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Thread: The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

  1. #18751
    SeanDSchaffer
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    Red face Passionate N.Y. Lady, I think you put yourself down way too much...

    Quote Originally Posted by Passionate N.Y. Lady
    Someone asked why I donít identify myself. Well, there are many reasons. One being, I am afraid one of you may want to check out my work, and I am ashamed of it. It is so poorly written. There are so many typos, so many misspelled and misused words, itís embarrassing. I still love the story, and Iím sorry I could not do it justice.

    Passionate N.Y. Lady,

    Don't ever feel like you're being required to identify yourself. Like Mem pointed out, your identification is no one's business but your own, unless you want us to know it.

    And I personally think you put your writing down way too much. The posts you've written are very well done. If they are any indication of your written works, I'd say you have a good eye for English.

    Also, differing opinions are what makes a good forum. Were it not for opinionated people, this would not be a forum at all. I hope you understand you're quite welcome here, and not just because you may someday change your mind about PA; but rather because you have something to add to the conversation. Just because you disagree with a lot of us about PublishAmerica, doesn't mean we hate you. In fact, the very opposite is true. I, for one, highly respect you for having the courage to come onto this site and state what you believe to be true. I'd be willing to wager a large majority of the others here would feel the same way.

    So please, feel free to look around and visit with us. You're very welcome to come and say 'hello.'


  2. #18752
    haz a shiny new book cover Christine N.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passionate N.Y. Lady
    First, let me humbly apologize for having offended some of you. I had no right to come in here with both barrels loaded. But, for those of you who were offended, now you know how it feels to have to defend yourselves.
    I don't think you offended anyone. You were well-spoken and not on the defensive. More than I can say for others who have come here. You are more than welcome.

    Someone asked why I donít identify myself. Well, there are many reasons. One being, I am afraid one of you may want to check out my work, and I am ashamed of it. It is so poorly written. There are so many typos, so many misspelled and misused words, itís embarrassing. I still love the story, and Iím sorry I could not do it justice.
    And no one faults you for that. I know I ranted about misused words above, but at least you recognize that you made the mistakes. You won't make them again, I'm sure. Actually, PA probably added a few for you. Not your fault.

    What they have given me, I appreciate, as there is a lesson to be learned in every new undertaking, and Iíve come away with some very valuable ones. Two being, the fundamentals of writing; though I still have a lot to learn, and the pitfalls of having your first work published without doing thorough research.
    At least you learned the lesson. That in itself speaks volumes.


    Do I wish I could turn back the hands of time and do it all differently? Absolutely! Unfortunately, the dye is cast.
    I say the same thing, all the time. And it's "die" not "dye". Dye colors fabric. Not being rude, it's one of those commonly misused words. (I'm a bit of a grammar nazi, it's a character flaw) I think Jenna has a list of them somewhere.

    You're welcome to stay. I'll be sure to throw you a life preserver when the ship finally goes down.
    Christine

    Young Adult Fantasy Author

    A CURSE OF ASH AND IRON: Coming Spring 2015 from Curiosity Quills Press

    "The Watchmaker's Ball" (short story), to be included in BEWARE THE LITTLE WHITE RABBIT (anthology), coming April 14 from Leap Books


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  3. #18753
    practical experience, FTW Tilda's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Christine N.
    But to not know the difference between two words like "sells" and "sales" is just sloppy. I am not making any judgement against the people who write it - most of the authors, both here and at PA, are nice people. I have no doubt that they are, and I feel for many of them. I'm not picking on them personally.

    But I'm with Ed - to be a writer and not know the difference between two words like that is really just... sloppy. I have no other word for it.
    I could not agree with you more, thumbs up for stating it so well!
    I'm a writer, words matter to me. They SHOULD matter to all who aspire to write. If I want to be a published and read author, shouldn't everything I say in public, message board or elsewhere, be written so that it will give a professional image of me? Readers will look for information about authors online, I do it all the time. Imagine a reader finding their way to the PA message board and reading the messages. I'd personally die of shame if my readers found my sloppily spelled messages with a thousand exclamation marks on my publisher's board (not that I personally aim to publish with a publisher that hosts a message board...). That many PA authors don't seem to notice this, speaks volumes, at least to me. Or then I've just begun hearing little voices...
    Ed: please stay, I have enjoyed your posts tremendously. I've always looked forward to reading your daily comments from the PA boards
    NY-lady: welcome, please stay. Nobody here has a grudge towards PA authors, only the publisher itself. We're all dead serious about writing, which is why we care.
    Last edited by Tilda; 04-29-2005 at 06:29 PM.

