regarding 3rd person objective pov

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Cory Graham

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Hi guys, this is my first post.
I wrote my first novel over two years ago and since been reworking/editing etc. Most of my rewrites were done in third person limited pov, however I've felt like it's been missing something. Anyways, I'm trying to write a verson in the objective pov. I know this is a hard and daunting way to go, but I want to give it a shot. The question is, I feel like I'm missing something and not totally grasping the idea.

I have searched the forum but still feel I haven't found enough info to answer my questions. Here are two short examples, one descriptive and one with dialogue.. Any tips and guidance would be great. Thanks.

“Selene,” Forrest yelled. “Selene!” The evanescent aura of tits and attitude neither strayed nor slowed but continued away from the young man’s cry. Lips tensed, he rubbed his cheek with his left fingertips and followed behind along the platform walk.
The scene, incredibly dense and depressing, was barren. The station’s podium had been transformed into a frozen picturesque still of Hell. Late afternoon fog had come in from the bay, bringing salt and cold rain. A few Amtrak employees moved about but the weather had kept the remaining farewells and well-wishers inside, even smokers onboard the train.

AND...

“What’s so funny?” she asked. He shifted his body away from the train and shrugged, the smile gone.
“Nothing, well...” Again his lip curled. “The train looks funny, that’s all.”
“What?”
“It looks like a giant piece of silver shit or something.”
“Grow up Forrest.”
“Oh for the love of God, chill out.” The expression on his face went from comical to blank. “Christ, I didn’t know the words I said would hurt so much.”
“Learn to think before you speak.”
“Well, you didn’t have to slap me.”
“What did you expect?” she said, her face placid. Her eyebrows resembled little black, upside down crescent moons. She then turned her gaze and adjusted her slim-fitted long coat, fastening a button that had come loose. The yellow, double-breasted coat flared down to her knees. She appeared sophisticated and sharp.
 

maestrowork

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I'll try.

Cory Graham said:
“Selene,” Forrest yelled. “Selene!” The evanescent aura of tits and attitude neither strayed nor slowed but continued away from the young man’s cry. Lips tensed, he rubbed his cheek with his left fingertips and followed behind along the platform walk.
The scene, incredibly dense and depressing, was barren. The station’s podium had been transformed into a frozen picturesque still of Hell. Late afternoon fog had come in from the bay, bringing salt and cold rain. A few Amtrak employees moved about but the weather had kept the remaining farewells and well-wishers inside, even smokers onboard the train.

AND...

“What’s so funny?” she asked. He shifted his body away from the train and shrugged, the smile gone.
“Nothing, well...” Again his lip curled. “The train looks funny, that’s all.”
“What?”
“It looks like a giant piece of silver shit or something.”
“Grow up Forrest.”
“Oh for the love of God, chill out.” The expression on his face went from comical to blank. “Christ, I didn’t know the words I said would hurt so much.”
“Learn to think before you speak.”
“Well, you didn’t have to slap me.”
“What did you expect?” she said, her face placid. Her eyebrows resembled little black, upside down crescent moons. She then turned her gaze and adjusted her slim-fitted long coat, fastening a button that had come loose. The yellow, double-breasted coat flared down to her knees. She appeared sophisticated and sharp.

For me, 3rd objective relies on the fact that the narrative only reports on the visuals, but like a camera. Cameras don't personalize these observations. So, the highlighted texts such as "dense" and "depressing" are narrative commentaries which, I think, do not belong in 3rd objective. They're either a narrative judgement, or at least too much telling and not enough showing. Don't tell me it's dense or depressing or a frozen still of Hell -- show me in objective details and let the readers make their own judgement.
 

JanDarby

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I'm not sure what your question is.

And I'm not sure what "third objective" is. The terms I know are "third limited" and "third omniscient." You seem to be aiming for a camera-view sort of presentation, all external, which just makes me wonder why.

