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Thread: Books to Believe In / Thornton Publishing

  1. #1
    Ed Williams 3
    Guest

    Books to Believe In / Thornton Publishing

    That should get this thread started....

  2. #2
    CaoPaux
    Guest

    Re: ProfitablePublishing.net may be the son of PA!


  3. #3
    Kate St Amour
    Guest

    Re: ProfitablePublishing.net may be the son of PA!

    Hey now; that looks suspiciously like a blog, unlike--umm-- the Bewares Board. Thank you CaoPaux.

  4. #4
    Whachawant
    Guest

    Re: ProfitablePublishing.net may be the son of PA!

    Thanks Ed... You beat me to it!

    Cheers!

  5. #5
    aka eraser
    Guest

    Profitable Publishing

    OK. The formatting is in limbo and I think most links have joined it. I've deleted all the non-relevant posts (I hope).

    ----------------------------

    James D Macdonald
    I live here
    Posts: 2586
    (12/12/04 2:01 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del

    Re: Linking it all back to PublishAmerica... I've been looking at the PublishAmerica thread How Did You Discover PA?

    A depressing number of folks just Googled on "Book Publisher," came up with PA as the top hit, didn't bother to do any other research, submitted there first, and the rest is history.

    But others ... I've looked at some of their prior publishing credits, and I found....

    Profitable Publishing

    All I can say is "Oh."

    Oh, my.

    Oh. My. Ghod.

    Compared to those guys, PA probably does seem like a good deal. Compared to those guys, PA probably is.

    I still wish that those authors had started their publisher search at the top rather than at the bottom of the heap. Just because you published with a bottom-feeder doesn't mean that you've written a bottom-feeding book.

    I weep for the humanity.

    Some Publishing Definitions


    Whachawant
    One of the
    locals
    Posts: 151
    (12/12/04 5:26 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Linking it all back to PublishAmerica... That's a terrible site. Looks like it was designed by HB(check out his site. It's just as cheesy)... he classify's himself as an artist as well and supposedly does web sites. Got news for you HB... I would smoke you....

    HB has NEVER been right. About anything.

    ---I agree FM---

    He acts quite well as a counselor for P.A. Anyone with a problem, he is the first to step in and try to calm the storm.

    underthecity
    New friend
    Posts: 48
    (12/12/04 5:41 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Time for a chuckle. Thanks James for giving us the link to Profitable Publishing. I checked it out and was very surprised that the first page looked familiar.

    underthecity

    Edited by: underthecity at: 12/14/04 12:45 pm


    XThe NavigatorX
    One of the
    locals
    Posts: 274
    (12/13/04 3:18 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Linking it all back to PublishAmerica... At least that other website attempts to sell its books on the front page of their site. PA's site is a giant commercial for themselves. Plus, they're the only (claiming to be) non-vanity publisher I know of that addresses potential authors in its tagline.



    James D Macdonald
    I live here
    Posts: 2589
    (12/13/04 11:18 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Hmmmmm.... The Profitable Publishing site has changed between yesterday and today. All I can say is that the change is one for the better.

    Here's the Google cache of the old version.

    Some Publishing Definitions

    Edited by: James D Macdonald at: 12/13/04 11:33 am
    HapiSofi
    Board fanatic
    Posts: 409
    (12/13/04 11:33 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Hmmmmm.... Now there's an idea, Jim; you should periodically drop hints for publishers who want to look more legitimate. You've gotten these guys to focus their site on selling their books, not sucking in more authors. Next, you could idly mention how very reassuring it is to see that a publisher puts out a real catalogue. And so forth and so on ...

    maestrowork
    Resident Bug Chef
    Posts: 5054
    (12/13/04 11:46 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    ezSupporter
    &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: At One Time HB Was Right Ah, that's cruel, James. My eyes. My eyes.


    XThe NavigatorX
    One of the
    locals
    Posts: 275
    (12/13/04 2:24 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Hmmmmm....

    Quote:The Profitable Publishing site has changed between yesterday and today. All I can say is that the change is one for the better.

    Wow. That's crazy. :rollin I wonder if the owner is a regular here.


    AngelOnBoard
    New friend
    Posts: 1
    (12/13/04 3:40 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Profitable Publishing Allow me to introduce myself. I am EJ Thornton and I am the owner of Profitable Publishing.

    You have been criticizing my company on your blogs and when I traced the source of that, it seems you were mad at another publishing, not mine. You may have had contact with that other publishing company, but as far as I know, you've never done business with me, bought one of my books, interviewed me or any of my authors. You did a very brief scan of my website, made your determination and decided to criticize. I find this quite interesting.

    Since you don't know who I am, I will tell you. I am the author of Angel On Board (www.AngelOnBoard.com) and the owner of Thornton Publishing, Inc. We publish 100+ books, four of which are my own. I started my company several years ago because I was a successful self-published author and many of my author acquaintances wanted to know what I did to get my book out there and encouraged me to create my own business and publish their books too. When I started I had 6 titles to my credit and they are all also doing quite well. If you want to see what my authors say about me, go to www.ProfitablePublishing.net/Testimonials.php

    I did change the website since you started your campaign and I'll tell you why - because I could! My catalog was always listed on my main page, you just had to actually scroll down to see it. But this has afforded me the opportunity to get all my books out in front of hundreds of more people and I think they speak for themselves and I expect sales of these great books from this. Thank you! The website that will always contain my catalog and sub-catalogs is www.BooksToBelieveIn.com
    Check it out, it changes frequently as I add titles.

    I created the publishing company I wished I could have found. I do business differently than most others. It may work for you, it may not, but for those who like to see potential instead of negativity, it works well.

