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Starting a story
Hi Uncle Jim,
What are the pitfalls of starting a story, book, novel, etc. with dialog? No narrative to start with.
Ex:
"I tell you Germaine," Hermione said, "It wasn't like that. I cast the spell like the book told me and. . . it just. . . sort of. . . okay I messed up."
"Let's see if we can try this again." Germain said, "After the spell wears off. It's a little difficult to do anything when you're a snail."
It took sometime before the spell wore off. When it did, Germain opened the book to page one and started with the first lesson: Proper words to use while casting a spell.
Hi Uncle Jim,
What are the pitfalls of starting a story, book, novel, etc. with dialog? No narrative to start with.
Ex:
"I tell you Germaine," Hermione said, "It wasn't like that. I cast the spell like the book told me and. . . it just. . . sort of. . . okay I messed up."
"Let's see if we can try this again." Germain said, "After the spell wears off. It's a little difficult to do anything when you're a snail."
It took sometime before the spell wore off. When it did, Germain opened the book to page one and started with the first lesson: Proper words to use while casting a spell.
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Pitfalls? Same as in any other story: Confusing the readers.
(Perhaps you're asking the wrong person: we wrote and sold a short story that was entirely in dialog. When I say "entirely," I mean it: there weren't even any dialog tags.)
(Perhaps you're asking the wrong person: we wrote and sold a short story that was entirely in dialog. When I say "entirely," I mean it: there weren't even any dialog tags.)
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Read both and they both made me smile! Thanks! 
Euclid, if you follow UJ's link, you can use Amazon's "look inside" feature to read the story. It's the first one in the book.
Which makes me wonder: Uncle Jim, how do you feel about Amazon's "look inside" feature? I figured that since you provided the link, it was all right for me to read your story there. But say the anthology was still being sold by Amazon, how would you feel about having your story out there for everyone to read while you receive no royalties from it?
I've heard arguments both ways on that feature and I was just curious how you personally felt about it, if you don't mind.
Thanks!
Euclid, if you follow UJ's link, you can use Amazon's "look inside" feature to read the story. It's the first one in the book.
Which makes me wonder: Uncle Jim, how do you feel about Amazon's "look inside" feature? I figured that since you provided the link, it was all right for me to read your story there. But say the anthology was still being sold by Amazon, how would you feel about having your story out there for everyone to read while you receive no royalties from it?
I've heard arguments both ways on that feature and I was just curious how you personally felt about it, if you don't mind.
Thanks!
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The biggest risk to a writer isn't piracy. It's obscurity.
Given that the number one reason anyone buys a book is because they've read and enjoyed another work by that same author, I don't mind people reading my stories where ever they find them.
Note that I've posted a bunch on my own webpage.
Given that the number one reason anyone buys a book is because they've read and enjoyed another work by that same author, I don't mind people reading my stories where ever they find them.
Note that I've posted a bunch on my own webpage.
Thanks, Uncle Jim! That's exactly what I was curious to know.
BTW, I'm plodding through Henning Nelms' book, trying to assimilate it. I recognize a large number of your guiding priciples in there. It's neat to see how it all comes together and makes so much sense. I just wish I was more interested in magic, though!
BTW, I'm plodding through Henning Nelms' book, trying to assimilate it. I recognize a large number of your guiding priciples in there. It's neat to see how it all comes together and makes so much sense. I just wish I was more interested in magic, though!
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What could be more magical than thought transference to create a world in a reader's mind?
Touchée!
Maybe that's exactly the new insight I needed to get the most out of the rest of the book. Thanks, Uncle Jim!
Long post; Or, What I Did When I Finally Made It Through...
Uncle Jim,
Thank you for taking all this time over the last few years to keep up this thread. And thank you for answering all these questions. I have to admit though, that after pouring over the 300+ pages of this thread, there’s a lot of overlap. That’s the nature of the beast, I know.
[Just so you know, I started writing this at page 300. I had to get something down to join the conversation.]
But here’s one for future reference of people asking questions here.