Visual media CAN'T get inside heads and hearts, and have to present everything visually (only theoretically objectively), and they work a little differently from novels. Novels can't show the reader a literal picture, but they have the advantage of being able to go inside heads/hearts, so why wouldn't you take advantage of that storytelling tool?

By writing an entirely external picture (mimicking tv/movies), but without the advantage of actors adding their nuances (faces, body language, tone of voice), you've given up the advantages of the written form (internal information), and can't rely on the advantages of the visual form (the actors' presentation).

For me, at least, the excerpts you have are extremely distant and unemotional. Description, in the abstract, tends to be meaningless. What matters is the POV character's (or omniscient narrator's) impression of the thing that's being described. So, if you have a character who's in a bad mood, he could see a station full of people and still consider it barren and depressing. If the description is "objective," however, why would we care what it looks like? Maybe a quick image to set the stage, but not a lengthy treatise on the station. What we care about is what the pov character (or omniscient narrator) sees, and how that affects the character and his/her decisions and mood.

For the second excerpt, I had trouble following who was speaking. (Minor nitpick: the second sentence, about him shifting away from the train should be a separate paragraph, or combined with the dialogue he speaks after that.) And I didn't have a clue what either character was feeling -- changing from smiling to not smiling to smiling and going blank don't really tell me anything significant, b/c there could be any number of reasons for those changes.

Then, you end that section with more description:
The yellow, double-breasted coat flared down to her knees. She appeared sophisticated and sharp.
First, why should I care what she's wearing? Second, you're basically telling the reader "she's sophisticated and sharp" (or at least she appears that way), and the stubborn reader is going to think, "Says who?" Because that's the thing with an "objective" view -- there's no such thing as an objective view. What looks sophisticated and sharp to one person looks just the tiniest bit behind the times to an avant garde person and looks outrageous to a fuddy-duddy like me and is completely invisible to someone who's fashion-oblivious.

I guess I just have problems with the whole idea that there can be an "objective" view in fiction. I'm not being purely, nihilstically relativist here, but I can't think of anything that could truly be said to be "objective" in a narrative. Perhaps something like "the sun rose." If you could only make such simple statements, the story would get dull pretty fast. But as soon as you write anything that expands on that -- "the sun rose in a glorious mix of colors" -- it becomes subjective. Glorious to whom? To a blind person? To a color-blind person? To someone in a depression? To someone whose family member just died, and the sun seems to be mocking them with the suggestion that life goes on? When you add the adjectives, you introduce a person who has judged the sunrise to be glorious and colorful, and the statement is no longer objective.

I'm gathering that what you really want to write is third omniscient, and while that's not my favorite POV, and I think it's got a number of drawbacks in most genres, at least it's not objective. It's full-on, gloriously, wildly, colorfully, adamantly subjective. It shouts "this is the way I, the narrator, view the world, and I want you to see it the way I do." It's not even remotely invisible, which is what you seem to be aiming for in these excerpts. SO, if you haven't tried omniscient pov, try it -- establish a narrator's POV and get inside the characters' heads/hearts as appropriate and revel in the opinions and subjectivity.

Anyway, just my rant for the day. Fiction is not objective. If you're going to be objective, write news stories or legal contracts (which, actually, aren't as objective as one might think, and I should be working on some right now, but I'd rather rant). If you're going to write fiction, then revel in the subjectivitiy and individuality and personality.

JD
 

Cory Graham

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Thank you both for your comments. However JD, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Third person objective point of view is a form of fiction, albeit a rare one in which most people no longer use. Just do a quick google search for the definition and you should find some info regarding that.

I understand by my excerpts that you really have no clue what's going on, but my question isn't about the story but whether I'm writing in the correct pov. I totally agree with both your comments on how I described her look. This is more subjective.

I've rewritten this story over and over, mainly in third-omni and limited, however I haven't felt like I've achieved the 'effect' I'm going for. With my theme and subject matter I think this perspective would be appropriate and allow the reader to determine what they think and feel about the characters and issue in my story.