  4. #18754
    practical experience, FTW MMo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjsiirila
    Thank God I'm only under contract with the first one for 6 more years. Publish America sucks.
    Welcome to the AW board. At times like these, I feel as though I ought to be giving funeral commiserations, because I know the grief and sense of loss has to be similar to a death. Grieve because you must, but know -- your book will rise again, your trilogy will rise again, and your career will rise again. And the folks here at AW will be here for you as you go through this.

    Mo
    Never Moe and certainly not Moe-randa. I had the name first.

  5. #18755
    practical experience, FTW MMo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christine N.
    Ed, get your pickled A s s back here right this minute! *disabling mommy voice*

    I think most of the PA "Words" we use come from authors misspellings. Stipid and spline most assuredly did. Sells instead of sales really gets on my nerves.
    (WITH COPIOUS SNIPS)
    Ed, I wish you'd reconsider. I like your green thingys. They were starting to look like a pickle
    Ditto. I had no problem putting Ed's suggestion into the glossary I'm collecting. That word's misuse has grated on me everytime I've seen it, and it has been (mis)used by more than one poster so it can't be said that we're picking on an individual.

    And who's going to keep us posted on Hamdogs and southernisms and Icees--and Zaz for that matter--if Ed is truly gone?

    Mo
    Last edited by MMo; 04-29-2005 at 07:14 PM.
    Never Moe and certainly not Moe-randa. I had the name first.

  6. #18756
    practical experience, FTW MMo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passionate N.Y. Lady
    WITH SNIPS:
    Someone asked why I donít identify myself. Well, there are many reasons.

    Do I wish I could turn back the hands of time and do it all differently? Absolutely! Unfortunately, the dye is cast.

    But, for the time being, Iíll just stay put a while longer on this sinking ship--as many of you believe we are on. I am not delusional, things may change, and I know thatís just wishful thinking on my part.
    You mean identify yourself like those of us who travel with a screen name and no sig line have?

    I'm afraid too many of us wish we were able to turn back the clock on way too many things. Unfortunately we can't, and so we live with what we've done and learn from it.

    You have to do what seems right for you at the time. Even though you remain silent on this board, I have a feeling we're going to be hearing from you in the future because your posts show all too clearly that you _can_ write. Whether we recognize the work as yours is entirely your call. Good luck.

    Mo
    Last edited by MMo; 04-29-2005 at 07:11 PM.
    Never Moe and certainly not Moe-randa. I had the name first.

  7. #18757
    practical experience, FTW writerjenn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete-awes
    PA has ruined my dream. Thanks for nothing PA.
    DON'T ever let PA do that to you. Sure, they are a pothole in the highway, but the only one who can ruin your dream is you.
    Write another novel (sounds like you did) and find another home for it. You can do it. Just don't give up. And don't let PA steal something from you that they don't deserve.


    Jenn
    Veni, Vidi, Velcro
    I came, I saw, I stuck around.

  8. #18758
    Herb Lady T42's Avatar
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    I have to get my two cents in about the writing abilities! As I have stated many times. I am not a writer like the rest of you. I have many childrenís books and poems I have written but I have not sent them in because I am not a writer! I do it for my own enjoyment. I like to research and that is how my book came about. There are many reasons why a person cannot spell correctly or use words in the right context and I donít think that has anything to do with what is in the mind and heart that needs to be put on paper! I use to be an intelligent lady and I went to college just like many of you. Because of things that happened in my life that I have no control of, I have had to spend many years relearning and I donít and wonít apologize for what I donít know yet or have the capability of grasping. That does not make me an idiot or make me any less than. It is for these reasons that I would hope that a publisher would provide good editing. Let me make it clear that I sent my book in perfect! It was PA that changed things and messed up any spelling or grammar. I think that it is great that many of you know how to use words, spell them correctly and are able to help others with this and I have never taken it as an insult personally. I laugh at myself because I can now. I live in a state where I can make my own words up. (George and I have this in common) My kids and grandbaby love it that I come up with new words everyday or use them incorrectly because I am funny, not an idiot!

