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Thread: The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

  1. #11376
    California Dreaming Patricia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald

    Bottom line: I'm not trying to help PA authors because there's not much I can do for them (except, perhaps, confirm their worst fears). The ones I'm trying to help are those who aren't yet PA authors. They still have a chance.
    I beg to differ, Jim. While you may confirm their worst fears, (which you do with tact), you also point them in the right direction in finding a way to either undo the mess, or encourage them to forge ahead with their next project. You impressed me with some of your input simply because you knew what you were talking about, in a great part, from experience.
    Last edited by Patricia; 03-16-2005 at 12:12 AM.
    "But ultimately eloquence runs on a deeper current. It moves us with what it leaves unsaid, touching off echoes in what we already know from our reading, our religion and our heritage. Eloquence invites us to bring some part of ourselves to the transaction." - William Zinsser, On Writing Well

  2. #11377
    Will write for peace of mind Kevin Yarbrough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christine N.
    That was bad. Stick with what you're good at - bad Star Wars parodies (by bad, I mean, hilarious) and prancing with your purple pony.

    Ok, I know we've had a discussion on this, but for educational purposes, I am quoting from the PA board.



    This is from Michelle T, who is a big PA cheerleader. I used this quote because what she believes to be fact is patently false. She got this straight from the PA brainwash - I mean infocenter, or author retort, I mean support. I think it's on their main page.

    Put no stock in this, it is a lie.

    Back to your regularly scheduled prancing.
    I'm the William Hung of PA song parodies...all right!!!! Hey, where is my record contract? Jaws, when I get the contract, want to look it over for me?

    Time to move on from the Star Wars parodies. Maybe I will try "Blazing Saddles" or some other Mel Brooks movies.
    The inner machinations of my mind are an enigma.




  3. #11378
    Nefarious Ghost Fan AnneMarble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard
    It's worth pointing out that you really have to hunt around to find a message board as bad as PA's. That's in terms of software, I mean. It's truly horrible.
    I've seen far worse, believe me. The Romantic Times message board annoys me because I don't like the threading, and there are frames or something, so everything has the same URL. And the Luna board annoys me because of the organization.

    And the message board on horror author Ramsey Campbell's site makes me want to peel my eyes out.
    THE Official FreakTM
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  4. #11379
    Hack Writer realitychuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByGrace
    Say Bantam publishes a romance novel by Lovey Dovey. It's placed in bookstores across the US. Some don't sell. The covers are ripped off. (I don't understand that.) Then the books are sent back to who? Ingram or Bantam? I doubt it would be Bantam.
    The covers are only ripped off from mass market paperbacks. This is to save postage and space. Mass market paperbacks are sold in many places other than bookstores (the supermarket, spinner racks in drug/candy stores, etc.). They don't want to be bothered with returns, and usually there is a "rack jobber" who takes care of it. But the jobber doesn't want to have to take back the books, so they just rip the covers and return them to the publisher. The rest of the book is trashed (and cannot legally be resold).

    Bookstores could return the entire book along with the trade books they return anyway, but the publishers probably prefer to keep one system.

    The covers or books are sent back to the publisher, though. Trade paperbacks and hardcovers can be sent out again, either at full price, or as remainders at a discount.

    Ingrams is a wholesaler, so they'd get the returns and then pass them back to the publisher. Lightning Source is a printer, and does not get the books back any more than a regular offset printer would get the books back. Printers are paid a fee to print the book and have nothing to do with selling them.

  5. #11380
    Your Genial Uncle Absolute Sage James D. Macdonald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByGrace
    Say Bantam publishes a romance novel by Lovey Dovey. It's placed in bookstores across the US. Some don't sell. The covers are ripped off. (I don't understand that.) Then the books are sent back to who? Ingram or Bantam? I doubt it would be Bantam.
    !
    A better person to ask would be Hapi -- but Hapi hasn't been back much since we changed to the new board.

    Anyway, this is how it works....

    First, the ones that have their covers ripped off are the mass market paperbacks. The reason they have their covers ripped off is to prove that they didn't sell. This is because, for the purposes of distribution, mass market paperbacks are specialized magazines. Mass market piggybacks on the distribution system developed to get newspapers and magazines into bus stations and drugstores. You wouldn't send back last week's TV Guide (and expect to sell it somewhere else). The system of ripping off magazines' covers and newspapers' mastheads extends to the paperbacks.

