Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Eowen said:

Given all that, I was wondering if Uncle Jim would be willing to answer some questions about some very specific instances where he has used song lyrics in some of his novels.

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Okay.

First, how did you come up with the lyrics used in the Mageworlds novels?

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Wrote 'em.

Are they in any way inspired by specific real folk songs, or are they wholy original?

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In one case, a WWI aviator's song ("Beside a Belgian Staminet"), which was itself a parody of a 19th c. dying hobo song ("Beside a Western Water Tank"). In the other, a song from the Klondike gold rush ("The Young Britsh Rancher"), which was a parody of Kipling's "Young British Soldier."

Second, do any of the songs have verses that were not used in the novels?

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In those cases, no. In the cases of other songs, for other books, there are entire songs that aren't used at all.

And for the non-musically inclined, do you have a better explanation than mine for why the song lyrics were more appropriate than a section of prose in the places where they were used? (My explanation is something along the lines of, It Just Fits.)

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It was something that was going on at the time (a drunken wake, for example), not the point of the scene. And it was brief. And funny all on its own. And -- if I were writing those books today I might not have used them.

Finally, did you have any particular melodies in mind for any of the lyrics you used? I ask because I can half hear certain folk songs in the back of my mind when I read the lyrics.

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I always have melodies in mind; that's what keeps the rhyme and meter working.


One book, (Horror High #7, Pep Rally, by "Nicholas Adams" was based entirely on a song -- but that was special circumstances. The series editor had gone on maternity leave without comissioning the last two books of the series, but without telling anyone, either. So ... one day at the publisher's, they noticed when the printing date was coming up, that they didn't have a text to send to the printer. "Ooops!" they said, and called Known Fast Writers. We landed that one.

The song ...

We decided on a heroine who would be menaced. Her name was Rachel Atmore (changed to Cathy in the finished book, for reasons that ... well, it was stupid, but global search-and-replace fixed it). Story would have worked better with the original name. Y'see, as Rachel, her nickname would have been Rache, which is German for Revenge (Study in Scarlet, anyone?) which was her function in the plot. So, who was going to be dead for her to avenge? Her buddy, Jennie. Who became Jenny Buddy, thence Jenny Brody. Which led to the song, (to the tune of John Brown's Body)

Jennie Brody's bloody body's bundled in a body bag,
Jennie Brody's bloody body's bundled in a body bag,
Jennie Brody's bloody body's bundled in a body bag,
But her legs go marching on.

Gory, gory, Jenny Brody....

Which gave enough plot to drive the story.

James D. Macdonald said:

Jennie Brody's bloody body's bundled in a body bag,
Jennie Brody's bloody body's bundled in a body bag,
Jennie Brody's bloody body's bundled in a body bag,
But her legs go marching on.

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...and thus we come back full circle to zombie attacks. *snrk*

Seriously, "Gods forfend Stephen King had been a student at that school; Carrie would never have gotten written" was running through my head. What can we do, other than write "shame on you" letters to Kentucky's legislators?

Gah. I have two friends who were still in high school the year after Columbine. They both own very lovely trenchcoats, and one of them was told she'd be expelled if she kept wearing it to school. I think she managed to resist that one via reducto ad absurdum: "And should I stop wearing underwear, too? And shirts? How about I come to school naked? I mean, the Columbine murderers weren't just wearing trenchcoats; they were wearing clothes!

Atlanta Nights vs. Slush

I've got a question for those of you who've done time in the slush pile. I'm in the middle of Mylanta Nights (I hope I spelled that right) and wondering how it compares to the actual submissions you've seen.

I'm not trying to knock other writers, I'm just curious. Roughly what percentage of slush is as bad as that? For discussion purposes, assume the chapters of AN were actually in order.

Please, for the sake of my sanity, tell me it's not that bad out there. If it is, I have some old stories from gradeschool I need to mail out right now.

As slush goes, Atlanta Nights is actually pretty good. It's got punctuation and most of the sentences have verbs.

Atlanta Nights falls into the category of So Bad It's Good. Most of your basic slush falls into the categories of Bad, Just Plain Bad, and So Bad It's Bad.

You want the Slushreading Experience? Go over to fanfiction.net, start anywhere, and read story after story for four straight hours.

For far more on this, check out Slushkiller.


