A Problem with Christian Plots

GordonJerome said:

I disagree: T.L. Hines has written a good book. He's got a great idea, and his book is an interesting page-turner. My guess is that he's a bestseller in Christian circles. If it wasn't good, I wouldn't care as much as I do about the subject. I would have just written it off.

I think you're comparing apples and oranges here.

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You'd be wrong; those are books with Christ as a central character.

Siddow said:

Does anyone else just read the first couple of sentences of GJ's posts, and then go straight to the replies?

Is it just me?

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Ditto. It's pointless to read the rest because he words things for maximum baiting potential.

I wonder if Mr. Hines will weigh in on the subject since he is a member here?

Medievalist said:

Or Chistopher Moore's very very funny (and probably offensive to many Christians) Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal.

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A fabulous and funny read! Christopher Moore is on my auto-buy list.

I don't get how this is about novel writing. Does the OP want to write a Christian novel?

GordonJerome said:

A book about that would work, because God is removed from the story that way.

I think it's the very nature of fiction that's the problem. God is real, Jesus Christ is real, fiction is not real. Fiction is made up. God, in fact, is the source or reality, so it's like it ruins the "fiction" of the story. The story becomes a Bible story, like a Gospel. God is too true for fiction.

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Gee Gordon, I wish you'd explain that to Milton.

I'm sure he had no idea.

I still don't see why it's any more difficult than including any other real character in a book, which is done all the time. Your question seemed to be more that there would be an expectation that God should solve all the problems with a wave of his divine magic wand, which would hobble the work. I would suggest that is more a problem with a reader's foolish expectations, not something inherently inimical to fiction.

GordonJerome said:

If you all are so upset that I posted, move it to TIO. I don't care anymore. It's a literary topic about what works in fiction and what doesn't. If this is going to draw a hundred replies with 75% of them immature ad hominem attacks aimed at me personally, then I don't even want to participate in the discussion I started. I'd just assume the management deleted the whole string.

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Yeah, you have a point. There's been more than a bit of unfair baiting on this thread.

Judg said:

Yeah, you have a point. There's been more than a bit of unfair baiting on this thread.

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Oh, Jesus H. Christ. I hope this is sarcasm, Judg.

GJ is a glory hound. He looks to shock, then whines and expresses indignance toward receiving the glory he sought in the first place.

Damnit, what is this my fourth or fifth post? I'm perpetuating the madness.

For me, here it is in a nutshell. GJ, our culture was founded on christianity. Every culture we erase, we rebuild with christianity. I'd venture to say that the vast majority of published works out there, are loosely based on our ingrained culture, i.e., christianity. Yes...Jesus, God, whoever the hell you wish, does naturally belong in fiction. This is not a dense philisophical question that the OP has raised. It is ridiculous, absurd, and slightly comical.

Not if it were well done. That's a risk you run whenever you introduce a character from reality into a work of fiction. And there will always be a chorus of people saying, "No, that's not the way he/she is/was."

I think you're entirely right that you are introducing an extra layer of complexity. I don't buy that it dissolves fiction, but it is definitely a challenge to do it well. This may be part of the reason that I've read so little "inspirational" fiction. I haven't often seen it done well.

Judg said:

Actually Gordon, anybody who has been a Christian for any length of time has had to grapple with the issue of unanswered prayer. All of our experience tells us that God refuses to be a divine vending machine of ready-made solutions. I really don't see how that sabotages any fiction. I haven't read very many explicitly Christian novels, but those often tackle the issue head on. Stop prejudging the book and finish it. I haven't read it, but I suspect it will supply the answer itself.

While you're at it, read the story of Joseph in Genesis, with the same question in mind.

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I would agree with you, definitely. An unanswered prayer could be *HOW* God is "solving" the plot. All along the characters are asking God to do X, Y, and Z, and when he doesn't, the characters have to work it out for themselves, all realizing that God helped them become stronger by not answering their prayers. Or something like tht.

I don't read Christian fiction, nor am I a Christian, but I fail to see how Christian fiction is any less feasible than the use of gods/goddesses in the stories of Greek/Roman mythology.

GordonJerome said:

If you all are so upset that I posted, move it to TIO. I don't care anymore. It's a literary topic about what works in fiction and what doesn't. If this is going to draw a hundred replies with 75% of them immature ad hominem attacks aimed at me personally, then I don't even want to participate in the discussion I started. I'd just assume the management deleted the whole string.

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Gordon

Here's the problem; and it's one that's common in a lot of people's posts.

