Are Westerns history?

Are westerns history?

  • Yep. Deadier than Billy the Kid.

    Votes: 9 18.0%
  • Not yet, but the sun's not quite set yet. Soon though.

    Votes: 2 4.0%
  • Dormant. Like a frog in the mud during the winter.

    Votes: 6 12.0%
  • It's just a market that is on the down cycle. It'll come back.

    Votes: 28 56.0%
  • Other : Please specify what you think.

    Votes: 8 16.0%
  • Westerns? What in tarnation are westerns? Did they die out with black and white TV?

    Votes: 2 4.0%

  • Total voters
    50

Scribhneoir

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Science fiction isn't all that popular, either. It's certain more popular than traditional westerns, but even SF has only about a 3% market share.

One caveat about Frank Price's opinion -- the question was asked in the context of television programs, so the 3% market share of SF doesn't quite apply. I felt it was still appropriate to share here, though, given that folks who watch westerns on TV probably enjoy reading western books, too.

Today's readers, as a whole, have too much fiction to choose from, and have more sophisticated taste than readers did thirty years ago.

But today's writers surely share that more sophisticated taste, so why have westerns dwindled instead of growing into a more complex form and maintaining their popularity? Mysteries, for instance, have gained sophistication over the decades and developed a number of niches to appeal to all tastes. Why hasn't the western done the same?
 

JeanneTGC

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But today's writers surely share that more sophisticated taste, so why have westerns dwindled instead of growing into a more complex form and maintaining their popularity? Mysteries, for instance, have gained sophistication over the decades and developed a number of niches to appeal to all tastes. Why hasn't the western done the same?
One reason might be the segmentation of the bookstore, if you will. I know that when I've spoken to publishers about my novel set in the Old West, they are quick to confirm that, in their opinion, it's NOT a Western, because I'm not following a set "Western formula" (and, yes, I've had more than one industry professional say that and explain the formula to me).

They've had to explain it to me because I thought -- since my story is set in the Old West, incorporates real people from history, centers around outlaws and lawmen, has gunfights, knife fights, stampedes, etc. -- that it was a Western. Not so, apparently.

I'm querying it as Historical Fiction. But when I look at my bookshelves, I still can't fully understand why it's "not" a Western.
 

AussieBilly

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I'm female. And I know a number of women who like and read westerns --

I know, I know ... but looking at the numbers, you and that number of women are still, I aver, in the minority when it comes to readers of westerns, both fiction and the real deal. That's not putting down you female western people ... I love 'everyone who picks up a western ... but -- well, I guess I stand by what I said.
Meanwhile, the sun is out on the beach this day before Easter so it's gone I am ...
 

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They've had to explain it to me because I thought -- since my story is set in the Old West, incorporates real people from history, centers around outlaws and lawmen, has gunfights, knife fights, stampedes, etc. -- that it was a Western. Not so, apparently.

Do they list this formula? I'd like to see what their criteria is.

-Bill
 

Vanatru

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Right here, for a start. I'm female. :D And I know a number of women who like and read westerns -- both fiction and non-fiction.

Gotta love the ladies in jeans. :)

Suprisingly, to me, we have several Canadian women here who really like westerns. I gave 'em all my Richard Wyler (Incident at Butler's Station, Savage Journey) books and they loved 'em.

Maybe that should be a new thread; The Westerns Ladies Love
 

Jamesaritchie

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But today's writers surely share that more sophisticated taste, so why have westerns dwindled instead of growing into a more complex form and maintaining their popularity? Mysteries, for instance, have gained sophistication over the decades and developed a number of niches to appeal to all tastes. Why hasn't the western done the same?

I think the writers who really do share this sophisticated taste are doing very well. They simply are not writing "traditional" westerns set in the 1860-1890 era.

I also think there is an fair readership for "traditional" westerns, but this readership is being covered nicely by existing westerns by L'Amour, Will Henry, Zane Grey, etc., and by the few western writers out there actually publishing today.

Here's the trouble in comparing traditional westerns with mysteries. Mysteries are constantly updated to reflect the times we live in. The characters are present day people, and behave as present day people, use present day technology, have present day problems, etc. The settings, too, are present day. So readers can far more easily relate to these mysteries, whatever the particular niche the mystery falls under.

By default, traditional westerns not only take place in the distant past, the scope, location, and story types are almost always going to be ones readers have either already seen, or have great trouble relating to.

