Does the slush pile still live? (old thread)

It lives

It depends a lot on what genre you're writing in. I can't answer for every genre, but I can think of several major houses that still thrive on the slushpile in fantasy--EDGE and TOR for starters. The question is are you willing to wait the length of time it takes for their unpaid interns to wade through the mountains of subs to get to your ms?

Lindo said:

And they are FONTS of mis-information about the market. (As opposed to Hollywood where NOBODY understands the market, but everybody says they do.)

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This sounds like you've had some bad experiences. Care to share?

In my home country, there are plenty of small publishing houses that take unagented manuscripts (or at least queries) from unknown writers. I plan to try for an agent first, and then move to querying small presses. I would like to publish my first novel at home, if possible.

If you want to try for a smaller house, you could probably go without an agent. But you'd need to read the publisher's guidelines carefully before querying.

Quite a few small publishers a few midsized and even a few of the big houses take them. It all depends on what you are trying to submit.

Also when publishers say they won't take unsolicited MSS, often it simply means send a query letter first.

As to the whole agent thing. . . I have responded so often on the topic that I wrote a post about it in my blog, maybe you'd like to check it out: http://ididntchoosethis.blogspot.com/2007/01/15.html

Granted there are lousy agents out there. There are lousy everythings out there. But still.

As to the whole 'series' question, I think most agents AND publishers balk at when they are presented with them because often the author hasn't written a self contained book to begin with, and it is very difficult to sell something when it ends with a cliff hanger AND you are a new writer. Think of all the popular MG series: Harry Potter, A Series of Unfortunate Events, even Eragon. Self contained with the potential for more.

Agents are a useful and helpful part of the industry's machinary. They aren't just some foppish middleman that the publisher uses to pawn off submissions. Yes, they do field submissions, but that's not the same thing. Not at all.

Sorry you don't like agents, but I don't seem them as quite the Bane Of The Industry as you do. I could be convinced either way on the issue, but right now I'm in a happy middle ground that considers agents useful.

For one thing, it means THEY'RE tryingto sell my novel and not me. I have no desire to do that. I barely send my short stories out properly. I'm a writer. Everything beyond that falls into my "Not writing" category and I tend to not do it very well (to my detriment sometimes). I would rather have an agent find my book a home, I would rather the agent negotiate my contract to better advantage to me and them, I would rather the agent do these things.

It's the same as having a publicity department at a publisher. Sure, authors could do it (and therefore, we can call the publicity department a Drain on The Industry) except that the publicists, like the agents, are professionals at their job, are better at it than you and I (me, at least) and I'd rather they do it and arrange things than me having to do it.

Agents are just a part of the industry. It's a mechanism to divide the work and streamline the process, much like copy editors, book designers, typesetters, book marketers, or distributors. They're not doing what they do just to make the writer's life miserable. A good agent serves as the first front, and it helps to match the right publisher with the right manuscript. It doesn't mean you have to use an agent, though. But by not using one, you voluntarily opt out on part of the process, and in turn part of the market. You can't change the system, but it doesn't mean you HAVE to be part of it.

Agents

There are still quite a few small and mid-sized publishers that do not require an agent, but just because a publisher looks at unagented manuscripts does not mean they buy them, and most of the mid-sized and larger houses that say they look at unagented manuscripts darned near never actually buy one. Some have gone years without buying a single manuscript that came in without an agent, and a couple have gone decades.

When an agent doesn't get results, it probably is because of the writer. All any agent can do is place your story in front of an editor. No agent can make him buy it.

And, honestly, darned few, if any publishers, do want a series of books from a new writer. Darned few series ebgin as a series. They begin as a single, standalone novel, and if that novel sells well enough, THEN the publisher asks for a second. Of course publishers want the kind of book that can be truned into a series, if readers liked the first book, but what happens when readers hated the first book? And like it or not, readers are much more likely to hate a first novel than to love it.

I wonder why so many new writers think it's a good idea to start by writing a series? These writers haven't yet proven they can write anything agents, editors, or readers would care a hoot about, but they think it's a good idea to jump in the deep end with a series? First prove you can write one novel anyone thinks is readable. Then worry about a series.

Really, why in God's name do so many new writers think it's a good idea to begin with a series? It makes no sense at all. It's tough enough to break into publishing under teh best of circumstances, so why begin by doing soemthing everyone, agents, editors, and other writers, says will only make it a hundred times harder?

There are some lousy agents out there, just as there are lousy editors, and several million lousy writers trying to attract agents and editors. But bad agents are not usually difficult to spot. They have no track record. Good agents do know what pubishers want, and when an agent tells you publishers usually do not want to see a series from a new writer, you need to believe it. It's about money. Until you prove yourself as a writer, not many publishers are going to risk any more money on you than they have to risk.

It's also true, however, that the right novel at the right time can change this. If you can write something that makes a publisher see dollar signs, all the rules go out the window. But I'll also say I've never seen a new writer get big money for anything unless he had an agent.

