tell the King what happened, and then the King is likely to send some more "sorcerers" to destroy the other entrances in the woods (there's quite a few), and the metal-men are then likely to retaliate, etc, etc, etc. The story continues to grow quite a bit longer. He isn't really going out for pizza at the ending I suggested. A war is likely to occur.

So I thought of a new ending. The metal-men attacked the sorcerer before the sorcerer did anything because they're designed to do this if any beasts enter their lair. Theron tries to escape, but if the sorcerer, whose well trained couldn't escape, neither can a simple woodsman, so he's attacked and dies/mutilated.

But that's an "everyone dies" ending, which is no good.

In books I tend to ask "what next?", which is what I've done with this short story. I keep asking "what next?", "what next?", "what next?" so the story never ends. And I really only wanted to write a short-story in the first place (I've been avoiding writing the story because I don't think it's that great, but I do remind myself that yes, I can write crap. As long as I write). So how do you suggest I work out how to end it? Or how do you suggest I end it?
 

James D. Macdonald

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JohnLynch said:
In books I tend to ask "what next?", which is what I've done with this short story. I keep asking "what next?", "what next?", "what next?" so the story never ends. And I really only wanted to write a short-story in the first place (I've been avoiding writing the story because I don't think it's that great, but I do remind myself that yes, I can write crap. As long as I write). So how do you suggest I work out how to end it? Or how do you suggest I end it?

I suggest that you don't end it, because I don't see an ending there. At least, not yet. You've just gotten your characters into trouble.

(With our first novel, we were still calling it "the short story" when we hit 200 pages.)

Don't worry. When you come to the climax, you'll know. How will you know? Because suddenly the characters who had been acting purposefuly start wandering around and one of them says, "Hey, why don't we order out for pizza?"

As I see things, none of the characters have changed in any fundamental way, nor have you reached a natural stopping point.

Face it -- you've just finished the setup for a longer story than you had in mind. You've left too many "why"s lying around on the ground.

You aren't in a rush. Keep writing. See what happens.

(You want to learn how to write a novel? There's no substitute for writng one.)
 

JohnLynch

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James D. Macdonald said:
As I see things, none of the characters have changed in any fundamental way

Face it -- you've just finished the setup for a longer story than you had in mind. You've left too many "why"s lying around on the ground.
Alright, I'll give it a go. Nothing like a published author suggesting you keep writing to encourage you ;) And I have two goals for the story to progress towards. Have at least one character change in a fundamental way. Answer more of the "why's" I've created, probably by working more of the backstory into the novel. Thinking about it, Most of the stories I like include those two things. Are there any other suggestions you have on elements I should include in the story?

Oh, and one other thing I have to do with this story is NOT re-write ;) That was my first reaction when I saw you suggest I keep writing. I was thinking "well I'll have to re-write the beginning to introduce more characters. I'll need to introduce a student/friend of the sorcerer because Theron just isn't going to be able to carry a longer story by himself." But no, instead I'll just continue on from where I'm at now, and either include flash-backs or back story if it's necessary, or just write the extra scenes out of when I come to the point where I think it's really necessary, so the story is out of order at first, and re-order the scenes upon completing it.


James D. Macdonald said:
You aren't in a rush. Keep writing. See what happens.

(You want to learn how to write a novel? There's no substitute for writng one.)
I was going to attempt a novel once I finished this "short story" and had some of the story already written in my head. Instead I'll just make some notes and shelve it for now :)

Thanks for the advice.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Some of the Whys: Why's the king sending the sorceror?

Why's the sorceror obeying the king's orders?

Why are the machines interested in creating animal/machine pairings?

-----------

More characters? About time for our wandering pair to run into someone who's been living like a rat between the walls at this strange place.

Don't do flashbacks or backstory unless absolutety necessary.
 

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Well...it's official. I've started yet another WIP. Difference is, this time I know for certain where I want to go with it.

I suffer, however, from fear of writing trash. I know many writers say they don't expect to write very beautifully on the first go, at least all the time. It's what I've always tried to do, and pushing ahead so quickly with this WIP is leaving some rough patches I don't like. I know it can be fixed in a rewrite, but I feel that sometimes I lose the 'mood' of that section when I go back....

Any thoughts on that, from the writing gods?
 
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