    I think that this is a thread about PA and not the authors! But if someone chooses to point something out such as spelling then so be it but letís keep this about Pa. Someone said that we are beginning to sound like the pa threads and I agree!

    THE HERB LADY

  9. #18759
    Take off! Canada James's Avatar
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    "There is nothing foreign to me in human nature"

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanDSchaffer
    But has anyone who looks through the PA boards noticed that the pro-PA people over there say things like "Oh, those bashers, they're a bunch of losers! They don't know anything."
    Unfortunately, Sean, that mentality does exist over here. That's why I continue to try and get AW posters to really think about the wording of their posts, and how it may be construed by a PA author.

    Making fun of PA authors for typos, spelling mistakes, or "living in the land of POZ", does nothing short of foster an "us vs. them" attitude. It upset Bonnie, it upset that recent NY lady, and I'm sure it has upset many others who have not posted.

    Just my two cents.

    CJ
    I have all the answers.
    I just don't know any of the questions...

  10. #18760
    Shakespearean Fool DreamWeaver's Avatar
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    In defense of PA author misspellings on their forum:

    Have you noticed what happens if one of them tries to correct this problem (*...not to be picky, but XXXX should be spelled YYYY...* or *...you said AAAA but I think you meant BBBB...*)? No matter how polite they are, or how much they try to sound helpful instead of nagging, they seem to invariably get slapped down in some manner. Preventing these errors from being corrected isn't helping anyone improve their spelling, IMO.

    If the PA editors won't help the folks who misspell/misuse words, and the general board population won't let other posters help them, how are they ever going to learn? We aren't born knowing the differences between born, borne, and bourne...we have to learn. And we learn by either reading words in their correct usage and context, or by someone pointing out our errors. If the climate doesn't allow error correction, errors will continue.

    And, when they've continued enough, they get funny. I'm sorry, but it's true. It's as true of my spelling errors or of your spelling errors as it is of any PA author's spelling errors. Spelling errors by large entities, such as governmental offices, newspapers, and publishing companies are even funnier because they are (or should be) less common.

    And while I'm on it, thanks to the folks who point out my errors, and thanks for mostly doing it by blob comment or by PM. Do they have those options on the PA boards? I hope so.
    Why doesn't George R. R. Martin use Twitter? He already killed off all 140 characters.

  11. #18761
    Quixote without a cause Jeff's Avatar
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    Ed:

    A sincere and public apology if my post about rep points offended. I am pretty clueless sometimes and don't even feel it when I tread on toes. Whatever is upsetting you, I hope you understand that I did not in any manner mean to add to it.

    Sincerely,

    Jeff
    "We'll move up into the mountains so far that we can't be found..."

  12. #18762
    Legal Authority/Public Intellectual robeiae's Avatar
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    At the risk of offending everyone...

    ...I'm gonna toss my 3 cents in:

    Any reasonably intelligent person who has bothered to read some of this thread would know that the gist of the thread is an attack on PA the company, not on PA the authors (and the fact that many of them actually consider themselves to be some sort of special group is a consequence of the company's nefarious practices).

    I recognize (as do the great majority of people at AW) that many posters here were once deceived by that company and consequently possess much empathy for current members of the PA community, even when such members are being obnoxious and disruptive when they post here. I am still impressed with the way former PA authors welcome such posters; it is indicitive of high moral character in my opinion.

    But (you knew this was coming)...there is bound to be some criticism of PA authors as long as said authors are regurgitating the company lines they are being fed...PA authors, as a group, are not special...as a group, they don't represent people who should have been published...as a group, they don't deserve to be treated like literary giants... as a group, they are not overflowing with skills and knowledge on writing and publishing. Sometimes, pointing this out can be offensive, but it is justified, in my opinion, insofar as it helps potential PA clients recognize that PA doesn't care if you are any good at your craft...doesn't care if you can put two sentences togther...doesn't care if your writing is intelligible, interesting, or entertaining. All they care about is $$$$, can they get it from you, your family, and your friends if they print up some bound copies of your manuscript.