    Often times the books that have been on wire-rack spinners aren't in salable condition anyway, even if they are returned. And it is quite literally true that it's cheaper to print a new copy than it is to ship an old copy back, inspect it to see if it's still salable, and restock it into a warehouse somewhere.

    The covers are torn off, and the physical books go into the Dumpster out back. (Sometimes, in major cities, you'll see guys on the sidewalks selling paperbacks arranged on blankets, all face-down. They're selling them for a quarter a copy or something -- current best sellers even. If you look at those books, they all have their covers torn off. Those are from someone Dumpster diving, looking for money for wine.

    That's mass market. Those are the books you see in grocery stores in the wire-rack spinners. (You will, of course, also see them in bookstores -- but this system was developed when bookstores were still rare.)

    Oftentimes these days, the merchant doesn't even physically rip off covers. They just sign an piece of paper swearing the books were destroyed.

    Next come the trade books. Those are the trade paperbacks and the hardbacks. (They're called "trade" because they're designed for the "book trade" rather than the "mass market.")

    Those are whole-copy returnable. The trade paperbacks are sturdier than the mass market books. They are, in effect, cheaply bound hardcovers.

    Those books, when they don't sell, are put in boxes and sent back to the warehouse they came from. Which is either the publisher's warehouse or the distributor's warehouse. The printer isn't involved. The distributor or the publisher then uses those same books to fill other orders.

    (Note: "Trade" paperbacks aren't determined by size or price. There exist "rack size trade paperbacks" which are visually identical to mass market paperbacks. The difference between trade and mass market is what happens to the copies that don't sell.)

    And where is the money in all this? Except for the money that comes in at the cash register from sold books, there isn't any. All the returns and stripped books become credit for the bookstore's next order. In effect, a returned book magically becomes a different physcial book, a book that might sell where this one didn't.

    Please notice that readers, and what they pick up and pay money for, drive this system.
    Last edited by James D. Macdonald; 03-16-2005 at 01:32 AM.

  6. #11381
    practical experience, FTW cwgranny's Avatar
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    In light of Victoria and Jaws remarks about harrassment, I totally retract any suggestion that anyone might roll the townhouse, prancing or otherwise. Furthermore, I also would never suggest that dogs with intestinal issues be walked in front of the townhouse stairs on a regular basis, nor would I suggest that anyone call over there and ask if they have Prince Edward in a can.

    I'm a nice old lady and would never suggest these things.
    Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go feed my dog some prunes and take it for a walk.

    gran

  7. #11382
    Herb Lady T42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwgranny
    In light of Victoria and Jaws remarks about harrassment, I totally retract any suggestion that anyone might roll the townhouse, prancing or otherwise. Furthermore, I also would never suggest that dogs with intestinal issues be walked in front of the townhouse stairs on a regular basis, nor would I suggest that anyone call over there and ask if they have Prince Edward in a can.

    I'm a nice old lady and would never suggest these things.
    Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go feed my dog some prunes and take it for a walk.

    gran



    THE HERB LADY

  8. #11383
    Herb Lady T42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyS.
    This could be a clue as to why I don't write music. lol



    You can prance, you can write, having the time of your life
    See that girl, watch that scene, digging the Prancing Queen

    You go girl! I can feel the beat....

    THE HERB LADY

  9. #11384
    The Stooge Slayer lindylou45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Williams
    Christine, I love ya, but I only prance if someone buys me dinner first. And even after that, I play hard to get...
    I've heard you like to be kissed first.
    Linda

    Visit The Stooge Slayer! at www.publishamericasucks.com . Taking PublishAmerica down one stooge at a time! :faint:

  10. #11385
    The late, the great XThe NavigatorX mdin's Avatar
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    When I was sixteen I used to work at a Walgreens, and every month I would be given a list of books to deface. We'd rip the covers right off, put them all in an envelope and send 'em off to Walgreens headquarters. It's cheaper to send the covers than the whole book.

    The defaced books ended up in the dumpster, but I always took at least one of each. Bad, I know, but I got a whole lot of reading done when I was 16.

  11. #11386
    Your Genial Uncle Absolute Sage James D. Macdonald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByGrace
    Isn't it just a matter that the publisher would not get payment for unsold copies, and that Ingram or Lightning Source would take the loss on printing the book?
    I missed this part of the question.