This country is far more "citified" than it was just two or three decades ago. The vast majority of people live in cities, and even country folk are, in large part, living the lifestyle of city dwellers. The internet, the cell phone, and cable TV have made this happen.

I firmly believe that a western writer who wishes to succeed today must do one of two things. 1. Write westerns that modern readers can relate to in some way by changing the setting, the time period, or, as McMurtry did, the scope of the story. 2. Being good enough, and fortunate enough, to fill one of the very few slots open to writers of traditional westerns. And even here you won't make much money on a per novel basis.

Mysteries have moved on from what they were decades ago, romance novels have moved on from what they were decades ago, and westerns need to do the same.
 

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One reason might be the segmentation of the bookstore, if you will. I know that when I've spoken to publishers about my novel set in the Old West, they are quick to confirm that, in their opinion, it's NOT a Western, because I'm not following a set "Western formula" (and, yes, I've had more than one industry professional say that and explain the formula to me).

They've had to explain it to me because I thought -- since my story is set in the Old West, incorporates real people from history, centers around outlaws and lawmen, has gunfights, knife fights, stampedes, etc. -- that it was a Western. Not so, apparently.

I'm querying it as Historical Fiction. But when I look at my bookshelves, I still can't fully understand why it's "not" a Western.
Personally I think a lot of it's semi-intellectual snobbery on the part of publishing. There was a time when "Historical Fiction" meant Romance, and no one wanted to be put in that classification. Good Westerns have always been historical. L'Amour for all his faults used many historical backdrops and events in his stories.

I've mentioned before the lack of open peer networking for Western authors, and that combined with the rise of the pen name "Adult Westerns" (Longarm and so on) crippled the entry of fresh Western authors at a time when they were really needed. That and, of course, the trend Jeanne mentioned of shoving good authors into Historical or some other area because they "didn't fit the Western profile," which seems to become more low-brow by the day while the movie Western (Unforgiven is perhaps the best example) has been raising the bar as far as content and what people expect from a Western.
 

Cav Guy

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I think the writers who really do share this sophisticated taste are doing very well. They simply are not writing "traditional" westerns set in the 1860-1890 era.

I also think there is an fair readership for "traditional" westerns, but this readership is being covered nicely by existing westerns by L'Amour, Will Henry, Zane Grey, etc., and by the few western writers out there actually publishing today.

Here's the trouble in comparing traditional westerns with mysteries. Mysteries are constantly updated to reflect the times we live in. The characters are present day people, and behave as present day people, use present day technology, have present day problems, etc. The settings, too, are present day. So readers can far more easily relate to these mysteries, whatever the particular niche the mystery falls under.

By default, traditional westerns not only take place in the distant past, the scope, location, and story types are almost always going to be ones readers have either already seen, or have great trouble relating to.

This country is far more "citified" than it was just two or three decades ago. The vast majority of people live in cities, and even country folk are, in large part, living the lifestyle of city dwellers. The internet, the cell phone, and cable TV have made this happen.

I firmly believe that a western writer who wishes to succeed today must do one of two things. 1. Write westerns that modern readers can relate to in some way by changing the setting, the time period, or, as McMurtry did, the scope of the story. 2. Being good enough, and fortunate enough, to fill one of the very few slots open to writers of traditional westerns. And even here you won't make much money on a per novel basis.

Mysteries have moved on from what they were decades ago, romance novels have moved on from what they were decades ago, and westerns need to do the same.
I disagree, respectfully but firmly, with this idea. If it were so, you wouldn't see the various mountain man series that Wheeler and others have been writing successfully.

Part of the appeal of the Western (historical or traditional) is the escapist element in it. We've been comparing them to SciFi, but perhaps another good analogy would be the fantasy novel. In no small way the Western is the mythology of the United States. The appeal of the myth goes in cycles, but it is still there. And it's also the myth that many other countries think of when they think of the United States (look at Sergio Leone for one).

Sure, the plot structure and elements will evolve, as will the vision of main characters and the historical segments covered. But the appeal of Shane, the Man with No Name, Will Muny, Jose Wales, and others will always be there. The myth of the lone lawman, gunman, or trapper carving his own place in an expanding realm will always appeal to people.

I've heard the urbanization argument before, but I don't completely buy into it. It has an impact, to be sure, but at the same time it can also create a longing for that escape. I would tend to point more at the increasing ignorance of most Americans of their own history as a contributing factor.
 

