Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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Crusader

Re: A world with rough edges

Accidental inspiration occurs in a world with rough edges. It's those things we didn't really calculate, or quite mean to say, or a blurt, that sometimes says more than it is meant to say.

I think in our desire to be perfect, sometimes we become sterile instead, which is unfortunate. It's the impurities in the water that give it the flavor.


100% agreement--in fact, i wish i'd said all that. =)

But anyway, i simply note that a writer needs to be aware of, and check for, the difference between creative interpretation versus goofing up a key detail.
 

Nateskate

I agree

Something sloppy is another matter altogether.

When I used to write songs, I'd find accidental inspiration all of the time. I'd write the song to mean one thing, but in listening, I'd hear another meaning, more profound than intended.

Perhaps some people are prone to metaphorical speech, and subconsciously say things.
 

reph

Re:

Perhaps some people are prone to metaphorical speech, and subconsciously say things.

Yes, I believe that. I also believe that ordinary people under stress do the same thing.

Some stories get great power from being metaphors. Shirley Jackson's best ones, for instance.
 

maestrowork

Re: A world with rough edges

Metaphors are great for conveying concepts, feelings, ideas and sensories. They also help conjuring up images and stimulating our imaginations. However, they're not very effective in telling stories.
 

reph

Re: A world with rough edges

Maestro, I disagree. Metaphors can be used to great effect in telling stories. For instance, a scene might describe something physical–oh, I don't know, maybe some feature of the landscape–and you wonder why because it seems tangential, but in fact it foreshadows something important about a character. It sets the reader up, unconsciously, for the "real" story.
 

maestrowork

Re: I agree

Reph, true, it can be a good device in that sense. But still it's about conveying an idea (something symbolic, for example) or concept -- one that is not apparent to the readers at that time, but clear later on. For straight narration, I prefer simple stuff instead of metaphors. I do use metaphors in symbolic/foreshadowing ways.
 

James D Macdonald

Public Service Announcment

I'm told that this entire bulletin board will migrate to another place sometime in the next two weeks.

We're assured that all posts and forums will remain intact. That this move will be transparent to the users.

Helicopter rotor blades are also transparent to the users. This doesn't help when you walk into one.

If (and I flatter myself to say so) you've found posts in this group worthwhile, now might be a good time to make your local copies.
 

ChunkyC

Re: A world with rough edges

One thing that will change is the address of the site, the URL. We'll all need to update our links. Keep an eye on the top of the main page, Jenna will likely post the new address there in a week or so, or in Announcements.
 

ChunkyC

Re: I agree

That's the spot, all right. Jenna might put something there soon, so we should keep a lookout. Also, we mods will in all likelihood head to our respective forums to inform everyone once we have concrete info.
 

Lee Tasey

Re: Learn Writing with Uncle Jim

Dear James,

I just finished the ninth draft of a novel. A big question I have is, How do you know when you're finished? The same is true for short stories. I'm now rewriting a short story collection; every story has been written about twelve times. Are you finished when you can't possibly do anything more to a story? How does it work for you?

Regards,

Lee
 

matrix83

Question

I have a quick question for Uncle Jim. Is there any sort of guideline regarding when to use background description, and when you do, how much? For example, in one scene my character is alone in his apartment waiting for someone.... How much detail should I offer regarding the apartment? Should I give a description of each room, the furniture, the paintings on the wall, etc. The apartment serves no major significance other than as the setting for the scene....thanks.
 

detante

Re: Question

Is there any sort of guideline regarding when to use background description, and when you do, how much?

I'm not Uncle Jim, but I think the amount of background information depends on the type of story you are writing.

If you are writing a milieu story (such as a glamorous Hollywood pot boiler or a high fantasy), you will want to provide a richly detailed background.

If you are writing a character piece, then use the background to reveal character. (Does the character have a "Hang in there baby!" kitty poster, an HR Giger print, or a Van Gogh forgery hanging on the wall?)

If you are focus is an event, then describe the background necessary for the action to take place.

Let your story and audience's expectations be your guide.
 

maestrowork

Re: I agree

My own rule of thumb: Do the details enhance the story, or do they distract the readers from it?

Also, are the details necessary? It's always good to paint a vivid picture for the readers, but sometimes it's not necessary if they don't add anything to the story or characterization. If it's a normal log cabin with a fireplace and a rug and this and that, then spare me the details -- least of all where the fireplace is or the physical measurements, etc. Yawn. I know what a log cabin looks like. But if the throw rug is a dead polar bear, or something is really unusual about the place (a water faucet that won't stop dripping... which has something to do with the story), then pick those details and describe them.

Always ask the question: Why do the readers care?
 

matrix83

Re: Learn Writing with Uncle Jim

thanks.....your comments are very helpful....
 

macalicious731

Re: Question

Matrix, a person's apartment can tell a lot about someone's character. Is it in the upper east side, decorated with white couches and curtains, or a downtown dump littered with week old pizza boxes?

The painting might be important - is it a van Gogh or a child's fingerpainting project? The number of rooms might be important, if your character is a single mother in a one bedroom apartment or a single mother in a three bedroom suite with a dining room, kitchen and living room.
 

sc211

Re: Question

One good way to answer your question is to think of a novel with a scene you remember clearly and then go check and see how many of the details were written out and how much came from you.

It wasn't until reading an interview with Orson Scott Card in which he said how poor he is at description that I realized he was right. Take Chapter 2 of Ender's Game - it's a harrowing scene between two brothers and a sister in their home.