Anonymous Questioner: “Uncle Jim, I know your mantra is ‘BIC (Butt in Chair), bull through to the end, and finish the book,’ but [here’s why I’m different], and [here’s how my book is different], what should I do because [I’m a unique snowflake]?”
Uncle Jim’s standard answer: “What works for you is right. And BIC, bull through to the end, and finish the book.”
Next Post: “Uncle Jim, I know your mantra… but…”
Oh, and please thank Doyle for condensing and editing the thread into a book on writing. I can’t wait to read the additions she makes. And if I may, where are you two at on the project?
Note: As a pure geek for old pulp magazines and having utterly odd tastes in movies, I love anything with Nazis or dinosaurs. Preferably both…
At first I didn’t quite understand the level of adulation going on in this thread, but you had me at, “You must always strike the right balance between dinosaurs and sodomy.”
For a decent read filled with mixed metaphors and bizarre phrases, people should check out Pet Peeve, by Piers Anthony.
Uncle Jim,
Thank you for taking all this time over the last few years to keep up this thread. And thank you for answering all these questions. I have to admit though, that after pouring over the 300+ pages of this thread, there’s a lot of overlap. That’s the nature of the beast, I know.
[Just so you know, I started writing this at page 300. I had to get something down to join the conversation.]
But here’s one for future reference of people asking questions here.
Anonymous Questioner: “Uncle Jim, I know your mantra is ‘BIC (Butt in Chair), bull through to the end, and finish the book,’ but [here’s why I’m different], and [here’s how my book is different], what should I do because [I’m a unique snowflake]?”
Uncle Jim’s standard answer: “What works for you is right. And BIC, bull through to the end, and finish the book.”
Next Post: “Uncle Jim, I know your mantra… but…”
Oh, and please thank Doyle for condensing and editing the thread into a book on writing. I can’t wait to read the additions she makes. And if I may, where are you two at on the project?
Note: As a pure geek for old pulp magazines and having utterly odd tastes in movies, I love anything with Nazis or dinosaurs. Preferably both…
At first I didn’t quite understand the level of adulation going on in this thread, but you had me at, “You must always strike the right balance between dinosaurs and sodomy.”
For a decent read filled with mixed metaphors and bizarre phrases, people should check out Pet Peeve, by Piers Anthony.
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Exposition
Hi Uncle Jim,
I read the explanation for what an exposition is, but how does that translate, in simpler terms, in what is seen in a book?
==========
EXPOSITION:
Details, usually imparted in summary form, that give the readers the background information they need to understand the story.
Exposition often appears at the beginning of a story, but it can be interspersed throughout the piece, between or within episodes that more actively carry the plot. In some stories, of course, a long period of exposition is not particularly crucial.
Hi Uncle Jim,
I read the explanation for what an exposition is, but how does that translate, in simpler terms, in what is seen in a book?
==========
EXPOSITION:
Details, usually imparted in summary form, that give the readers the background information they need to understand the story.
Exposition often appears at the beginning of a story, but it can be interspersed throughout the piece, between or within episodes that more actively carry the plot. In some stories, of course, a long period of exposition is not particularly crucial.
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Take a paperback copy of your favorite novel (or, any novel picked at random from the Three Books for a Buck bin at your local bookstore).
Take a highlighter.
Go through and highlight everything that fits that definition of exposition.
There is your answer.
Take a highlighter.
Go through and highlight everything that fits that definition of exposition.
There is your answer.
I'm taking a lot of liberty:
"Almost there," I said to myself, peering up at the misty summit some thirty yards ahead. The trek up this mountain had been a strange one that I would likely remember forever. Even now, the steps I took led me through thoughts and opinions in many voices, their sounds distant echoes in time. For this mountain, in a way, was time itself.
I crested the trail, surveying the misty sky and cliffs from the highest point in the area. I chuckled. "I'm not sure whether it's the journey or the end that's the reward this time," I said to myself, as I often did when alone. But I wasn't alone.