    I only found this blog, because I was mentioned in it. I am not a regular here, but I will be monitoring it as long as it is appropriate.

    I don't like to be backstabbed, so I'm letting you know - I'm right here. Talk to me, ask me questions - I'm happy to respond. I want you to go to the www.ProfitablePublishing.net website's archived page. I'm proud of my website and what I do to make this world a better place one book at a time!

    EJ

    Whachawant
    One of the
    locals
    Posts: 152
    (12/13/04 3:42 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post The poor mans copyright. Did that concept ever work? ....and is now no longer recognized..
    Or was it somebody's silly idea?

    Oh and EJ,...you were quick to clean up your site. It looks better.

    Edited by: Whachawant at: 12/13/04 3:58 pm
    RealityChuck
    Board regular
    Posts: 84
    (12/13/04 3:59 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Linking it all back to PublishAmerica... Whatchawant: Never worked. Under the previous copyright law, you had to register your copyright in order to enforce it. You could have brought the letter in and produced it as exhibit A, and the judge would have asked, "Did you register the copyright?" If the answer was no, you'd have no case; if it was yes, the judge wouldn't care what you did with the manuscript.

    AngelonBoard: Your current site make it looks like your business is to sell books to the public. That's a good thing.

    The earlier one seemed to indicate your business was to sell publishing services to authors. The usual sign of a rip-off is that the promotional material is designed to get authors to buy their services and not to sell books to the public*. By making the change, you are divorcing yourself from the sleezy operators, so that's a good thing.

    *They'll mention a book or two, but the big tip-off is a prominent request for manuscripts from authors. It's sort of like: Get published! Get published! Get Published! Oh, yeah, here are some books.

    CaoPaux
    One of the
    locals
    Posts: 174
    (12/13/04 4:08 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: The poor mans copyright. IIRC, it had some validity before they revamped the copyright law back in 1973 (?). Old habits die hard, eh?

    ETA: Make that the 1910's, but it's a useless relic, regardless.

    CAO
    -------
    "I've never known any trouble that an hour's reading didn't assuage."
    -- Charles DeSecondat
    Edited by: CaoPaux at: 12/13/04 6:43 pm
    AngelOnBoard
    New friend
    Posts: 2
    (12/13/04 4:37 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Poor Man's Copyright Do you want a publisher's opinion on the poor man's copyright?

    First of all, your book is protected by intellectual property laws as soon as it is in a 'tangible medium of expression.' So, print it, or save it on a disk - date it and take care of it.

    But the poor man's copyright, where you send the copy to yourself and you don't open it until there is a legal challenge - there's a much better way!

    If you're going to pay for the postage already - send it to your lawyer. He's got to date stamp when he received it and he'll put it in your file. Then when there's a challenge, guess who can provide the date evidence required! If you don't want to send it to your lawyer, send it to your accountant or your minister. They'll do the same thing and as an uninterested third party, they'll have to testify in court on your behalf! And, just for the record, if you plan on making a lot of money on your book, you'll probably need both a lawyer and an accountant, so the above is good practice anyway!

    But send it on in to the Library of Congress and get your LCCN, because if you don't, the major bookstores won't take you seriously for shelf space and the major library services don't get their info from Bowker, they get their info from the the Libarary of Congress. So, if you want to sell to libraries, it is a must anyway.

    Sorry, I didn't read the back-blog's on this, so I don't know what was said, but if you want a publisher's experience on whether or not you should get an LCCN - the answer is yes.

    EJ

    Kate St Amour
    New friend
    Posts: 17
    (12/13/04 4:48 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Profitable Publishing Hello EJ.

    <quote>You have been criticizing my company on your blogs and when I traced the source of that, it seems you were mad at another publishing, not mine. </quote>

    Let me clarify for you: This site is about education and communication. This message board is a place for writers and writer advocates. No one is necessarily "mad" at any company, but we do utilize this space to communicate regarding suspicious business practices.
    Now, I'm not altogether sure exactly who the "you" is in your post, but I am a PA author currently disputing several issues with my publisher. If you are curious about my stance, please read Publisher's Weekly. I'm quoted.

    <quote>You may have had contact with that other publishing company, but as far as I know, you've never done business with me, bought one of my books, interviewed me or any of my authors. You did a very brief scan of my website, made your determination and decided to criticize. I find this quite interesting. </quote>

    This is true. However, there were several facets to your site that were "red flags" to many of the advocates here. Your site looks nicer today, btw, and is much improved from yesterday. I encourage you to do more than monitor this board, but read through this and some of the other sections. There is a lot of great information here that benefits authors, publishers, editors, and agents. I haven't been around here long, but what I have found is a great sense of community, and a lot of career enhancing information.

    ~Kate



    AngelOnBoard
    New friend
    Posts: 3
    (12/13/04 4:52 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post If they'd've just looked... My business is to sell publishing contracts to authors - because I know how to make it work for them, because I did it first myself. I know there are alot of opportunistic firms out there that do that too, you're just going to have to judge for yourself. But I put my books on B&N, Amazon.com, www.BooksToBelieveIn.com and I put them out on 6 other places in cyber space and some of my guys have their owns sites. I wish someone would have at least scrolled down to the bottom of the first page to see all the books that I list ALL THE TIME! There are legitimate publishers out there - I call myself a partner-publisher, because most first time authors don't know how to market the books - and I show them. That's why they keep coming back. I appreciate this forum to explain my business, but truly, if this first guy had even scrolled down half a page, he'd have seen that I was selling my books not only to the public, but to book clubs, bookstores and libraries. I succeed when they succeed! That is how I designed my business - because I believe in the win/win!