I promise you: If you can write two consecutive pages of grammatical English with standard spelling you are already in the top ten percent of the slush heap. (This shouldn't give you too much hope, because the sales come from the top one percent, but still....)

That's it, Jim. Fanficiton.net. After reading that for four hours straight as you suggested, I am now blind and will never write again.

Happy?

To the tune of Okie from Muskogee

We don't write 'bout zombies in Kentucky
We don't write 'bout vamps or boogiemen
We don't set our stories in the high schools
Or cops will come and take us to the pen.

James D. Macdonald said:

You want the Slushreading Experience? Go over to fanfiction.net, start anywhere, and read story after story for four straight hours.

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Sending me there was a very mean thing to do. You don't even know me.

The usual response to reading slush is to suddenly discover that you're a much better writer than you thought you were.

James D. Macdonald said:

The usual response to reading slush is to suddenly discover that you're a much better writer than you thought you were.

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This is so true. Even the little bit we've gone through now amazes me.

I'd always realized that everyone can't write. I guess I'd just assumed most of those who can't realized it and didn't try to submit.

You know what they say when you assume...

That was my first glimpse of fanfiction.net. I was tempted to bring a few choice sentences back here for display, but I balk at ridiculing anyone in public.

Nevertheless, I promise you that some of the stories at fanfiction.net are good, because these are stories that can't be legally published (copyright and trademark violations if anyone tries).

With the general run of on-line fiction, there's a ceiling to how good it is -- by the time someone is writing mysteries that are of publishable quality, they go off and get published. Not so of fanfic: No matter how good your Star Trek story is, if you weren't commissioned by Paramount, it's never going to be printed.

Can you imagine going through all the stories there trying to find the good one? That's the slush heap.

Okay, how many of you have seen the movie All That Jazz? Go see it, okay?

Look at the opening scenes, with all the dancers on the bare stage. Think of those dancers as stories in the slush heap. See that guy in the boots, telling some of them to leave and asking some of them to stay? Think of him as the editor. See those guys sitting in the audience? They're the editor-in-chief and the publisher.

Hi, Andreas!

My father lived and worked in Brasil for many years (for Eucatex, near Sao Paulo). Lessee about your questions:

aplath said:

1) If I can get my act straight in english as far as grammar and spelling goes and assuming that my stories are worth translating from portuguese, do you think the fact that I'm a foreign writer would be a hindrance in any way when submiting my stories?

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No, where you live won't make any difference to US publications. The quality of the story really is what counts.

2) Even though I believe my english is quite decent, having a few native english speakers beta readers is probably a good idea. Is it possible to find people willing to do that through the net (here for instance)?

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Yes, definitely get a native speaker or two among your beta-readers. Check out some of the on-line workshops, if you don't happen to have a native English speaker who lives nearby (and who would be interested).

3) Although I realize that there are several paying markets for short stories in the US (and perhaps UK), I am not aware of them since I live abroad. Where can I find reliable information on those including genre and submission guidelines (and perhaps examples of what kind of stories they publish).

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How about the on-line version of Writer's Market?

For Fantasy/Science Fiction, you could try ralan.com
For mystery, try ClueLass
For romance, try Gila Queen

Many magazines have their own web pages with their guidelines listed. Once you know the name of the 'zine, start searching. (And, really, read an issue or two of any market you're planning to submit to. See if what you've written would fit there, and see if they've got a 'zine you'd want your work to appear in.)

If you can lay your hands on any "Year's Best" anthologies, see where the stories first appeared. Those will be your top markets.

Writing stories is hard. It takes talent and skills and practice. I'm sure many seasoned novelists would look back on their first works and shake their heads: What was I thinking?

Many people can write competently. They can construct grammatically correct sentences, write a well thought-out letter, express themselves fluently in personal essays. But when they sit down and write a "story," they stumble. I did. I still do sometimes. There are a lot of skills going into writing an interesting, gripping, page-turning story with good characters. Many people don't bother to learn these skills, and that's why they're in slush.

Maestro posted:

Many people can write competently. They can construct grammatically correct sentences, write a well thought-out letter, express themselves fluently in personal essays.

That's me, all right.

But when they sit down and write a "story," they stumble....

That's me, too.

There are a lot of skills going into writing an interesting, gripping, page-turning story with good characters. Many people don't bother to learn these skills....