    The distributor and the printer both get paid, by the publisher. Neither take a loss on an unsold book. The only people who are taking a risk are the publishers. Bookstores aren't taking a risk -- the books are returnable. Printers aren't taking a risk -- publishers pay them directly. Distributors aren't taking a risk -- publishers give them a percentage of the price of the book for each copy that moves through them. The authors aren't taking a risk -- they're paid in advance.

    And that's the way it should be. Publishers take the risk because they selected the book, they edited it, they produced it, they marketed it. And the readers, seeing that book on the shelf know that the publisher is standing behind it. That somewhere there's an editor who's saying "I'm betting the company's money that you'll enjoy this book. If I'm wrong, I'll get fired."

    Readers don't get that feeling with vanity books. There, they hear the author saying "My mom thought this book is wonderful. Even if it sucks, she's still my mom."

    ==============

    You keep hearing PA authors tell one another that they have to believe in their books; that'll make the readers believe in their books too.

    But where is the author who doesn't believe in his own book? The reader is looking for something that will tell him that someone else besides the author believes in this book.

    When a reader enters a bookstore, he's the most selfish guy in the world. He isn't thinking "Today I'll give a new author a chance!" -- he's thinking "What would I enjoy?" It's all about the reader. The reader's motto might as well be, "Yeah, but what's in it for me?"

    ==============

    A minor gripe:

    Guys: "Sale" is a noun. "Sell" is a verb.

    You don't say "I'm going to sale my books." You don't say "How many sells did you get?"

    Nouns. Verbs. This is basic English. If you're shaky on grammar your local bookstore is full of review and study workbooks.
    Last edited by James D. Macdonald; 03-16-2005 at 01:33 AM.

  12. #11387
    banned as an incurable tosspot Ed Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindylou45
    I've heard you like to be kissed first.
    Lindylou, since I like ya, I'm gonna return that smooch, but in my own, low keyed way:



    And since everyone seems to be focused on prancing these days, here's a little instructional piece on how its done:


  13. #11388
    The Stooge Slayer lindylou45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Williams
    Lindylou, since I like ya, I'm gonna return that smooch, but in my own, low keyed way:


    Aww, I like you too, Ed.

    Linda

    Visit The Stooge Slayer! at www.publishamericasucks.com . Taking PublishAmerica down one stooge at a time! :faint:

  14. #11389
    Will write for peace of mind Kevin Yarbrough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindylou45
    Aww, I like you too, Ed.

    I love you all, man!!! It just makes me want to cry.
    The inner machinations of my mind are an enigma.




  15. #11390
    Techno-Cathar Perfect Diana Hignutt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald
    Bottom line: I'm not trying to help PA authors because there's not much I can do for them (except, perhaps, confirm their worst fears). The ones I'm trying to help are those who aren't yet PA authors. They still have a chance.
    I'm going to agree with Ann's comment on this, Uncle Jim. I think that this thread can be a tremendous benefit to current PA authors, and that your posts especially so. They need to know that they're being lied to. That they are being cheated. They need to know this so they can get away from PA as fast as possible to truly begin their writing careers. Knowing the truth about the publishing industry is just as important for a PA author's future as any other writer's.

    So, did I miss the prancing lessons, or what?

    diana

  16. #11391
    banned as an incurable tosspot Ed Williams's Avatar
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    Folks, this is amazing....

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana Hignutt
    I'm going to agree with Ann's comment on this, Uncle Jim. I think that this thread can be a tremendous benefit to current PA authors, and that your posts especially so. They need to know that they're being lied to. That they are being cheated. They need to know this so they can get away from PA as fast as possible to truly begin their writing careers. Knowing the truth about the publishing industry is just as important for a PA author's future as any other writer's.

    diana
    We can always improve this thread, but let's also recognize something that should all be proud of - this morning I mentioned that we had accumulated over 100,000 page views. As of this moment we are working towards 103,000. Three thousand page views a day would put us at a little over a million a year, which is very noteworthy. Will we all always agree on approach or tactics? No, and that's a very good thing as it will invite open discussion that can only benefit the overall quality of the thread. Think about it, we just might all be participating in the largest internet based venue of information out there re PA, and that's a very good thing...