    EJ author of Angel On Board (www.AngelOnBoard.com)
    Always keeping the author's point of view in mind!

    vstrauss
    Moderator
    Posts: 614
    (12/13/04 5:17 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Poor Man's Copyright >>If you're going to pay for the postage already - send it to your lawyer. He's got to date stamp when he received it and he'll put it in your file. Then when there's a challenge, guess who can provide the date evidence required!<<

    They won't be able to provide anything unless the copyright has actually been registered--which is a prerequisite, in the USA, for filing an infringement suit. Sending your ms. to your lawyer or any other official person is no more useful than poor man's copyright in legal terms. It is NOT a substitute for registration.

    As for providing evidence of completion, ownership, etc, authors can do this themselves by keeping computer records, drafts, and so on. A third party isn't necessary.

    Save the postage.

    - Victoria


    Website: www.victoriastrauss.com
    Writer Beware: www.writerbeware.com

    maestrowork
    Resident Bug Chef
    Posts: 5061
    (12/13/04 5:28 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    ezSupporter
    &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Copyright Just register it with the copyright office. It costs only $30. Is it really that much to protect your own asset?



    Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
    Zazopolis
    Irate over the
    lack of agitated
    doofuses
    Posts: 92
    (12/13/04 5:30 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Linking it all back to PublishAmerica... That's a decent start to a night at the bar.

    Give yourself a swirly at Bob's Web Toilet
    James D Macdonald
    I live here
    Posts: 2596
    (12/13/04 5:57 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: If they'd've just looked... A couple of things:

    First, on Poor Man's Copyright, this is what John Savage (a lawyer who practices publishing law) says over at The Rumormill:

    Ask Ann -- How to Spot the Scam Sharks in the Writing Waters

    Message 74078 was left by John Savage on 2004-07-11 11:07:19. Feedback: 0/0

    Subscribers to Speculations already know my opinion of the "poor man's copyright"; I covered it in "Caveat Scrivener" in Issue 47.

    Bottom line: it's been over 95 years since the "poor man's copyright" had even a shred of validity. Any publisher who is promoting it as anything other than a waste of time and money is either so ignorant that I wouldn't do publishing business with it, or has an agenda that would keep me from doing business with it.

    Second, in re "Profitable Publishing."

    The name itself makes me suspicious. The phrase "My business is to sell publishing contracts to authors" is a red flag. A publisher's business is to sell copies of books to the general public. A publisher pays authors for the right to do so.

    Please remember Yog's Law: Money flows toward the author.

    Co-publishing, joint-venture publishing, subsidy publishing, vanity publishing -- they're all the same thing. They fall somewhere in that vast grey area between a Bad Idea and an Outright Scam.

    Some Publishing Definitions

    CaoPaux
    One of the
    locals
    Posts: 175
    (12/13/04 6:50 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: If they'd've just looked... Your business is to sell services to authors? And here I thought a publisher's business was to sell books to readers.

    Here's a Profitable Publishing book: www.bookstobelievein.com/...eDevil.pdf

    So, just how do you consider yourself better than PA?

    CAO
    -------


    AngelOnBoard
    New friend
    Posts: 4
    (12/13/04 7:35 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Publishers need author contracts I sell mine because I let the author keep their rights.

    For those who think it is a bad idea - stay away, this business isn't for you. I don't have to prove you wrong. I call myself Profitable Publishing, because that is what it is - for everyone. Again, I believe in the win/win.

    If you want to go another way - go and God Bless!

    If you think there might be something to Profitable Publishing - check it out.

    I sell thousands of books every year. But I teach my authors how to sell even more than that. Believe you, me, that is worth the price of admission!

    www.ProfitablePublishing.net

    EJ

    CaoPaux
    One of the
    locals
    Posts: 176
    (12/13/04 7:48 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Publishers need author contracts

    Quote:Believe you, me, that is worth the price of admission!


    If you produced a quality product, perhaps.

    So, what’s the verdict, folks…"gormless, but harmless" or "predatory"?

    CAO
    -------
    "I've never known any trouble that an hour's reading didn't assuage."
    -- Charles DeSecondat
    AngelOnBoard
    New friend
    Posts: 5
    (12/13/04 7:55 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Well I hope you'll dig deeper next time before you jump to a conclusion. It seems that you have a problem with people who help people self-publish (i.e. charge a publishing fee). If that's true, then you have a bias against the people who believe in their projects enough to self-publish. There weren't any red flags on my site, there were pre-conceived opinions of a way to do business. That is the problem I had with this whole discussion forum. I got lumped into some discussion about a publisher that I'd not heard of before or cared to find out more about.

    The way I do books makes sense in this day and age.

    Publishing books is 100% venture capital business - no guarantees - someone has to put up that money - either the author or the publisher or an investor. If you believe in yourself enough to pay to have your book published, then good for you! There should be no stigma attached to it. The people who publish through me are driven and want to maintain control of their project. I give them that opportunity. Their books are making the world a better place. My books are making the world a better place. They are quality projects and contain beautiful messages. Check out www.bookstobelievein.com!

    Allow people to do their own thing - and keep your judgements, especially the uninformed ones, to yourself!

    Don't spend money anywhere where you haven't done the research to make sure it is a good deal, that advice is in publishing, buying cars and even at the grocery store!

    EJ - author of Angel On Board. www.angelonboard.com


    AngelOnBoard
    New friend
    Posts: 6
    (12/13/04 8:28 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Why don't you make your own decision instead of follow the crowd...

    This has been an interesting experience.