    So...if a comment here is offensive to some current PA authors over there, I'm not going to lose too much sleep over it, since I believe that the cause being persued here is a worthwhile one. It's great when some see the light and jump ship, but I think it's even better when many more recognize that they should never even get on board.

    Everyone, please feel free to point out all my mistakes in this post and in all others; make a joke out of them if you can...I won't be offended, but maybe I'll learn something so someday, I can be profficient enough to be proud of my craft.

    Rob

    P.S. Have a nice day!

  13. #18763
    California Dreaming Patricia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff
    Ed:

    A sincere and public apology if my post about rep points offended.
    Jeff, trust me, it had nothing to do with you.
    "But ultimately eloquence runs on a deeper current. It moves us with what it leaves unsaid, touching off echoes in what we already know from our reading, our religion and our heritage. Eloquence invites us to bring some part of ourselves to the transaction." - William Zinsser, On Writing Well

  14. #18764
    Hack Writer realitychuck's Avatar
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    OTOH, spelling errors on a message board are common. I don't think pointing out one or two misspelled words in an entire post does anything to add to the discussion.

  15. #18765
    Shakespearean Fool DreamWeaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by realitychuck
    OTOH, spelling errors on a message board are common. I don't think pointing out one or two misspelled words in an entire post does anything to add to the discussion.
    You're right. I've moved a tiny bit more I had to say in response to the Take It Outside Board, in the Misspelling thread. Oops, make that the Spellchecking thread.
    Last edited by DreamWeaver; 04-29-2005 at 07:39 PM.
    Why doesn't George R. R. Martin use Twitter? He already killed off all 140 characters.

  16. #18766
    Herb Lady T42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robeiae
    But (you knew this was coming)...there is bound to be some criticism of PA authors as long as said authors are regurgitating the company lines they are being fed...PA authors, as a group, are not special...as a group, they don't represent people who should have been published...as a group, they don't deserve to be treated like literary giants... as a group, they are not overflowing with skills and knowledge on writing and publishing. Sometimes, pointing this out can be offensive, but it is justified, in my opinion, insofar as it helps [i
    potential[/i] PA clients recognize that PA doesn't care if you are any good at your craft...doesn't care if you can put two sentences togther...doesn't care if your writing is intelligible, interesting, or entertaining. All they care about is $$$$, can they get it from you, your family, and your friends if they print up some bound copies of your manuscript.
    I agree! I don't understand and never will understand why these people don't get it and I do understand why many of them (us) were picked up by PA. I never submitted my book anywhere else because pa was the first place I found (lucky me) but I do know that so many people have dreams of being a writer, an author and this is where pa takes advantage of people that don't know much about publishing or writing. It doesn't mean they don't have the right to put it on paper but it doesn't mean that it is meant to be published either.

    THE HERB LADY

  17. #18767
    Resident Curmudgeon ResearchGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ann
    Ken, when I got enough nerve to go into a B&N some miles from you, it was pleasant.
    ... I think I may be the only PA author in my immediate area and that store may not be as bothered with author request as maybe NY or some other large metro area. What about your area, Ken?
    I don't have any sort of numbers for PA authors in this multi-million population metro area, but I did exchange some pleasant email with Ken Ramirez, from a nearby town, whose young-adult fantasy novel, published by PA, has apparently been well received. He had a well-attended book signing at a B&N in Roseville (NE of Sacramento) recently, according to his report of the event (which I trust to be accurate). I would have gone, simply to meet him and see how it went, except for a miscommunication about the time of the event (on the store's part, when I phoned).

    I have met a handful of other PA authors via a local writers group, but do not know whether they have sought to do signings at major bookstores. (One only has a book in process, I believe; one has two PA novels already published, and one has a PA poetry book that he sells directly.)

    BTW, I was kidding about the bag over my head. It was just that it was awkward to ask a question to which I already knew the answer. I was already certain there would be no PA books in the store, but just as a formality I decided to ask.

    --Ken

  18. #18768
    California Dreaming Patricia's Avatar
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    While I agree,

    that correct spelling and grammar are very important; I also feel that to be overly concerned about it here, where you see very little gross errors makes for an uncomfortable atmosphere. Some PA authors may actually stay away if we make too big a deal of it.

    I appreciate corrections, if they appear to be something that I need to know and are repetitive. However, to openly correct someone can be a little touchy no matter what it pertains to. I think PM's serve as a nice option for corrections.