But when you read it, all the description is one saying, "come on upstairs," and then mentioning the flat, a bed, a drawer, a doorway, and the sound of a toilet. That's it, except for a mask one of them puts on, like a prop on a bare stage.

Of course, if it's a room that's to be in the whole novel, or you want to define the character better, as said above, then do that - I love those kinds of details. Like the Bruce Lee posters on Travolta's wall in "Saturday Night Fever." Showing how he wants to be seen.

But Card showed me how all you really need, in Al Pacino's words, is "a plank and a passion."
 

absolutewrite

Re: Public Service Announcement

Be not afraid... I promise that I won't take down this board until the new one is fully functional and tested to see that all archives have survived the move.

We'll be fine. If I can't move the archives properly, I won't make the switch.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Learn Writing with Uncle Jim

Are you finished when you can't possibly do anything more to a story?

There, my friend, is where the art comes in. How does a cook know the soup is ready to serve? There's always something else you can do -- the question is whether there's something else you ought to do.

I can't give a real answer, not having read your story, but ... if it isn't in publishable range after nine to twelve drafts, it probably won't get there.

What kind of changes are you making each time around?

Is there any sort of guideline regarding when to use background description, and when you do, how much?

This is the guideline: The appropriate level of detail is a function of pace.

That is: No one can count the rivets on a moving train. If you want to show that the train isn't moving, start counting rivets.
 

detante

Re: Question

Good example, SC. Card's interview reminded me of "Our Town". Another one that helped me is from Stephen King's On Writing.

"Look--here's a table covered with a red cloth. On it is a cage the size of a small fish aquarium. In the cage is a white rabbit with a pink nose and pink-rimmed eyes. In its front paws is a carrot-stub upon which it is contentedly munching. On its back, clearly marked in blue ink, is a numeral 8.

Do we see the same thing? We'd have to get together and compare notes to make absolutely sure, but I think we do. There will be necessary variations, of course: some receivers [readers] will see a cloth which is turkey red, some will see one that's scarlet, while others may see still other shades. (To color blind receivers, the red tablecloth is the dark gray of cigar ashes.) Some may see scalloped edges, some may see straight ones. Decorative souls may add a little lace, and welcome--my tablecloth is your tablecloth, knock yourself out.

Likewise, the matter of the cage leaves quite a lot of room for individual interpretation. For one thing, it is described in terms of rough comparison, which is useful only if you and I see the world and measure the things in it with similar eyes. It's easy to become careless when making rough comparisons, but the alternative is a prissy attention to detail that takes all the fun out of writing. What am I going to say, "on the table is a cage three feet, six inches in length, two feet in width, and fourteen inches high"? That's not prose, that's an instruction manual. The paragraph also doesn't tell us what sort of material the cage is made of--wire mesh? steel rods? glass?--but does it really matter? We all understand the cage is a see-through medium; beyond that, we don't care. The most interesting thing here isn't even the carrot-munching rabbit in the cage, but the number on its back. Not a six, not a four, not nineteen-point-five. It's an eight. This is what we're looking at, and we all see it."
 

maestrowork

Re: Question

In my novel, The Pacific Between, I spent exactly one paragraph describing an apartment. Nothing more, nothing less. Most one-bedroom apartment look alike, so what was the purpose of the descriptions?

- To put the readers right there. It's okay to say "He steps into her apartment" but if you can give the readers some sense of space and background, it helps them fill in the blanks.

- Characterization. That's the key thing. And not only about the person who lives in that apartment (the posters on the wall, the knick-knacks, the music playing in the background, the clutter, etc.) but also the observer: What he noticed and his thoughts on them.

- Pace. The protagonist is waiting for the girl. So instead of just saying "he waited," I slip into the one-paragraph description, instead of at the very moment when he steps into the apartment. That's the equivalent of a dramatic pause. Then the girl comes out of her room, and the story continues... One paragraph is just about the right time. Now if the girl went into a coma, I might have to slow down the pace some more.

:lol
 

matrix83

Re: fonts

At risk of seeming like a "board hog," I have another question I'd like to put out here. To the published novelists present, How have some of your story ideas originated? It would be helpful if some of you could perhaps lead us through this process: how the initial impulse for a story arose and how it was developed into a novel.

I have never introduced myself here. I live in New York and am a professional print journalist. I have had one short story published. Greetings all!
 

James D Macdonald

Story ideas

Lessee -- origins of novels vary. I've used dreams and news stories, mostly. After that it's been playing "what if?" and "if this goes on" and "that's neat" and "who gets hurt?"

Take interesting characters, put them in interesting places, and see what they do.

One specific story idea started with a photo of Soviet troops in full chemical warfare rig. The question came to my mind: How would a 19th century farmer describe those men?

Another one was, suppose Harold Godwinson hadn't gone north to Stamford Bridge, but instead had stayed in the south and defeated William the Bastard? And, incidentally, suppose dragons, ogres, mermaids, unicorns, and giants were all literally real?

After that, it's watching the characters interact.

Usually, I don't start with the beginning. I start with an ending, see what characters are there, then back off, put those characters into a situation and see if they can get to the ending I was thinking of.
 

Risseybug

Re: Question

I'm with Jim. It varies. My first book was pretty much built around the main character. She is the focus of the book. That was how I wanted it - to build a character, then build an adventure for her.

My current WIP was built from a more abstract idea of what I wanted to have happen. The "What if this happened" shool of thought. The main character came into focus later. She's got three friends, none of which I knew anything about until I started to write.
It works differently for different writers, and sometime for the same writer for different works.
 

maestrowork

Re: Question

For my first book, The Pacific Between, I started with some characters, a premise, and an ending. Then I go from there.
 
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