    I need to get back to my job now - that is selling tons of books.

    For you CaoPaux, I'd suggest the book "What is Becoming Clearer To Me" - it'll be good for you.

    www.bookstobelievein.com/...learer.htm

    Happy Holidays...

    EJ

    CaoPaux
    One of the
    locals
    Posts: 177
    (12/13/04 8:47 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Why don't you make your own decision instead of follow www.bookstobelievein.com/...Sample.pdf

    Nice sentiment, but needs editing, IMO.

    ETA: The complaint is not against self-publishing. It is against taking folks' money for a sub-par product.

    CAO
    -------
    "I've never known any trouble that an hour's reading didn't assuage."
    -- Charles DeSecondat
    Edited by: CaoPaux at: 12/13/04 8:54 pm


    MacAl Stone
    Mutant power
    of making
    glasses appear
    half-full
    Posts: 1377
    (12/14/04 2:25 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: If they'd've just looked... Cao--I'm thinking gormless AND predatory...

    -- Death to the Pig Lords! -- I dunno what it means exactly,
    but it seems like a damn good idea.




    AngelOnBoard
    New friend
    Posts: 7
    (12/14/04 12:32 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post common webpage design Your comparison here is unfounded.

    My webpage has a black background with colorful text, which stands out on the page. Guess what, not every website that has a black background is a copy of someone else's.

    You guys need to be working on your writing of press releases or your media kit for when your book is in print.
    Or join a writing club where people who have published their books and have success stories can be of inspiration to you, instead of lingering in cyberspace trying to figure out what is wrong with everyone else's process.

    Web page changed again - check it out. I think it'll change again tomorrow, based on the recent activity. It is a golden opportunity to showcase what my company truly stands for. www.profitablepublishing.net





    Stlight
    New friend
    Posts: 20
    (12/14/04 12:48 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Profitable Publishing Out of curiosity I went to the site and checked the prices of the first two books in three categories. Point one, it would be nice if the prices were listed by the books on the page. I'm guessing they appear after you click add to cart. I clicked Amazon to check prices.
    Fiction:
    the angel book - the owner's I think - 254 pages @ 16.95
    next book - 223 pages @ 14.95
    Non-fiction:
    206 pages @ 23.95
    58 pages @14.95
    Children's books:
    46 pages - new & used @ 9.95
    108 pages @ 10.95

    Since I know nothing of the pricing of poetry books I did not check this section. What I do see in the ones I checked is a wide discrepancy. Why is a 254 page fiction book 16.95 and a 206 page non-fiction book 23.95? Pages are pages.

    Stlight

    DaveKuzminski
    Board royalty
    Posts: 1036
    (12/14/04 12:57 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Publishers need author contracts It appears that it might be time to create a topic for ProfitablePublishing.Net

    absolutewrite
    Administrator
    Posts: 1579
    (12/14/04 1:02 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    ezSupporter
    &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Publishers need author contracts

    Quote:b elieve in yourself enough to pay to have your book published



    EJ, I believe in myself to hold out for a legitimate book contract, wherein a publisher pays me tens of thousands of dollars for my work before it's even in print. I'm really tired of this rhetoric ("if you believe in your work, you'll pay to have it printed").

    And EJ, you're making mighty large claims-- that you get your authors' books into stores, libraries, etc. and teach them how to market. Do you care to tell us what your authors' sales numbers look like or should we do the digging ourselves? Can I walk into my local store and find any of your authors' books?

    Jenna Glatzer
    Ed-in-Chief
    Absolute Write
    Author of Make a Real Living as a Freelance Writer and plenty of other books, too
    AngelOnBoard
    New friend
    Posts: 8
    (12/14/04 1:05 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post prices based on the book itself I don't follow a pricing formula. I look at each book and determine the price. The manufacture price is based on page count and materials, but the retail price is based on the value of the book and what the author wants.
    They decide their own royalty. I suggest, but they control, that way everyone is happy.

    And yes, they do sell at the prices we set and they sell very well.

    EJ

    HapiSofi
    Board fanatic
    Posts: 414
    (12/14/04 1:15 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: prices based on the book itself Malarkey. They sell to the author's friends and relations. That'll be 70-75 copies on average. I doubt many of them have even hit the break-even point.

    FM St George
    Board fanatic
    Posts: 413
    (12/14/04 1:18 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post pulling it back to PA... funny, this is the SAME argument that PublishAmerica uses - that somehow they sell the books irregardless of the price...

    after all, who wouldn't want to pay twenty bucks for an unknown author's first novel?

    :rollin

    HapiSofi
    Board fanatic
    Posts: 415
    (12/14/04 1:21 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Publishers need author contracts CaoPaux asked:

    So, what’s the verdict, folks…"gormless, but harmless" or "predatory"?

    My take? Might have once been gormless and idealistic, but is drifting into predation. She's got a business model where exploitive practices are the only ones that'll make money.

    Dhewco
    Board regular
    Posts: 60
    (12/14/04 1:23 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Selling to family I must be pathetic. I can't think of 70-75 friends and family, period. Whether they would buy my book or not. I supposed I could count the people in my church, but that's stretching it.

    That's another reason I would never go vanity or self,subsidy...I would have no family to sell to.


    David

    Edited by: Dhewco at: 12/14/04 1:25 pm
    AngelOnBoard
    New friend
    Posts: 9
    (12/14/04 1:24 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post do whatever you want. If you believe in yourself long enough to hold out - good luck with that. That is your choice, your path and strictly your decision. But not everyone feels that way -I know I didn't! You do your fellow authors a disservice to talk them out of proceeding because of a decision you've made for your book. If there is one thing I've learned is that everyone takes a completely different path in this business. I don't want you to copy my path - you couldn't if you tried. And most successful authors would tell you that too. You have to find your own way. If you're not in print yet, then you aren't selling books, you don't understand the distribution channels or the supply chains - so you really can't comment on that from a point of experience. So don't!