    As far as referring to PA as POZ, etc. I think most of the authors, just as we do, know that is a dig at PA only and not the authors themselves. I know Ed, he would have never used any of the terms had he known they would offend someone. He stopped saying a certain word for me, when I first came on board, because I was sensitive about it -- he is actually a very kind person.

    I think because he goes on in his kidding around radio personality, that people forget he has feeling and is subject to faults just as we all are.

    I, for one, will miss him much on these boards.

    I really think we should get back to focusing on the reason of this forum - how to change, or stop PA.

    All together now...PA SUCKS!
    Last edited by Patricia; 04-29-2005 at 08:31 PM.
    "But ultimately eloquence runs on a deeper current. It moves us with what it leaves unsaid, touching off echoes in what we already know from our reading, our religion and our heritage. Eloquence invites us to bring some part of ourselves to the transaction." - William Zinsser, On Writing Well

  19. #18769
    K J Siirila, welcome and I'm sorry to hear about your bad experiences.

    Passionate N.Y. Lady, welcome back. I hope you're still writing (I recommend the Writing Novels board, particularly the Uncle Jim threads) and will write a better novel to submit somewhere other than PA.

    Sarashay, I think your FAQ (http://sarashay.tripod.com/pafaq.html) is admirably concise (especially since my attempt at explicating _one_ of those points ended up running for several screens' worth of text). If you're looking to add links as sources, there are oodles in my PA page in the sig.

    Ed, I think I missed pieces of the dispute that led to your feeling you needed to leave. I think there's a constant tension between, on the one hand, blowing off steam here and demonstrating our scorn towards PA's business practices; and on the other, _appearing_ welcoming, helpful, and polite to readers who are probably inclined to think that we're anything but (PA authors who are stopping by with the idea that we're bashers, for instance, or who don't want to hear that their savior is being exposed as a fraud).

    Besides people's misconceptions regarding this board, the appearance of fairness is made all the more difficult because context for jokes--even jokes targeted at specific things, not all PA authors--often gets lost on a fast-moving thread like this. That's why I'm generally on the side of caution, but I think that reasonable people can disagree on where the line is drawn, and I for one don't doubt that your intentions are good.

    (Oh, and don't say you'd be like Shemp if you came back. Cold-blooded, pre-planned deceit is hardly equivalent to a decision that for the sake of your blood pressure, you're bowing out of the conversation for a time.)
    Last edited by Kate Nepveu; 04-29-2005 at 07:49 PM.

  20. #18770
    Resident Curmudgeon ResearchGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver
    ...
    If the PA editors won't help the folks who misspell/misuse words, and the general board population won't let other posters help them, how are they ever going to learn?...
    James N. Frey has some pertinent comments in his How to Write a Damn Good Novel. There, in a brief discussion of types of writers groups (pp. 153-155), he says of the easygoing "puff" group that "this type of group has ruined ... writers ...." He goes on, "You can gain nothing from flattery. It will destroy your determination by making you think your highly flawed first draft is a finished masterpiece." He endorses the highly critical "destructive groups" as "the only kind that are truly worthwhile."

    Hard words, but the man knows his stuff.

    --Ken
    Last edited by ResearchGuy; 04-29-2005 at 08:33 PM. Reason: corrected page numbers

  21. #18771
    California Dreaming Patricia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ResearchGuy
    I would have gone, simply to meet him and see how it went, except for a miscommunication about the time of the event (on the store's part, when I phoned).


    BTW, I was kidding about the bag over my head. It was just that it was awkward to ask a question to which I already knew the answer. I was already certain there would be no PA books in the store, but just as a formality I decided to ask.

    --Ken
    Actually, Ken, I knew about that signing. I also got the miscommunication about the time. I wanted to meet Ken too. I heard from several that his book is very well written.

    I sort of thought you might be teasing about the bag.
    "But ultimately eloquence runs on a deeper current. It moves us with what it leaves unsaid, touching off echoes in what we already know from our reading, our religion and our heritage. Eloquence invites us to bring some part of ourselves to the transaction." - William Zinsser, On Writing Well

  22. #18772
    Jenna's Cabana Boy Sparhawk's Avatar
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    Ed.. don't go !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyKay


    Ed... that's so... so...