It's certainly not impossible to sell a first novel without an agent, especially to a small publisher, because, yes, slush piles do still exist. And they're treated with just as much dread, just as much disdain, as they ever were. And slush piles, too, have gatekeepers, and when it comes to rejecting novels, these gatekeepers make agents and editors look like amateurs.

Seriously, assuming you're dealing with agents who have a proven track record, they DO know what publishers are looking for. Nothing idiotic about what they tell you. An agent who isn't very, very good at knowing what publishers really want is an agent who won't be in business very long.

Series are the "thing" to do right now, ti seems. Fantasy series in particular.

Mostly, published or not, I tend to feel that it's weaker than if you wrote one, two, three solid books and left it at that. Lord of the Rings is effective because it has an End. People may want more lord of the rings......but they don't actually. A good ending leaves people desperately wishing for more, and it does this far better than if you actually GIVE them more.

When I do series, it's as a set of short stories. Perfect medium for it, because I can do all sorts of interesting and completely different things from story to story, on a level that wouldn't work at all if I were doing a series of novels.

These days, particularly with fantasy books, one of the things that hugely impresses me and makes me willing to actually read the author is if there is an end, it's in sight, and it's coming. Be it a solid end to the book, or a solid end to the trilogy.

Endings are very important, and a series delays this important step, too often.

Lindo said:

Thing that keep hitting me is...if I'm going to put up with airs, and with green English majors reading my stuff for somebody else; why not have it be for somebody who pays, rather than somebody who will try to sell?

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If you're putting up with airs and with "green English majors" as agents, then you're querying the wrong agents. I agree with what Pete, JAR, et al., have said.

Oh, also, just so you know, I'm currently finishing my Master's degree in English Literature.

How are they "green English majors" anyway? Are you querying people who done gone and finished Introduction to English 101 Remedial? If you are, that's damn silly.

If they have a Masters (like Birol, who just became my new hero) then that's a lot of years, and alot of hard work and effort and money spent. That's nothing to sneeze at.

It's also no different with an agent than with an author. The English Literature degree is cool, but you don' buy an author or pick an agent based on their education.

Lindo said:

if I'm going to put up with airs, and with green English majors reading my stuff for somebody else; why not have it be for somebody who pays, rather than somebody who will try to sell?

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I have a feeling if the green English major did find something that stood out, he would be rewarded, personally and by his peers, and thus tries hard to find good work.

For some reason, it reminds me of flipping through hundreds of television channels before finding a program that's worth watching. It becomes mechanical, flip, flip, flip, flip and forever flipping, until you find the one show that's worth more than a minute of your time. Then you hope it sustains you throughout the program.

Jamesaritchie said:

And, honestly, darned few, if any publishers, do want a series of books from a new writer. ...
...It's tough enough to break into publishing under teh best of circumstances, so why begin by doing soemthing everyone, agents, editors, and other writers, says will only make it a hundred times harder?

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I'm not sure this holds true for all fields. I have heard from my agent, and others, that for Urban Fantasies and Paranormals, at least, it's quite the opposite and that the series concept is actually a selling point with editors. A successful series will make good money for a publisher. New authors often get two or three book deals. (Although not necessarily a lot of money.)

When I say series, however, I am speaking of standalones that then have sequels using the same characters, not books that don't resolve and end with a cliffhanger.

rugcat said:

I'm not sure this holds true for all fields. I have heard from my agent, and others, that for Urban Fantasies and Paranormals, at least, it's quite the opposite and that the series concept is actually a selling point with editors. A successful series will make good money for a publisher. New authors often get two or three book deals. (Although not necessarily a lot of money.)

When I say series, however, I am speaking of standalones that then have sequels using the same characters, not books that don't resolve and end with a cliffhanger.

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Mine told me to go ahead and get started editing the second book I'd written with my series character, so she could entice editors with the possibility of two books. Mine fall under mystery/thriller, which is another genre with a lot of standalone series books.

I can only speak from my own experience. I have one novel that is being looked at by a major publisher, and it went in without an agent. I also wrote it as a standalone, with two or three possible sequels very roughly outlined. I don't ever need to write those sequels to resolve the first story.

I then wrote another novel, in a different genre, and am revising it. Once that's done it's going to be a third novel that will also stand alone.

It is true that a lot of publishers would love to sell series. Having said that, they want series from someone they know can finish a book. What they don't want is someone with no track record trying to start off with a series when no one knows for sure if they can write a novel.

We recently stopped accepting unsoliciteds. That doesn't mean people stop sending them, or we stop reading them. It just means we can legitimately ignore stuff if we haven't got the time.

My favorite ever was "nobody wants a series of books". Gee, several books that will sell almost automatically to people who liked the first one...they sure wouldn´t want THAT.

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That's not quite fair. One thing that we see loads is someone spreading their efforts over 19 prospective series entries rather than just getting the first book right. They've plotted out a career's worth of books in one submission and the quality suffers. I know several highly successful authors of series fiction, and not one of them has approached things like that; they write one book at a time. (Your mileage may vary.)

New authors often get two or three book deals. (Although not necessarily a lot of money.)