Scribhneoir

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I've heard the urbanization argument before, but I don't completely buy into it. It has an impact, to be sure, but at the same time it can also create a longing for that escape. I would tend to point more at the increasing ignorance of most Americans of their own history as a contributing factor.

I don't think it's necessarily increasing ignorance of American history so much as a lack of exposure to western stories. My local Borders has two aisles of SF/Fantasy and just three shelves of westerns (and those are mostly Louis L'amour). There's little to no cross-fertilization with pop culture these days, either.

When I was a kid, I'd watch reruns of western TV shows after school. That led me to seek out western novels and that led to an interest in the real history of the Old West. Today's kids have to look long and hard to find westerns on TV, outside of the Encore Westerns Channel. Western films hit the theaters maybe once every few years. Sadly, westerns just aren't part of the air we breathe anymore.
 

Jamesaritchie

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I disagree, respectfully but firmly, with this idea. If it were so, you wouldn't see the various mountain man series that Wheeler and others have been writing successfully.

Part of the appeal of the Western (historical or traditional) is the escapist element in it. We've been comparing them to SciFi, but perhaps another good analogy would be the fantasy novel. In no small way the Western is the mythology of the United States. The appeal of the myth goes in cycles, but it is still there. And it's also the myth that many other countries think of when they think of the United States (look at Sergio Leone for one).

Sure, the plot structure and elements will evolve, as will the vision of main characters and the historical segments covered. But the appeal of Shane, the Man with No Name, Will Muny, Jose Wales, and others will always be there. The myth of the lone lawman, gunman, or trapper carving his own place in an expanding realm will always appeal to people.

I've heard the urbanization argument before, but I don't completely buy into it. It has an impact, to be sure, but at the same time it can also create a longing for that escape. I would tend to point more at the increasing ignorance of most Americans of their own history as a contributing factor.

I'd hardly call such mountain men books proof of anything, except that a couple of writers can still sell such books. How many such series are there? And mountain man books are not usually counted as traditional westerns, at least by publishers. I said some writers will still fill a few spaces, but sure not many, and most of them do not sell very well at all when compared to novels in other genres.

Nor are the books you list the standard fare of traditional westerns. These are all writers who stepped outside the bounds and did something different, or writers who are writing historical, not traditional westerns..

There will always be a market for escapist novels, but there are many types of escapist novels, every genre has more than its fair share of escapist novels, and I just do not see huge numbers of readers drawn to traditional westerns as escape reading. And most of those who are drawn to such can more than fill their reading needs with already written and published novels.

Yes, the appeal will always be there, but the question is one of numbers, and the more urbanized we become, and the further in time we move from the old west, the less I believe this appeal will be, and the lower the numbers, at least for traditional westerns. We can't even say the old west happened in the last century now.

Yes, the appeal will always be there for some people. but not, I think, for the masses as was once the case. Cycles or not, there comes a point for any type novel, and for any myth, when same old, same old will no longer fare well in the marketplace.

Time moves on, and the mythos moves right along with it. I don't think the traditional western will ever die, but I don't think there's a chance in ten million that the traditional western will ever again be nearly as popular as it once was.

Nor do I think it matters. The myth of the lone lawman, gunman, or trapper carving his own place in an expanding realm is the same, whether it's set in the hold west, or set on a far future science fiction world, a magic-filled fantasy world, or in a hard-boiled private eye world.

The myth, the spirit, the rugged individualism, the bravery, is in the man, not in the time period or setting where he lived.

But more and more, the majority of readers are going to find this mythos in genres outside of traditional westerns.

Nor do I believe good fiction is ever 100% escapist. I sure never read westerns to escape, and I've always hated writers who didn't have something to say above and beyond escapism. I think one of the things wrong with so much current western fiction is that the writers only think about escapism. Escapism is fine, but the writer had darned well better tell a story, and fill it with characters, that the majority of readers can somehow relate to and emulate.

Time moves on, and we either move on with it, or we get left behind.
 

AussieBilly

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Well, I guess we all agree on one thing ... or was that two things? Three?
Anyhow, the western isn't dead ... just lying back pulling the light sabers outa our backs.

With all this support for the genre, will someone take my hand and lead me to agents who will take on a western novel? ... something rarely found in my searches. How about publishers looking for western stories?

Yeah, we all love our westerns and decry their decline ... but while the other types of books are being published by the mega-thousands, where are the westerns? Check out your closest Barnes & Noble ... small shelf space to Roy and Gene's world.