    I don't know where you live to tell you if you can find the books on the shelves or not. Take an ISBN off www.bookstobelievein.com and go to a bookstore and figure it out. You can get it from the web wherever you live, that's why the bookstore's links are included with the book. I won't even attempt to predict what you'll find at a bookstore, because I don't know whether you're going to a large giant or the neighborhood independent bookstore. I don't know if you're going to get a knowledgable salesclerk or a trainee. So, just go and test.

    My authors and I are enjoying this process, it is a lot of fun. I took ten of them to a signing on Saturday and we sold 130 books. We had a blast! I meet my authors, I am part of their lives and I am one of their friends, because being in business with someone is so much more pleasant when you are. I'm not a huge conglomerate that is faceless and political, I'm a reasonably small press that has the ability to adapt rapidly to the marketplace and capitalize on it for the good of myself and all my authors!

    But I can see you guys are operating under a ton of misconceptions. I do recommend you go to a writers group in your area and talk to people who are already in print and find out how hard a business this really is! If you really want to wait around until you get a big contract, there are people there who have already done such a thing - go learn from them - and figure out what works for you.

    I've found that the more knowledgable they are in the book selling industry, the more they like my process. But that is my experience.

    Go make your own experience and tell about it and help those who come after you.

    EJ

    CaoPaux
    One of the
    locals
    Posts: 178
    (12/14/04 1:24 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: prices based on the book itself In case y'all were wondering, this is what prompted the "blog" and "ten-foot pole" comments on her webpage: nielsenhayden.com/makingl...tml#005922

    And I also vote for breaking this out into a separate topic.

    CAO
    -------
    "I've never known any trouble that an hour's reading didn't assuage."
    -- Charles DeSecondat

  6. #6
    aka eraser
    Guest

    Re: ProfitablePublishing.net may be the son of PA!

    I copied the relevant posts to yet another new thread. I'd like you folks to take up the discussion from there please.

    I'm going to close this one. (Sorry Ed).

  7. #7
    Risseybug
    Guest

    Re: Profitable Publishing

    Blah! I had a nice long reply all written up, and you closed the thread before I could get it up!

    Damn, I'm not typing all that again.

    Writers - you deserve better. Your work deserves better. Find a traditional publisher. If that doesn't work the first time, improve your writing and try again. Don't take the easy way out.

    I guess that will have to do.

  8. #8
    CaoPaux
    Guest

    Re: Profitable Publishing

    Relinking, just cuz I’m hyphenated that way…

    A sample of PP fiction: www.bookstobelievein.com/...eDevil.pdf

    The motivational book EJ recommended to me: www.bookstobelievein.com/...Sample.pdf

    The commentary on Making Light: nielsenhayden.com/makingl...tml#005922

    My opinion of PP? So completely clueless as to be detrimental to its clients.

  9. #9
    Kate Nepveu
    Guest

    Re: Profitable Publishing

    AngelOnBoard:
    I don't know where you live to tell you if you can find the books on the shelves or not. Take an ISBN off www.bookstobelievein.com and go to a bookstore and figure it out.
    Okay, I've taken the on-shelf challenge.

    Methodology:

    www.bordersstores.com. Six stores picked from those within 100 miles of Albany, Chicago, and San Francisco (six is as many as they'll let you do at a time; I used three locations because I have three web browsers on this computer).

    NY: Clifton Park, Albany, Saratoga Springs, Poughkeepsie, Farmington, Keene
    IL: Chicago - State St., Oak Park, Evanston, Deerfield, Wheaton, Matteson
    CA: San Francisco - Union Square, Emeryville, Union City, Fremont, Santa Cruz, Sunnyvale.

    Start with the top books on http://www.bookstobelievein.com/. Search on ISBN on all three locations.

    According to Borders' "Store Availability Definitions":
    YES:
    This title was in store as of the last inventory update. Store inventory information is updated once every 24 hours so it's possible that the availability of this item has changed.

    NO:
    This title is out of print or unavailable. If the item is a book, your local Borders store may be able to locate a used or out of print copy for you. Unfortunately we are unable to obtain out of print music, DVDs, videos, or audio books.

    ORDER:
    This title is temporarily out of stock or is not stocked at this store. Ordered items usually arrive within 1-6 weeks.

    PRE-ORDER:
    This title has not yet been published. Not yet published items can be pre-ordered and will be available when released for sale by the publisher or label (see publication date).
    And the list:

    1. A Boy, A Ship & A War, by Claud Aldrich, ISBN: 0-9670242-6-9
    "Order" at all 18.

    2. A Dolphin's Tale, by Richard R. Blake, ISBN: 0-9670242-3-4
    "Order" at all 18.

    3. A Weekend of Fun, by Christina Weimer, ISBN: 1-932344-72-1
    No matches on ISBN or author or title.

    4. Accounting Through The Eyes of Faith, by Jack Bower, CPA, ISBN: 0-9723309-0-9
    "Order" at all 18.

    5. Acquaintances with Integrity, by Sam Kegley, ISBN: 1-932344-05-5
    "Order" at all 18.

    6. Alanora's Magic Tree, by Alondra Mello, ISBN: 1-932344-77-2
    No matches on ISBN or author or title.

    7. Angel On Board, by EJ Thornton, ISBN: 1-932344-76-4
    "Order" at all 18.

    8. At Odds with the Devil, by Karen Watts, ISBN: 0-9670242-1-8
    "Order" at all 18.

    9. Atlantis Book I, by Travis Cole, ISBN: 0-9719597-9-X
    "Order" at all 18.

    (I admit I skipped here to the last Atlantis book):