    I'll miss your posts, and I'm sure they'll be a lot of others who will as well.
    Ed, I am sincerely sorry to see you go, the boards will be less without your insight and contribution. (Gherkin weeps!)
    Truth is a 3 edged sword. There's your version, my version and what actually happened.

    Friends don't let their friends write for Publish America. Be a friend and save an Author


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  23. #18773
    Quote Originally Posted by ResearchGuy
    James N. Frey has some pertinent comments in his How to Write a Damn Good Novel. [...] He endorses the highly critical "destructive groups" as "the only kind that are truly worthwhile."
    Hmmm, well, I've never been in a writing group, but I've seen some dynamics that I think might be similar--so I would just caution that there's a difference between ripping to shreds and honest, constructive criticism, and that it's easy for a group to fall into the shredding mentality under the guise of tough love.

  24. #18774
    Quixote without a cause Jeff's Avatar
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    OTOH, spelling errors on a message board are common. I don't think pointing out one or two misspelled words in an entire post does anything to add to the discussion.
    Perhaps, but neither does it destroy the point of what we are doing here.

    In fact, in cases of those over there whose message board prose has more than just "one or two misspelled words" it bolsters and lends credence to the fact that PA does not in any manner vett their authors for quality. The truth is that some of those folks over there have trouble constructing a sentence. Sure, we may understand that, but someone new to this discussion could simply think that there are "sour grapes" on our end, until they read the actual writing of some of those PA authors.

    I understand a bit of both sides in this, but I am firmly of the mind that if you put your name and your words out there -- whether on paper or in the
    phosphors of the internet -- you have no business complaining when someone disagrees or takes you to task in a legitimate manner. When composing on an internet message board dedicated to "traditional" "published" authors, if you demonstrate that you cannot effectively communicate with the written word then any discomfort you may feel is not the fault of the person who points it out.

    I have not come across any PA author who has not assumed or even demanded our respect -- they are, after all, published authors. While I encourage everyone to remember that in the end most of these people have been scammed, I also think it is important not to fall into the trap of backing off of legitimate comment (or even pointed parody) simply because of it. I have sympathy for those authors (and I have the utmost respect for those ex-PA authors here who have taken the time out of their lives to speak against that company) but I will continue to criticize their writing; not because I am mean, not because I bear a grudge, but because they willingly entered the same arena I have and I would expect nothing less to be done of my own work.

    To not do so just because we might want them to someday post here, to be so hyper-sensitive to their feelings that we limit between ourselves the manner in which we might discuss their work is, to my mind, playing exactly into the hands of those who claim we have covert motives aimed at the authors in all of this.

    Unless Jenna, Victoria or one of the other moderators tells me to stop, I will continue to criticize, parody, make light of and poke fun at both the people here and over in the Land of Poz. I expect that I too will be criticized and become the brunt of a few jokes, myself.

    And that is as it should be.

    Because if we truly are all writers who put our words out there for the public to see and read, we'd better be able to take responsiblity for them and in the end we can all benefit from having it happen.

    Regards,

    Jeff
    Last edited by Jeff; 04-29-2005 at 08:11 PM.
    "We'll move up into the mountains so far that we can't be found..."

  25. #18775
    California Dreaming Patricia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff
    Perhaps, but neither does it destroy the point of what we are doing here.


    Unless Jenna, Victoria or one of the other moderators tells me to stop, I will continue to criticize, parody, make light of and poke fun at both the people here and over in the Land of Poz. I expect that I too will be criticized and become the brunt of a few jokes, myself.

    And that is as it should be.

    Because if we truly are all writers who put our words out there for the public to see and read, we'd better be able to take responsiblity for them and in the end we can all benefit from having it happen.

    Regards,

    Jeff
    Jeff, the main focus of this board has always been PA and not the authors. Jenna, James, and Victoria have stated that. So proceed at your own risk.
    Last edited by Patricia; 04-29-2005 at 08:20 PM.
    "But ultimately eloquence runs on a deeper current. It moves us with what it leaves unsaid, touching off echoes in what we already know from our reading, our religion and our heritage. Eloquence invites us to bring some part of ourselves to the transaction." - William Zinsser, On Writing Well

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