Sorry for this jumbled reply, it's just I'm trying to grasp the concept the best I can and there doesn't seem to be very much info other than the basic definition and such. I would very much like to hear more comments on this pov. Thanks.

Cory
 

maestrowork

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Hemingway has written one work entirely in third objective, I think. Unfortunately, I can't remember what it was. You may want to check it out, though, and see how he did it. Basically, cut out anything that is subjective (mostly adjectives and adverbs): "beautiful, sophisticated, depressing..." and stick with nouns, verbs and the five senses.
 
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JanDarby

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Okay, I googled it, and on the first page of hits, I found the wikipedia entry, a few places I've never heard of and one university site that listed it. The wikipedia entry noted that it was mostly used for JOURNALISM, and I think it was the university site that referenced Hemingway and 3 or 4 other examples. Apparently, it is a valid theoretical POV,and I apologize for thinking it was another insanity-inducing oxymoron like "third limited omniscient."

Third limited objective is a valid POV (perhaps; you've gotta wonder why, in the history of fiction, it's been used with any success only five or so times).

Perhaps it would help if you could explain what you're trying to accomplish, b/c that's what I don't get. Not just that I found the excerpts hard to follow out of context, but what is the ADVANTAGE of only telling me, the reader, what's on the surface? How does that make the reader's experience better?

I'm guessing that the key is in the difference between journalism, where in theory they do strive for the objective POV (although we all know that's just an illusion), and fiction, where objectivity is just not a consideration usually. Why is the illusion of objectivity critical to your story? How will it make the story better for the reader?

It may be just me -- it often is -- but I just don't see the point.

JD
 

Jamesaritchie

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Hemingway

maestrowork said:
Hemingway has written one work entirely in third objective, I think. Unfortunately, I can't remember what it was. You may want to check it out, though, and see how he did it. Basically, cut out anything that is subjective (mostly adjectives and adverbs): "beautiful, sophisticated, depressing..." and stick with nouns, verbs and the five senses.

"Hills Like White Elephants." http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~conreys/101files/Otherfolders/Hillslikewhitepg.html
 

Jamesaritchie

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Objective

I'm very fond of the objective viewpoint, which is sometimes called "dramatic" POV. It's tough to pull off because you're never allowed to get inside anyone's head, including the narrator's. When done well, however, it's a very powerful POV.

It's more like a stage play than TV or the movies. Voice over does allow the viewer to get inside a character's head in both TV and the movies, but in a stage play, this is rare.

I think the trick is to first just write it, and then try to get all the details accurate in the next draft. It's so easy to slip out of objective viewpoint that I think trying too hard to be consistent in the first draft can be counterproductive.
 

Jamesaritchie

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JanDarby said:
I'm guessing that the key is in the difference between journalism, where in theory they do strive for the objective POV (although we all know that's just an illusion), and fiction, where objectivity is just not a consideration usually. Why is the illusion of objectivity critical to your story? How will it make the story better for the reader?

It may be just me -- it often is -- but I just don't see the point.

JD

I'm not sure why Wikipedia would pull journalism into it. A journalist tries to be objective, but that's not really what's meant by objective POV in fiction. In journalism, it's the reporter who tries to be objective. The objective POV in fiction, probably better understood as "Dramatic POV," from writing stage Drama, means only that you never go inside a character's head. You have to tell the story as a member of the stage audience sees it acted on the stage. In fictional objective, all the characters are also "objective," in that the reader doesn't have a clue what any of them are thinking except by their outward actions.

Objective, or dramatic, POV is nearly always used in stage plays, used extremely often in TV and movie scripts, and is frequently used in short stories.

It's seldom used in novels because few writers can carry it out in novel length fiction, and because, frankly, darned few novelists even know what it is.

The point is the same as a stage play, to tell a story without letting subjectivity get in the way, without having opinion get in the way, to show the whole story exactly as real life is seen by a casual bystander.