    10. Atlantis Book V, by Travis Cole, ISBN: 1-932344-10-1
    "Order" at all 18.

    11. Bartrob, by Inez Powell, ISBN: 1-932344-52-7
    "Order" at all 18.

    12. Basics of Profitable Publishing, by EJ Thornton, ISBN: 1-932344-50-0
    "Order" at all 18.

    A round dozen, and time to start skipping around on the list:

    13. Carrotsville, by Diana Todd, ISBN: 1-932344-61-6
    "Order" at all 18.

    14. Fairy Ballerina Princess, by Leona Neighbour, ISBN: 1-932344-42-X
    "Order" at all 18.

    15. Health and the Domino Effect, by Sharon R. Price, Ph.D., CN, ISBN: 1-932344-55-1
    "Order" at all 18.

    16. I Am The Word, by Jamika J. Witherspoon, ISBN: 0-9719597-0-6
    "Order" at all 18.

    17. Little Airplane, by Joseph R. Weymon, ISBN: 0-9723309-9-2
    "Order" at all 18.

    18. Mastermind Memory Techniques, by Craig Mason, ISBN: 1-932344-59-4
    "Order" at all 18.

    19. Spirit Dancer, by Sharon Silva, ISBN: 1-932344-79-9
    No matches on ISBN or author or title.

    20. Touch of Christmas, by Lene Mumaugh, ISBN: 1-932344-19-5
    "Order" at all 18.

    In short: twenty books, not a single one on-shelf at 18 different stores in three states across the country.

    Oh, and AngelOnBoard also said:
    I've found that the more knowledgable they are in the book selling industry, the more they like my process.
    Are you aware that Teresa Nielsen Hayden, who writes Making Light, is an editor at Tor Books? That Jim McDonald here makes a living writing more (terrific!) books than I can shake a stick at, with major houses? That . . . oh, you get the idea.

  10. #10
    Stlight
    Guest

    Re: Profitable Publishing

    EJ

    Knowing way more about V-POD or "self-publishing" or partner publishing or whatever you want to call it than I ever wanted or needed to know, I have a question. (No, it isn't about karma.)

    When you publish one of your partner author books, how many free copies do you send to the author?

    When you offer an author discount for the author to buy books (come now you must if you're giving them a marketing plan) how many copies do your authors have to buy in one lot to get that "author's discount"?

    Stlight

  11. #11
    Whachawant
    Guest

    Re: Profitable Publishing

    That's quite the detective work, Kate!

    Hmmm! I don't see too many in store responses.

    Perhaps we should track some of these, what say you James? What's that web site again?

  12. #12
    Kate Nepveu
    Guest

    Re: Profitable Publishing

    Thanks, Whachawant, but it was really just a matter of cutting & pasting while I decompressed from something else.

    (If I were *really* dedicated I'd check the whole list, but I do have other things to do, and I think the gist of the matter is pretty clear from those 20 books.)

  13. #13
    HapiSofi
    Guest

    Re: Profitable Publishing

    Aw jeez, I just posted a long message to the wrong thread. Let me go get it ...

  14. #14
    HapiSofi
    Guest

    Re: Profitable Publishing

    E.J. Thornton said:
    If you believe in yourself long enough to hold out - good luck with that. That is your choice, your path and strictly your decision. But not everyone feels that way -I know I didn't!
    So you got rejected. It happens. Those who become successful authors tend to react to it by working on their writing.
    You do your fellow authors a disservice to talk them out of proceeding because of a decision you've made for your book.
    You are wrong, mistaken, and barking up the wrong tree. I've never submitted a book to anyone in my life. My opinions are based on my knowledge of conventional publishing, and my familiarity with the sales pitches and realities of vanity PODs like your own.
    If there is one thing I've learned is that everyone takes a completely different path in this business.
    Authors all take different paths. Successful publishers are somewhat less variable, since they have to take cognizance of real-world facts.
    I don't want you to copy my path - you couldn't if you tried. And most successful authors would tell you that too. You have to find your own way.
    There are a number of paths to real publication. Ignoring them all, taking off into the underbrush, and winding up lost in a thorny bog is not "finding your own way." Your follies are your own concern. Our only interest is that you're doing your best to lure others into the bog along with you.
    If you're not in print yet, then you aren't selling books, you don't understand the distribution channels or the supply chains - so you really can't comment on that from a point of experience. So don't!
    Oh, my. That's interesting. You think the only people who sell books are authors, and that they're the only ones who understand distribution channels. That is, you've never gone anywhere near legit publishing, or real bookselling and distribution. It's not part of your worldview at all.

    Let's start with the basics: You don't know squat about distribution channels or supply chains. What the vanity/POD universe knows about distribution is that Ingram and sometimes Baker & Taylor are carelessly willing to sell copies of POD books to people who already want to buy them and will pay in advance, and that Amazon and B&N are willing to list books for sale on the same basis. What they know about production and supply chains is the phone number of Lightning. If they're especially sophisticated, they may know about the existence of short-run print & bind operations. That's nothing.

    There's a world of people out there who've never written a book, but who know hugely more about distribution than you do. Ditto, people who know production and inventory. You don't know they exist because those people work for conventional publishing houses--you know, the ones that sell books and make money.