But I'll keep writing them long as my publisher will keep taking them ... an oddity, I believe (him, not me!)
 

dub

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Hope y'all don't mind an oddball interloper. I have written a little western fiction - essays, and have started a stereotypical novel, for no other reason than I was enjoying it. Recently, I entered a "cowboy story" in a Christian writer's contest - the prompt was "Historical."

The American West - The Cowboy era, genrally accepted to be 1820-1890 (Saffel. Cowboy Poetry), was a very special and unique part of U.S. history. I think, we as writers, need to find a way to bring that time into the forefront of the reading public. Lonesome Dove was wonderful, but what epic have we had since? Broke Back Mountain? Shessssh...

Good discussion, will check back later.

dub
 
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JeanneTGC

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Lonesome Dove was wonderful, but what epic have we had since?
Working on it, working on it.

I just got a rejection -- a personal one! -- insinuating that my novel set in the Old West would be better with a large agency (at least, that's how I'm choosing to interpret it, and no one's allowed to rob me of that illusion).

Really, it'll just take those of us who are still writing epics set in the West to "hit" and then, like every other supposedly dead genre, it'll be back.

If the "styles" from the '70s could come back, I believe that ANYthing can come back.
 

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I've got one or two in the works as well, both focusing on the Frontier Army. They aren't ready to submit yet, but I'm kinda aiming for the readers who used to buy Terry Johnston's Plainsman series. I don't write like him, but his sales do demonstrate that there are folks out there who like to read stuff set during this period and with this kind of focus. It's not all I do from that period (obviously), but I'm trying to increase my chances by covering a couple of varieties of Western.
 

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'Westerns' is not my thing, really, but I've noticed that the mystery magazines, specifically "Alfred Hitchcock's" and probably 'Ellery Queen', have run quite a few Western-setting mysteries in the last little while.I've enjoyed them, but they haven't inspired me to go looking for Western books. I have to say, when I think 'Western' I think 'tall, silent stranger comes in and cleans up town'. And all the series titles mentioned here make me suspect that it's all just more of the same. I don't know what it would take to get me to read Westerns, but I haven't seen it yet.
 

JeanneTGC

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'Westerns' is not my thing, really, but I've noticed that the mystery magazines, specifically "Alfred Hitchcock's" and probably 'Ellery Queen', have run quite a few Western-setting mysteries in the last little while.I've enjoyed them, but they haven't inspired me to go looking for Western books. I have to say, when I think 'Western' I think 'tall, silent stranger comes in and cleans up town'. And all the series titles mentioned here make me suspect that it's all just more of the same. I don't know what it would take to get me to read Westerns, but I haven't seen it yet.
Have you read anything by McMurtry? Just curious, really. :)
 

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I think westerns peaked in the twentieth century. I doubt that they will ever come back to what they were during the 50's, 60's and 70's of the last century. They aren't dead, but they are not popular either. I think that growing up when I did, with all the western movies and heroes, made them more popular during that period. When I was a kid, I used to go to the movies every Saturday for the double feature and one was always a western with heroes like Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, Johnny Mack Brown, Alan Rocky Lane, Rex Allen, Shamrock Ellison, Hopalong Cassidy, Lash Larue, Whip Wilson, The Durango Kid, The Cisco Kid, Eddie Dean, and of course, John Wayne. Kids today aren't seeing all those heroes on horses, so their interests are not going to be influenced by all the good guys shooting it out with the bad guys while riding horses.
 

sidekick

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I was glad to see you mention rodeos. It has been a part of my life fer more than fifty years. I have finished my memiors and am seeking an agent now. the title of my book will be Bionic Bull Rider, which has to do with me making medical history due to a bull riding accident. The Orlando Sentinnel wrote an articl on me and it was titled bionic bull rider. this is where I got the idea for the title of my book. It begins when I was a nine year old boy growing up in Michigan and becoming a pro rodeo cowboy. Anyways I am always glad when someone mentions rodeo.

Barry
 

JeanneTGC

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Cav Guy
I was glad to see you mention rodeos. It has been a part of my life fer more than fifty years. I have finished my memiors and am seeking an agent now. the title of my book will be Bionic Bull Rider, which has to do with me making medical history due to a bull riding accident. The Orlando Sentinnel wrote an articl on me and it was titled bionic bull rider. this is where I got the idea for the title of my book. It begins when I was a nine year old boy growing up in Michigan and becoming a pro rodeo cowboy. Anyways I am always glad when someone mentions rodeo.