When done correctly, its a very powerful POV, and one more writers should experiment with. But journalism has nothing to do with it.
 
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PeeDee

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How interesting. I fall, I'm afraid, into the category of writers who had no idea what this was until I read this thread. Now, I'm intruiged enough that I wouldn't mind trying it at all.
 

Cory Graham

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Yes, I think I do need to just write it and deal with the finer points/details in the next draft. So far I've written chapter one in objective, however the more I work on it the easier it is for me and I'm begining to really enjoy it and have fun. The hard part is to try and ignore the use of adj. and adverbs.

I'm choosing to go this way, right now, because it is a different style and not common. Who knows if it will be publishable or not, but the feedback I received from agents/editors when I did submit it in 3rd limited pov was the story wasn't marketable enough. I'm not frustrated but I'm certain after this attempt I'm going to shelf the project and start on something new.
 

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I'm reading The Crossing by Cormac McCarthy. As far as I know, the first third objective novel I've read. Not a big fan of the novel but I am fascinated by the style. An earlier comment upthread, "but what is the ADVANTAGE of only telling me, the reader, what's on the surface?" In my mind that is the advantage, zero telling, all showing.
 

blacbird

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A really good example of third-objective is Shirley Jackson's famous story "The Lottery".

And third-objective might not be the most common of narrative styles today, but it's still around and being used.

The prose examples in the OP aren't even close to being third-objective. Waaaaay too much authorial interpretation:

The scene, incredibly dense and depressing, was barren.

"Incredibly dense and depressing" . . . to whom? That's not objective viewpoint. It is a classic example of bad "telling" rather than "showing". If you want to give the reader an impression of "depressing", describe the scene in such a way that conveys a sense of bleakness, don't just tell the reader what that impression should evoke emotionally. And I don't have a clue what a "dense" scene is.

Not to mention being badly overwritten:

The evanescent aura of tits and attitude neither strayed nor slowed but continued away from the young man’s cry.

caw
 
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Graz

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A really good example of third-objective is Shirley Jackson's famous story "The Lottery".

And third-objective might not be the most common of narrative styles today, but it's still around and being used.

The prose examples in the OP aren't even close to being third-objective. Waaaaay too much authorial interpretation:



"Incredibly dense and depressing" . . . to whom? That's not objective viewpoint. It is a classic example of bad "telling" rather than "showing". If you want to give the reader an impression of "depressing", describe the scene in such a way that conveys a sense of bleakness, don't just tell the reader what that impression should evoke emotionally. And I don't have a clue what a "dense" scene is.

Not to mention being badly overwritten:



caw



Haven't read The Lottery or Hemingway's Hills Like White Elephants mentioned up thread. Both might be next on my list. It seems that a story with alot of action, movement of any kind, would help in writing effectively in this POV.
 

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Haven't read The Lottery or Hemingway's Hills Like White Elephants mentioned up thread. Both might be next on my list. It seems that a story with alot of action, movement of any kind, would help in writing effectively in this POV.
Ya wanna novel with alot of action or movement of any kind? How about a hard-boiled detective novel? :D

You could check out Dashiell Hammett's The Maltese Falcon, as it is in third Person and it uses an objective narrator. That story is a classic for that type of story POV -- objective narrator 3rd person Point-Of-View -- and for that genre -- hard-boiled detective.

An excerpt from a Wikipedia page: The_Maltese_Falcon_(novel)
The writing style is unusual in that the reader is told what each character does and says, but no-one's inner thoughts are ever revealed.

A Wikipedia page on the hard-boiled genre: Hardboiled
 

Graz

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Ya wanna novel with alot of action or movement of any kind? How about a hard-boiled detective novel? :D

You could check out Dashiell Hammett's The Maltese Falcon, as it is in third Person and it uses an objective narrator. That story is a classic for that type of story POV -- objective narrator 3rd person Point-Of-View -- and for that genre -- hard-boiled detective.