    Diana also said:

    So, did I miss the prancing lessons, or what?
    Sorry Diana, here are the current prance classes being taught and their fees (yes, we are a fee-based Prance Institute and proud of it!) are as follows:

    Traditional prance lessons - 1 hour each, only 7 year packages available - $24,550.
    Non-traditional prancing - 1 day, includes leprechaun outfit - $1,000.
    Instructor led prancing - Kevin Yarbrough, lead instructor - he pays you $100 an hour for each one that you'll spend prancing around with him.
    Last edited by Ed Williams; 03-16-2005 at 02:17 AM.

  17. #11392
    Wary...and weary WhisperingBard's Avatar
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    Quote:
    Non-traditional prancing - 1 day, includes leprechaun outfit - $1,000.
    Hey, Diana, I don't know about you, but I'd almost be willing to pay $1000 to see *Ed* in a leprechaun outfit, prancing or no prancing.
    Bard

    "I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief." - Gerry Spence

  18. #11393
    Will write for peace of mind Kevin Yarbrough's Avatar
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    No can do Ed buddy ole pal. I can't pay those fees. I will be willing to sign over my royalty checks though.

    Now, more songs.

    To the tune of Wingers "Headed for a heartbreak"

    Yeeaaaahhhhh!!!
    You were here when I came,
    but you won't be here when I'm gone.
    So don't be waiting for my next book,
    Cause I'll be waitng to publish on.

    Headed for a heartbreak.
    Headed for a heartbreak.

    PA don't wait for my next book,
    cause it will be gone.
    You've become a scam,
    and I got to find a real publisher and move on.

    Headed for a heartbreak.
    Headed for a heartbreak.

    To the tune of Scorpions "Winds of change"

    Folow them as one,
    down to Patrick Street.
    Listening to the winds of change.
    On a summer night,
    authors pasing by.
    Listening to the winds of change.
    The world is closing in,
    and did you ever think the cops could be so close,
    like cell mates.

    Take me,
    to the magic of a court apperance
    on a glory night
    where the authors of tomorrow
    get their books back
    in a wind of change

    To the tune of "Something to believe in" by Poison

    See them on the monitor
    preaching about bookstore placements
    Tells me he believes in Jesus
    but steals the money from our checks.
    Some say Meiners was a good man
    but Lord, I think he sinned

    5 years in scam biz
    cries they are all whinners
    started losing war in his own shore
    to find out his authors didn't want him back
    In a time I don't remember
    in a war he can't forget
    He cries forget me for what I done there
    cause I meant to steal, yes I did

    Give me something to believe in,
    there is authors abound
    Give me something to believe in
    oh, hand me those checks

    To the tune of Damn Yankees "High Enough"

    I don't want to hear about it, anymore
    It's a shame I have to live without it, anymore
    There is a stolen book
    a pouding in my hardrive, driving me crazy
    We don't need to talk about it anymore
    my book is a memory
    and we closed the door
    I just made one mistake
    I didn't know what to say when you said I was publishable

    Don't say goobye
    say you will stay forever
    Ohhhh, ohhhh, always

    Can you take my book high enough?
    to fly me over bookstore placements
    can you take me high enough?
    it's never over, my book is just a memory

    I don't want to live without you, anymore
    can't you see I'm in misery cause you hold my rights
    I would fight and lie to you and I know just what to do to get my rights back

    To the tune of "Almost Pardise" by Mike Reno and Anne Wilson

    I thought that publishing belonged to other men
    cause each time I got close
    I was rejected again
    I feared my book would be unpublished
    I faced the nights alone
    oh how could I have known
    that all my life I only needed you

    Almost Publishamericadise,
    were knocking on a scammers door
    Almost Publishamericadise
    how could we ask for more
    I swear that I can see your lies in your eyes

    Publishamericadise

    It seems like perfect publishers are hard to find
    I almsot given up
    but you must have read my manuscript
    all the words I saved for a rainy day
    they're finally coming true
    I'll share them all with you
    cause now we hold the future of publishing in our hands

    Almost Publishamericadise,
    were knocking on a scammers door
    Almost Publishamericadise
    how could we ask for more
    I swear that I can see your lies in your eyes

    publishamericadise

    In your hands salvation is so far away
    it's getting farther, farther away everyday

    publishamericadise
    The inner machinations of my mind are an enigma.




  19. #11394
    practical experience, FTW Renee's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald
    Blast from the past. (So many new folks here, I don't know how many have seen this....)