Barry
Welcome, sidekick. Totally intriguing title -- can't wait to read the book!
 

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I disagree, respectfully but firmly\


I've heard the urbanization argument before, but I don't completely buy into it. It has an impact, to be sure, but at the same time it can also create a longing for that escape. I would tend to point more at the increasing ignorance of most Americans of their own history as a contributing factor.

Ignorance of American history is indeed a likely factor - I am appalled at how little the average citizen knows about history (and often not as distant as the days of the Old West) but I agree with James on urbanization.

I lived in the country - after marrying a country boy - for twelve years and this year moved back into town. Living in the country - even though our home was literally in the woods, wooded all around and not open for cultivation - was not so very different. Television and of course the world wide web brought the world to my doorstep, a far cry from the days not so long ago when living in a rural area meant you were very isolated.

And, piggybacked onto ignorance about history is the fact that so many modern folks today have no idea how to do things like build a fire from nothing, dress game (or even a chicken) and other now vintage things. They have not done it; they have not even seen it done and have no interest in it.

Add to that the growing anti-gun climate and you can see why traditional Westerns are not as popular as they once were. When you have a number of folks very opposed to any type of firearms, they are not likely to read about a hero blazing away with his six guns!
 

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Howdy. I'm a girl and I like Westerns. (That's even my NaNo story this year - YAY!) Some thoughts from the peanut gallery ...

Finally, you have the growth of the "Adult Western" in the 1980s and the lack of a strong, prolific successor to L'Amour. Many factors, all leading up to what we see today.

I ran into one of those one time - I never slammed a book shut so fast in my life! If I wanted to read that, I'd pick up a Romance. just sayin'. It put me off Westerns for quite a while because I didn't want to run into it again.

I'm not saying it's not right to write - but warning labels would be nice. That's not why I read Westerns and for me, it detracts from the book. Believe me when I tell you that I'm not a prude. It's just that to me sex is not a spectator sport. ahem.



That gave me a pause. Are there more CW books due to a genuine interest in 'em, or because there's a lack of westerns and many CW fans I've met are also westerns fans. So, IMO, they're flocking to the new market and propagating it.............making westerns slide back a bit further.

Does that make sense?

I've notice that myself. There are a lot of Civil War buffs out there. My neighbor is one and he doesn't even read! But he is fascinated with the era and the conflict itself.

Personally, I'm not quite so fond of it. I've read a few and some I even liked but they don't call to me for some reason.

Right here, for a start. I'm female. :D And I know a number of women who like and read westerns -- both fiction and non-fiction.

YAY! I'm not all by myself out here!

But today's writers surely share that more sophisticated taste, so why have westerns dwindled instead of growing into a more complex form and maintaining their popularity? Mysteries, for instance, have gained sophistication over the decades and developed a number of niches to appeal to all tastes. Why hasn't the western done the same?

I have to agree with some of James' comments. Westerns have to have some authenticity or people won't buy it - the book, the story, the premise.

Mysteries and thrillers, all writing, really, borrow from real life so if you're trying to be authentically Western you only have a narrow range to draw from for your material. Things were how they were and it can't evolve because that period in history is over.

In my mind, that means the story either has to be a great story - different somehow - or - it has to be seriously character driven. The characters not only have to leap off the page in 3D, your reader has to identify with the character so very strongly. They want to be that character or ... well. anyway.



Part of the appeal of the Western (historical or traditional) is the escapist element in it.

I have to agree with you on that. Absolutely. When I was going through a particularly difficult time in my life, my Louis L'Amour collection saved my sanity. I read his books over and over and over. Some of them I've read five and six times.

<shrug> Maybe because the good guy always wins in the end. I'm not sure really but I always felt better while reading them

I've heard the urbanization argument before, but I don't completely buy into it. It has an impact, to be sure, but at the same time it can also create a longing for that escape. I would tend to point more at the increasing ignorance of most Americans of their own history as a contributing factor.

Yes and No and one other thing. Those times are over and if you wish you lived in those times it's possible reading about them make you feel worse because they will never exist for you. We've lost something that (probably) won't be coming back. YMMV.

Human beings tend to romanticize history. We remember the good things and forget about the really bad things.

I suppose I could get really philosophical and talk about how there are no battles for men to fight and how are they going to prove to themselves that they are men without those battles but I won't.

:D