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Not often, at all. You may be thinking of high-profile deals that get into the papers, but those are the exceptions.

For one thing, it means THEY'RE tryingto sell my novel and not me. I have no desire to do that. I barely send my short stories out properly. I'm a writer. Everything beyond that falls into my "Not writing" category and I tend to not do it very well (to my detriment sometimes).

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I agree with this. I'm terrible at the whole submission process, and lack confidence as a sales person. For that reason, I'd far prefer to have an agent, who I know will do it right, and professionally. The catch 22 is that, in order to snag an agent, you have to be very good and professional at the submission process, and be a natural sales person.

sERIES

rugcat said:

I'm not sure this holds true for all fields. I have heard from my agent, and others, that for Urban Fantasies and Paranormals, at least, it's quite the opposite and that the series concept is actually a selling point with editors. A successful series will make good money for a publisher. New authors often get two or three book deals. (Although not necessarily a lot of money.)

When I say series, however, I am speaking of standalones that then have sequels using the same characters, not books that don't resolve and end with a cliffhanger.

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Yes, you're right. Series work great and sell very well. But nearly all series from new writers must have a standalone first novel. New writers are sometimes given two or three book deals, and this is wonderful.

Trouble is, this isn't how too many new writers want to approach it, and isn't how they query it. A series concept that doesn't have a standalone first novel is just too big a risk for a publisher to take for most new writers. Too many new writer plan a long, open-ended series, talk about four or six or ten novels, and then wonder why no one bites.

And a two or three book deal isn't always what many think it is. There's still a standalone first novel, and if the second novel the writer turns in is unacceptable, the publisher does not have to release it, even in a multi-book deal.

In truth, most genre novels can be turned into a series simply by writing more books with the same protagonist. But you have to have the standalone first novel. This lowers the risk greatly, and if it doesn't sell well, the publisher hasn't left readers who did like the novel hanging.

Most series are made because the writer writes a standalone novel, readers love it, and publishers ask for a second novel with the same protagonist.

Write a good, standalone novel, leave room for more novels with the same protagonist, but don't worry about a series, and do not tell an agent or editor there will be five or seven novels in the series. Series take care of themselves and come about because of good sales, not because the new writer bills it as such.

I don't hate agents; I agree with PeeDee in that they handle the ugly business part of publishing so that I don't have to.

What I do hate is the querying process. It's unrealistic to expect a writer to condense their work into a few paragraphs in such a way that they will grab you right from the get go--especially considering that if an agent ask for a sample or the whole manuscript, they're going to stop reading whenever they want to anyway.

I think the work should speak for itself. I send you my manuscript with a cover letter that says "This is my novel (title of novel). It is (word count) words long. Thank you for your time and I look forward to your response." And then I sign my name.

In other words, I rather like the existence of agents. It's the query letter I view as a necessary evil.

engmajor2005 said:

I don't hate agents; I agree with PeeDee in that they handle the ugly business part of publishing so that I don't have to.

What I do hate is the querying process. It's unrealistic to expect a writer to condense their work into a few paragraphs in such a way that they will grab you right from the get go--especially considering that if an agent ask for a sample or the whole manuscript, they're going to stop reading whenever they want to anyway.

I think the work should speak for itself. I send you my manuscript with a cover letter that says "This is my novel (title of novel). It is (word count) words long. Thank you for your time and I look forward to your response." And then I sign my name.

In other words, I rather like the existence of agents. It's the query letter I view as a necessary evil.

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We agree on the query process. As I've often said, the query letter is the professional writer's best friend, and the new writer's worst enemy.

Ditto to what Jamesaritchie and engmajor2005 said. From a newbie standpoint, some novels/plots lend themselves to succinct, snappy descriptions more than others. Some works can have a tag line that sounds compelling even without the nuances that a one-liner omits; others sound blah in a sentence or two because the subtlety of the story doesn't lead to a high-impact marketing phrase.

Some of the best books (and movies) that I've encountered far exceeded the expectations I had based on the tag line.

Jamesaritchie said:

We agree on the query process. As I've often said, the query letter is the professional writer's best friend, and the new writer's worst enemy.

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Only in the last year did I finally feel I had a handle on the query process. And even then, I posted a query in SYW a few weeks ago and the critters pointed out some very obvious problems. The difference is that now I feel I know how to actually fix them.

I'm getting tired of agents. They block up the process and it's not even their money or say-so. And they are FONTS of mis-information about the market.

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I disagree with this. I don't feel they stood in the way of my getting published (obviously, or I wouldn't have spent so long trying to land one), and they definitely know the market better than I do. And all the agents I've dealt with who took the time to explain what they did or did not like about my book (including one who read the book twice before finally declining to offer) made the book a much stronger product.

There's an interview on my blog with a writer who sold to the publisher before he landed an agent. The answer to the first question is especially telling about what it's like to go straight to the publisher.

Jamesaritchie said:

And like it or not, readers are much more likely to hate a first novel than to love it.

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Please forgive my naivete, but why? Is this a statistical sort of thing, or just an impression? No shots being taken here, I'm genuinely curious.