    POD-people are forever whining about how the only books that get into the bookstores are the ones with huge promotional budgets. They're wrong. What those books have going for them (aside from "they don't suck") is real publishing organizations, real sales departments, and real distribution deals. You have no idea how those work. You should.

    You've been doing this stuff for years now. You've had time to read a book or three on how publishing and distribution work. Failing to do so is folly in someone who's self-published. It's culpable negligence in someone who undertakes to publish other people's books.
    I don't know where you live to tell you if you can find the books on the shelves or not. Take an ISBN off www.bookstobelievein.com and go to a bookstore and figure it out. You can get it from the web wherever you live, that's why the bookstore's links are included with the book. I won't even attempt to predict what you'll find at a bookstore, because I don't know whether you're going to a large giant or the neighborhood independent bookstore. I don't know if you're going to get a knowledgable salesclerk or a trainee. So, just go and test.
    Nope. Not gonna do it. I know the answer. As I said before, you don't have a sales force or a distribution deal. You don't take returns, either. (I'm not sure you know what they are.) And since you don't have those things, you also don't have your authors' books on bookstore shelves. There may be a few copies in a few stores, where your authors have talked the managers into it; but that's all.
    My authors and I are enjoying this process, it is a lot of fun.
    Most FRPGs are.
    I took ten of them to a signing on Saturday and we sold 130 books. We had a blast!
    Really no kidding how interesting. Where was the signing, who were the authors, and what books were being signed and sold?
    I meet my authors, I am part of their lives and I am one of their friends, because being in business with someone is so much more pleasant when you are. I'm not a huge conglomerate that is faceless and political,
    Huge conglomerate, check. Impersonal, check. I already knew you'd never come into contact with a real publishing house; this just helps confirm it.
    I'm a reasonably small press that has the ability to adapt rapidly to the marketplace and capitalize on it for the good of myself and all my authors!
    You're not a reasonably small press. You're a website, a printing connection, and a line of patter. As for your ability to adapt and capitalize on changes, let's start with a really obvious one: what are you doing about the Ingram reorganization, and how do you think the impending changes will affect your company?
    But I can see you guys are operating under a ton of misconceptions.
    I'm sure it's consoling to think so.
    I do recommend you go to a writers group in your area and talk to people who are already in print and find out how hard a business this really is!
    Come to New York sometime and I'll buy you a cup of coffee.

    Have you noticed how many published authors there are in this forum? There are also professional editors; and if Andy Zack has wandered over this way, there's a real live agent.

    Don't try to condescend to this group. It won't work.
    If you really want to wait around until you get a big contract, there are people there who have already done such a thing - go learn from them - and figure out what works for you.
    You're arguing with people who've done exactly that, and you're not fooling them for a minute.
    I've found that the more knowledgable they are in the book selling industry, the more they like my process.
    [SFX: Unkind laughter.] Honey, those guys you meet in bars who tell you sure, they can sell your books? You gotta stop falling for that.
    But that is my experience. Go make your own experience and tell about it and help those who come after you.
    I have experience. I'm telling about it. And I'm helping those who come after by warning them not to go near your publishing business.

  15. #15
    James D Macdonald
    Guest

    Re: Profitable Publishing

    Guys, Profitable Publishing isn't the Big Bad. They're just one among a thousand similar places. The only difference between them and all their brothers and sisters is that we've noticed it.

    I mean, there they were, bumbling along with anywhere from zero to twenty-five page views a day, when all of a sudden they're mentioned here, and suddenly they have twelve hundred pageviews.

    My personal opinion: Gormless. Helpless. Hopeless. I'm sorry for the authors who wind up with this or any of a hundred hundred others ... I remember another, a year or so ago, that had a far snazzier website (Flash animation, all kinds of bells and whistles) that claimed as their big selling point that unlike those snooty New York publishers they'd read every word of your submission.

    They had a few books in their catalog.

    Today, when I looked for their site, I got an Error 404.

    What became of those books? What became of those authors? I don't know.

    Were the books any good?

    I don't know.

    EJ says, If you really want to wait around until you get a big contract, there are people there who have already done such a thing - go learn from them - and figure out what works for you.

    I'm that guy, EJ. I looked at your page, and it made me feel sad. Sad for you, sad for your authors. I could give you advice, but I don't know if you'd want to hear it. My advice to your authors is: Keep practicing your skills. Write, write more. Read. Then write.

    Again, EJ says, You do your fellow authors a disservice to talk them out of proceeding because of a decision you've made for your book.

    Alas, I feel my moral duty is to talk them out of proceeding with vanity publication. I hope you'll understand.

  16. #16
    Kate St Amour
    Guest

    Re: do whatever you want.

    **Moved from PA thread**

    <quote>But I can see you guys are operating under a ton of misconceptions. I do recommend you go to a writers group in your area and talk to people who are already in print and find out how hard a business this really is! If you really want to wait around until you get a big contract, there are people there who have already done such a thing - go learn from them - and figure out what works for you.</quote>

    Oh, my. Before you embarrass yourself further: James Macdonald's books can be found in just about every bookstore across the country, as can Jenna Glatzer's, AC Crispin's, and several other accomplished (even bestselling) authors here that do not post under their names.

  17. #17
    LawShark
    Guest

    Poor Man's Copyright

    Just a comment on the so-called "Poor Man's Copyright":

    It's useless. And has been since 1909. That includes the ad that is currently running in writing magazines for the "service."