Instinctively, I took a step back. Sitting casually on a rock, a book in his hands, was a middle-aged man. He had a healthy beard and wore a black leather jacket, giving an edge to his otherwise genial appearance. His dark eyes scanned the book he held with one hand, then stopped. He gazed up at me.
"So, you made it at last?"
"I've made it to the top," I said, noting that his was a question, not a statement.
"How was the journey?" he asked as his eyes rested upon the page again.
I searched for an adequate word, but only came up with, "incredible."
He considered that for a moment as he took in the view from the mountain top with obvious familiarity. "What are you going to do now?"
"Well," I said, "if I'm correct, the past is back that way--" I indicated the trail behind me, "--so the future must be the other side."
"Do you think it's all downhill from here?" he asked, meeting my eyes again.
"I think there's another fine looking mountain ahead."
He smiled, and nodded. "Off you go, then."
I returned his nod, and set off. As I passed him, I stopped. "Uncle Jim," I said heavily.
He looked up again, "Yes?"
"Thanks."
He smiled again, and I set off down the other side of the mountain.
"Almost there," I said to myself, peering up at the misty summit some thirty yards ahead. The trek up this mountain had been a strange one that I would likely remember forever. Even now, the steps I took led me through thoughts and opinions in many voices, their sounds distant echoes in time. For this mountain, in a way, was time itself.
I crested the trail, surveying the misty sky and cliffs from the highest point in the area. I chuckled. "I'm not sure whether it's the journey or the end that's the reward this time," I said to myself, as I often did when alone. But I wasn't alone.
Instinctively, I took a step back. Sitting casually on a rock, a book in his hands, was a middle-aged man. He had a healthy beard and wore a black leather jacket, giving an edge to his otherwise genial appearance. His dark eyes scanned the book he held with one hand, then stopped. He gazed up at me.
"So, you made it at last?"
"I've made it to the top," I said, noting that his was a question, not a statement.
"How was the journey?" he asked as his eyes rested upon the page again.
I searched for an adequate word, but only came up with, "incredible."
He considered that for a moment as he took in the view from the mountain top with obvious familiarity. "What are you going to do now?"
"Well," I said, "if I'm correct, the past is back that way--" I indicated the trail behind me, "--so the future must be the other side."
"Do you think it's all downhill from here?" he asked, meeting my eyes again.
"I think there's another fine looking mountain ahead."
He smiled, and nodded. "Off you go, then."
I returned his nod, and set off. As I passed him, I stopped. "Uncle Jim," I said heavily.
He looked up again, "Yes?"
"Thanks."
He smiled again, and I set off down the other side of the mountain.
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The Memo
I am running a writing experiment. For the last ten book I read, I have been plotting the books by page number.
The experiment went like this. I took three books by three authors. One author had four book. I read the first two books by each author and recorded the pages by action and important plot points. With the third book, I read only the pages with plot twists and points, based on the pages from their first book.
With all three, I could predict the pages, within a couple, that would have important action. The one author who had four books, the last book was a much shorter read, the ratios held true. Adjusting for the size difference, I could predict the action pages within one or two pages.
Did I miss a memo or something? Am I supposed to be using a set plot line adjusted to a formula so rigid that I end up being able to predict what happens where? Or is this some subconscious brain train that all good writers naturally have?
I am running a writing experiment. For the last ten book I read, I have been plotting the books by page number.
The experiment went like this. I took three books by three authors. One author had four book. I read the first two books by each author and recorded the pages by action and important plot points. With the third book, I read only the pages with plot twists and points, based on the pages from their first book.
With all three, I could predict the pages, within a couple, that would have important action. The one author who had four books, the last book was a much shorter read, the ratios held true. Adjusting for the size difference, I could predict the action pages within one or two pages.
Did I miss a memo or something? Am I supposed to be using a set plot line adjusted to a formula so rigid that I end up being able to predict what happens where? Or is this some subconscious brain train that all good writers naturally have?
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Allen, if it's not too much trouble, could you try that with one of my books?
(I wonder... if something's happening on every page will the experiment give a false positive?)
(I wonder... if something's happening on every page will the experiment give a false positive?)