Interesting that you call them "skills." I think of them as "personality traits that the Talent Fairy chose to bestow on somebody else." Even more interesting that you imply they can be learned.

Can someone whose chief identified strength is wit "learn" to produce commercially acceptable fiction pieces longer than one sentence?

reph said:

Can someone whose chief identified strength is wit "learn" to produce commercially acceptable fiction pieces longer than one sentence?

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Yes, I believe so (else I'm wasting my time and everyone else's time here).

Here's something for you to try. Take an old, bad joke.

Write it out at short-story length, with description, dialog, scene, and so on.

Here you go: Write this one at 5,000-7,500 words. Modern, realistic. Then send it out to paying markets 'til Hell won't have it:

There are these two guys going on a skiing vacation. They drive way up into Vermont, and they get lost. It's late, it's snowing, the roads are narrow and all look alike ... when they see a light on in a farmhouse. They pull up the drive and knock on the door.

A beautiful young lady answers the door. They explain their predicament, and ask if they can stay the night.

She says, "Yes, I suppose so, but it wouldn't be right for you to stay in the house, since I've recently become a widow and I'm alone here." They agree to stay in the barn.

The next morning comes, the guys get up, the lady gives them breakfast and directions to the highway, and they're off. They have a great vacation.

Nine months later...

One of the guys is sitting in his office when he gets a long-distance phone call. He listens for a while, very quiet. Then he dials his buddy.

He says, "Do you remember when we went on that vacation last year?"

"Sure do," his buddy says.

"And you remember getting lost?"

"Yep, sure do."

"And do you remember sleeping in the barn there?"

"Yeah. The straw sure was scratchy."

"Well, did you happen to wake up durning the night?"

"Yeah, I did. I had to go to the bathroom."

"And did you happen go up to the house?"

"Well, there wasn't a toilet in the barn...."

"And while you were up there, did you maybe make mad, passionate love with that nice young lady?"

"Yeah, I guess I did...."

"And did you happen to accidentally tell her you were me?"

"I meant to tell you, honest!"

"Well, I just got a call from her lawyer ... and she's died and left me fourteen million dollars in her will."

-=--

Note: The story you write doesn't have to be funny, or even have the same punchline. It can continue past that point. Other things can happen.

Now, go write the story.

Ooo, Jim, that's good. Can I post that in "Exercise and Prompts"?

Sure, Maestro. Just point back to here.

Refinement on the exercise: take two old, bad, unrelated jokes, and combine them into a single story. Same requirements.

I just wanted to say hello and that I am reading this very long thread. I'm not sure where I fit in here, but surely will find a spot soon.

Jim, thanks for all the information you so freely give throughout AW.

James D. Macdonald said:

As slush goes, Atlanta Nights is actually pretty good. It's got punctuation and most of the sentences have verbs.

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You know, I read that and thought it was just one of those things you say to make a point. But then I went and visited fanfiction.net and the second sentence of the first story I've ever read on that site ever didn't have a verb in it.

The mind boggles.

aplath said:

Write down that one sentence. And then keep writing.

Andreas

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Oh, you don't understand. My first published story was one sentence. It was complete in itself without needing a second sentence.

My second published story was two sentences.

Hmm.

James D. Macdonald said:

Here's something for you to try. Take an old, bad joke....There are these two guys going on a skiing vacation. They drive way up into Vermont, and they get lost. It's late, it's snowing, the roads are narrow and all look alike ... Now, go write the story.

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I'd have to leave out some things, because I have very little experience with snow or driving. So maybe I could do it in three sentences.

Reph, if every sentence you write contains an entire story, then you should have no problem writing the largest (by magnintudes) epic in history, in under sixty K!

Think of the possibilities Reph!

if capturing the universe in every sentence is your STRONG suit... consider yourself blessed.

If you fail to use it for the benefit of Novel-kind. Consider yourself cursed.

reph said:

That was my first glimpse of fanfiction.net. I was tempted to bring a few choice sentences back here for display, but I balk at ridiculing anyone in public.

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[laughs]

The folks over at Godawful FanFiction aren't so squeamish about dishing out well-deserved ridicule.

Whenever I get discouraged about my abilities as a writer, I head on over to ff.net and browse awhile. It's my equivalent of reading slush, and it helps every time.