    All of this nonsense comes from evidence law, not intellectual property law, as it was described in some really bad "inventors' guides" in the 1930s and 1940s. Until the reform of the Patent Act in the 1950s, it was very difficult (or impossible) to get regularly kept records, such as laboratory notebooks, admitted at the Patent Office to prove date of conception, date of reduction to practice, or the on-sale bar date. The Patent Act's reforms were later extended by implication (that is, not very clearly!) into the Federal Rules of Evidence. It is now routine to admit regularly kept business records, such as one's submission log, into evidence for the truth of the matters stated on those records. In any event, the copyright <s>scam artists</s> "businesspeople" interpreted the patent issues to also apply to copyright. Hint: the Copyright Act is in Title 17 of the U.S. Code; the Patent Act is in Title 35 of the U.S. Code; and, ordinarily, most related provisions in the U.S. Code appear in the same title.

    In any event, there's another reason that "poor man's copyright" isn't helpful: One cannot sue on a copyright in the US without registration. The certificate of registration, on its face, provides all of the prima facie proof of conception (etc.) needed for a copyright claim. If things are getting more complex than that, the poor man's copyright won't be helpful in any event.

    So, then, here's the bottom line:

    Keep regular business records of completion and submission of works. In particular, keep copies of your cover letters, and preferably a CD-ROM that you've burned with the completed work as soon as you complete it. These business records will be admissible to show when you made a protectable expression.

    Register your copyrights for material that is significantly at risk of infringement. (The details of THAT are not for this board!)

    Ignore anything in between, especially if a third party tries to claim that you really, really need to pay for their service in order to protect your rights.

    If you're dealing with Hollywood (TV or film), make sure you follow all of the "idea protection" rules... none of which are followed by a "poor man's copyright".

    C.E. Petit, Esq.
    www.authorslawyer.com

  18. #18
    LawShark
    Guest

    Re: Poor Man's Copyright

    Just a comment on the so-called "Poor Man's Copyright":

    It's useless. And has been since 1909. That includes the ad that is currently running in writing magazines for the "service."

    All of this nonsense comes from evidence law, not intellectual property law, as it was described in some really bad "inventors' guides" in the 1930s and 1940s. Until the reform of the Patent Act in the 1950s, it was very difficult (or impossible) to get regularly kept records, such as laboratory notebooks, admitted at the Patent Office to prove date of conception, date of reduction to practice, or the on-sale bar date. The Patent Act's reforms were later extended by implication (that is, not very clearly!) into the Federal Rules of Evidence. It is now routine to admit regularly kept business records, such as one's submission log, into evidence for the truth of the matters stated on those records. In any event, the copyright <s>scam artists</s> "businesspeople" interpreted the patent issues to also apply to copyright. Hint: the Copyright Act is in Title 17 of the U.S. Code; the Patent Act is in Title 35 of the U.S. Code; and, ordinarily, most related provisions in the U.S. Code appear in the same title.

    In any event, there's another reason that "poor man's copyright" isn't helpful: One cannot sue on a copyright in the US without registration. The certificate of registration, on its face, provides all of the prima facie proof of conception (etc.) needed for a copyright claim. If things are getting more complex than that, the poor man's copyright won't be helpful in any event.

    So, then, here's the bottom line:

    Keep regular business records of completion and submission of works. In particular, keep copies of your cover letters, and preferably a CD-ROM that you've burned with the completed work as soon as you complete it. These business records will be admissible to show when you made a protectable expression.

    Register your copyrights for material that is significantly at risk of infringement. (The details of THAT are not for this board!)

    Ignore anything in between, especially if a third party tries to claim that you really, really need to pay for their service in order to protect your rights.

    If you're dealing with Hollywood (TV or film), make sure you follow all of the "idea protection" rules... none of which are followed by a "poor man's copyright".

    C.E. Petit, Esq.
    http://www.authorslawyer.com

  19. #19
    CaoPaux
    Guest

    But, but, ...

    *sneaks in cluebat behind Uncle Jim’s back*

    Psst. EJ. Over here. And here. And here, too, while we’re at it.

  20. #20
    HapiSofi
    Guest

    Re: Profitable Publishing

    James, I think you're suggesting that in a season of charity, I was not as charitable as I might have been.

  21. #21
    Kate St Amour
    Guest

    Re: Poor Man's Copyright

    Thank you for taking the time to write a detailed post!

  22. #22
    SRHowen
    Guest

    Hapi

    Moved from the PA thread:

    Have you noticed how many published authors there are in this forum? There are also professional editors; and if Andy Zack has wandered over this way, there's a real live agent.
    Ahh, Hapi--Andy is here if you mean on the board, (though I did get an ez e-mail saying that they were on to me and that they thought it was a dirty trick to pretend to be my agent)(sigh) (people at times drive me bonkers) but I think he would stay out of this thread.(the PA one)

    Shawn

  23. #23
    HapiSofi
    Guest

    Re: Hapi

    SRH said:
    Ahh, Hapi--Andy is here if you mean on the board, (though I did get an ez e-mail saying that they were on to me and that they thought it was a dirty trick to pretend to be my agent)(sigh) (people at times drive me bonkers) but I think he would stay out of this thread.(the PA one)
    They who?

    They (whoever they are) think you and Andy Zack are the same person? How earless can they be? And how much trouble is it to feed "Andy Zack" into Google and find out that (a.) he's real, and (b.) sounds exactly like that person who's posting on the Bewares Board?

    Not an opinion you have to care about, IMO.

  24. #24
    SRHowen
    Guest

    Re: Hapi

    "they" the writer of the e-mail--stupid people.

    Shawn

  25. #25
    CaoPaux
    Guest

    Re: Hapi

    Wanna borrow my cluebat, Shawn? It's freshly waxed. :\

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