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That sounds similar to Blake Snyder's Beat Sheet (aka BS2) for screenplay plot point structure. You might research it or his book Save the Cat! for details, but this is the basic structure:
Opening Image
Point Stated (at 5% into the movie)
Set-Up (takes up the first 9% of movie)
Catalyst (at 11% mark)
Debate (between the 11% and 23% portion)
Break into Two (at 23%)
B-Story (at 27%)
- usually the romantic story or subplot
Fun and Games (from 27%-50%)
- the clips for movie trailers tend to come from this section
Midpoint (50%)
- there's usually a party about 60 minutes into a movie
Bad Guys Close In (50%-70%)
All Is Lost (70%)
- false defeat, whiff of death
Dark Night of the Soul (70%-75%)
Break into Three (75%)
Finale (75%-100%)
Final Image (100%)
Last summer, I applied the BS2 to about 75 movies. The majority of those movies (which included movies like The Godfather 1 + 2, Chinatown, Psycho, L.A. Confidential, Strangers on a Train, etc.) followed this structure.
I did the same for the 1st season of The Sopranos. Ditto for a DC comic book event called Crisis on Infinite Earths. Was planning to apply it to novels, but decided I was too lazy to be that ambitious.
Opening Image
Point Stated (at 5% into the movie)
Set-Up (takes up the first 9% of movie)
Catalyst (at 11% mark)
Debate (between the 11% and 23% portion)
Break into Two (at 23%)
B-Story (at 27%)
- usually the romantic story or subplot
Fun and Games (from 27%-50%)
- the clips for movie trailers tend to come from this section
Midpoint (50%)
- there's usually a party about 60 minutes into a movie
Bad Guys Close In (50%-70%)
All Is Lost (70%)
- false defeat, whiff of death
Dark Night of the Soul (70%-75%)
Break into Three (75%)
Finale (75%-100%)
Final Image (100%)
Last summer, I applied the BS2 to about 75 movies. The majority of those movies (which included movies like The Godfather 1 + 2, Chinatown, Psycho, L.A. Confidential, Strangers on a Train, etc.) followed this structure.
I did the same for the 1st season of The Sopranos. Ditto for a DC comic book event called Crisis on Infinite Earths. Was planning to apply it to novels, but decided I was too lazy to be that ambitious.
I’m more familiar with a variant of Syd Field’s plot breakdown, but here goes for novels.
This assumes an 80k word ms., and 250 ms. words to the published book page…
Act I: 1–27
Hook: 13
Inciting Incident: 27
Act II: 27–80
Call to Action: 40–53
Plot Point: 53–80
Act III: 80–160
Midpoint: 133–160
Act IV: 160–240
Plot Point: 213–240
Act V: 240–320
Climax: 267–320
This assumes a 100k word ms., and 250 ms. words per published page…
Act I: 1–33
Hook: 17
Inciting Incident: 33
Act II: 33–100
Call to Action: 50–67
Plot Point: 67–100
Act III: 100–200
Midpoint: 167–200
Act IV: 200–300
Plot Point: 267–300
Act V: 300–400
Climax: 333–400
I would be interested to know what breakdown you used Allen.
(Posting this and checking a few books by it...)
This assumes an 80k word ms., and 250 ms. words to the published book page…
Act I: 1–27
Hook: 13
Inciting Incident: 27
Act II: 27–80
Call to Action: 40–53
Plot Point: 53–80
Act III: 80–160
Midpoint: 133–160
Act IV: 160–240
Plot Point: 213–240
Act V: 240–320
Climax: 267–320
This assumes a 100k word ms., and 250 ms. words per published page…
Act I: 1–33
Hook: 17
Inciting Incident: 33
Act II: 33–100
Call to Action: 50–67
Plot Point: 67–100
Act III: 100–200
Midpoint: 167–200
Act IV: 200–300
Plot Point: 267–300
Act V: 300–400
Climax: 333–400
I would be interested to know what breakdown you used Allen.
(Posting this and checking a few books by it...)
Could you provide definitions for your bold points and possibly examples?
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