An excerpt from a Wikipedia page: The_Maltese_Falcon_(novel)


A Wikipedia page on the hard-boiled genre: Hardboiled


Read that and his "Thin Man" series years ago when I couldn't define POV. They are very well written.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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Also Hammett's The Glass Key. I just read this and was really confused because at one point a scene opens with the protagonist beside a dead body. Did he kill the guy, or just find him? There's absolutely no way to know, as Hammett only describes externals. We have to figure it out gradually from what we're shown, and the MC is highly morally ambiguous.

It was frustrating, but kind of brilliant at the same time. To get to that level, you need to make your narrating voice as neutral and transparent as possible, which means cutting virtually all color and cleverness. I kind of like "an evanescent aura of tits and attitude," because it calls up a strong image (unlike the description of her as "sophisticated and sharp," which is too generic, and the clothing description has already shown that anyway). But that is a narrator with tons of personality, a narrator who has his own attitude, not a transparent, objective narrator.

To be honest, I don't think a narrator can be 100 percent objective, even in reporting, but some writers like Hammett create a decent illusion of it. In journalism, we cut anything we see as "editorializing," i.e., adding your [the writer's] opinion or commentary. But opinion can take a million forms; the facets of a person you choose to describe ("tits and attitude") are based on opinion. When a reporter describes a source as "shifty-eyed" or "open-faced," that is opinion. Describing a scene or place as "depressing" is definitely opinion. So, yeah, cutting all that out is pretty hard.
 

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The frame-story portions of The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss are written in third objective. It's like watching a movie; you don't get the characters' thoughts at all. Nor do you get narratorial commentary. You see what the camera sees, without interpretation. That was my impression of it, anyway, though it's been a while since I've read it.

Cory, in your examples there are instances where it's obvious the POV is being filtered through someone's eyes. The "camera" is not objective; it's drawing conclusions about what it sees.

For example:

The evanescent aura of tits and attitude

The station’s podium had been transformed into a frozen picturesque still of Hell.

She appeared sophisticated and sharp.

As I understand it, the objective POV can only describe what it sees. It can't make judgments or draw conclusions.
 

Josie Cloos

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The frame-story portions of The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss are written in third objective. It's like watching a movie; you don't get the characters' thoughts at all. Nor do you get narratorial commentary. You see what the camera sees, without interpretation. That was my impression of it, anyway, though it's been a while since I've read it.

Cory, in your examples there are instances where it's obvious the POV is being filtered through someone's eyes. The "camera" is not objective; it's drawing conclusions about what it sees.

For example:

The evanescent aura of tits and attitude

The station’s podium had been transformed into a frozen picturesque still of Hell.

She appeared sophisticated and sharp.

As I understand it, the objective POV can only describe what it sees. It can't make judgments or draw conclusions.

This is also my understanding. I'm not so sure this part is objective either: but the weather had kept the remaining farewells and well-wishers inside, even smokers onboard the train.

To me, and maybe it is just me, this sentence is more logical conclusion than an objective observation. Though the smokers thing is neither. There is nothing that shows that anyone is a smoker.

Something like: people were inside and that's where they stayed. Even the guy who pulled out his cigarette pack from his shirt pocket put them back after looking out the window.

In that example the narrator isn't making any assumptions about people's motivation, it's just telling what it sees. Everyone stayed inside even the guy with the cigarettes. No one is saying why after looking out the window he put his cigarettes back in his pocket, just that he did.

For all anyone knows the guy could have got a gander at one of the Amtrak employees who looked an awful lot like the kid that bullied him all through high school, and that's what made him reconsider-not the rain. But it's not an objective narrators job to tell us these things, whether it's the most logical conclusion based on the current situation or if it's not. At least as I understand it.

I hope you found this helpful.


 

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most of my work jumps from different 3rd person narratives sporadically. My only finished project is first person and it was a bitch to write. The passage of time and transistions can really bog the project down.
 
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