You make an unsubstantiated assertion:

GordonJerome said:

Christ and God don't fit in fiction. They dissolve the plot, sure as gasoline dissolves a styrofoam cup.

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You base this assertion on the experience of reading a single novel, by a single author who is know for very specific sorts of writing, from a niche publisher.

You say it's a good book--and then you say that you can't finish it; that's a contradiction in terms.

You then make some more assertions that, well, they're exceedingly naive in terms of basic Christian theology.

Finally, to assert that "T.L. Hines is a great writer," well . . . no, I'm sorry. That's just obscenely wrong. T. L. Hines writes fiction that fits a very very specific niche, for a very very specific audience. It's not great literature.

To say "I really like T. L. Hines," that's a very different thing, as is "I think T. L. Hines is great because . . ." you're asserting a very specific literary status.

You need to support assertions with specific evidence in the form of analysis; you do present "examples," sort of hypothetical plot elements, but that's less than effective because there are just as many counter examples -- and you don't really ever deal with your primary assertion.

I'm not a fan of personal attacks, Lyx. I don't see any point in discussing the character or perceived motivations of any poster. I have serious misgivings about some people and their motivations around here, but I keep them to myself because it serves absolutely nothing to fling them around. This is supposed to be a board devoted to discussing writing, not other contributors and their faults, real or imagined.

GordonJerome said:

Actually, the problem may not have anything to do with God or Jesus pe se. What if there was a completely fictional work that featured George W. Bush as President and he was interacting in the story?

The reality of George Bush would sabotage the designed cause and effect of the fiction, wouldn't it?

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Absolutely not. Plenty of fiction has been written containing real people. Sara Douglass' "Crucible" series contains numerous references to -- and not-just-cameo appearances by -- real peoplein 14th century Europe, including at least one pope and Joan of Arc, as well as the Archangel Michael, if I'm remembering correctly. The story (book 1, anyway -- haven't read the rest) is very well-written, and the presence of real people just enhances it. (And Douglass does take a few liberties with the historical accuracy -- it's painstakingly researched, but she makes no bones about the fact that she changes things to fit the story...but it's fiction, not a history textbook, and it WORKS. BEAUTIFULLY.)

Judg said:

I'm not a fan of personal attacks, Lyx. I don't see any point in discussing the character or perceived motivations of any poster. I have serious misgivings about some people and their motivations around here, but I keep them to myself because it serves absolutely nothing to fling them around. This is supposed to be a board devoted to discussing writing, not other contributors and their faults, real or imagined.

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Fair enough, I can respect all that you've said.

GordonJerome said:

Actually, the problem may not have anything to do with God or Jesus pe se. What if there was a completely fictional work that featured George W. Bush as President and he was interacting in the story?

The reality of George Bush would sabotage the designed cause and effect of the fiction, wouldn't it?

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I occasionally read some Christian-themed suspense stuff, just because I tend to read pretty widely in the suspense genre. I haven't ever read a book where God/Jesus are characters or interacted directly with the characters in the novel, other than having a presence in terms of theme, or questions of faith, or biblical discussions or whatever.

For people of faith, I think the questions of "why did God allow this to happen?" are the types of questions that are asked quite often. It's only natural to perhaps ask these questions when reading a novel or actually have these questions voiced by characters. I really don't see the issue with having religious themes in books. After all, you don't get much bigger in terms of themes than questions around God, faith, etc.

It's not like the Judo-Christian God is going to come along and start tossing thunderbolts and visibly/obviously changing reality and the course of people's lives, unless the novel was comic or surreal or whatever.

(would be nice if this thread didn't degenerate into mudslinging or debates on the existence of God, since I think the original question is sort of interesting--though my impression is that the OP is simply thinking too hard)

There are more white keys on a piano than black ones.

Whoever invented the piano obviously believed the white race to be superior and more deserving.

Before we tackle God, Jesus and Angels I say we burn all the pianos.

Let the cleansing begin.

Sage said:

In the Christianity-influenced fiction I've seen (in movies, not novels, to be clear), this is exactly how I've seen those type of stories work out.

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Ditto here.

"Bruce Almighty", anyone?

Lyxdeslic said:

Damnit, I can't take my own advice.

God shouldn't be allowed in fiction, you say? Hmmn! I was under the impression that he already was -- the Bible. Best selling fiction book of all time, no?

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Insulting the holy book of millions of people isn't the best way to make your point. I find such more offensive than anything Gordon's ever said.