    To the tune of "Jolene" (Dolly Parton):
    PA, PA, PA, PA .I'm begging of you please give back my book


    *Wipes away tears from laughing*
    Oh my God, James, that was hysterical! And now..so am I!
    "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained." William Blake 1757-1827.


    www.reneebagley.com

  20. #11395
    Auroraless ExPAtriate Sher2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Yarbrough
    Now, more songs.

    To the tune of Wingers "Headed for a heartbreak"

    Yeeaaaahhhhh!!!
    You were here when I came,
    but you won't be here when I'm gone.
    So don't be waiting for my next book,
    Cause I'll be waitng to publish on.

    Headed for a heartbreak.
    Headed for a heartbreak.

    PA don't wait for my next book,
    cause it will be gone.
    You've become a scam,
    and I got to find a real publisher and move on.
    Kevin, you're probably too young to remember Jim Morrison, but I'm getting ready to write one especially for Moe-randa. The title will be "PA Woman." Stay tuned.
    Sherry
    PublishPimpAmerica - call 1-900-Lie to Me

  21. #11396
    haz a shiny new book cover Christine N.'s Avatar
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    Whoa..

    Kevin, that was way too long. And you should try a parady of that Mel Brooks classic "The Producers" That's where these two shady guys try to fleece a bunch of people... oh wait. Never mind.

    Here's my own song contribution. Now, here's the setup: Willem is Lord Farquad, the diminutive monarch from Shrek. Remember that little do-hickey that Shrek and Donkey open up when they first enter Duloc?

    (clears throat)
    Welcome to Fredrick, such a perfect down,
    Here we have some rules, let us lay them down.
    Write a book, buy our lies, and we'll get on just fine
    PA is a perfect place

    We "buy" books, all en masse
    POD, watch your...tone
    PA is, PA is,
    PA is a Perrrrfect Plaaaaace!

    Ok, it's not great. Just something that popped into my head.

    Think we could find a dragon willing to eat him?

    Yeah, I'll go back to my brownie baking...
    Christine

    Young Adult Fantasy Author

    A CURSE OF ASH AND IRON: Coming Spring 2015 from Curiosity Quills Press

    "The Watchmaker's Ball" (short story), to be included in BEWARE THE LITTLE WHITE RABBIT (anthology), coming April 14 from Leap Books


    Represented by Jordy Albert of Booker Albert Literary

    I tweet

    Young Adult Authors You've Never Heard Of

  22. #11397
    practical experience, FTW Renee's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by KellyS.
    The one thing that I hated about pa's mb was that you couldn't edit any posts after you hit submit. Whenever someone complained, it was said that you should preview and spell check and yada, yada, yada. Of course, I tried to make sure my grammar and spelling were always correct. However, if you posted something and then changed your opinion, you had to make an entirely new post to say as much. I just wonder how many people over there wish they could edit out something they said a day or an hour ago. I'm just going on my own experience there and know that there were times that I wish the option had been there.
    I know what you mean Kelly. There were many times I wished that I could have edited something on the PA boards, but once it's said over there, well there is no taking it back, in many ways. Then the private boards came along and at first you could edit your posts, so many of us were like oh cool PA..woo freakin' hoo.. (LMFAO) and then they took the option away within a matter of days.

    Funny thing is after I left PA they changed the message board option to only go back 30 days or so..MADE MY FREAKIN' DAY!! I don't go to the PA boards at all, but I was told it changed to 30 days and did go check it out that day. Don't know if it's still that way now or not.

    And then it doesn't really matter because if people tell the truth over in PA land...well they are ambushed by the "we are a family clan." It's sick and the reason I left PA's grip! But those people are just walking the line and will eventually decide to step over to freedom.

    It's almost as if PA doesn't want their authors to find any joy whatsoever in their company. And I for one know that if the PA boards were to go down, permanently, there would be alot less of the personal "us and them issues," and many more PA authors would move on without PA. Right now too many have their noses buried up various PA company and that keeps everything much too personal for many and then they can no longer find their way out without making "enemies."


    I just wanted out of the whole PA thing myself. Ah, and it feels good.
    Last edited by Renee; 03-16-2005 at 03:19 AM.
    "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained." William Blake 1757-1827.


    www.reneebagley.com

  23. #11398
    Your Genial Uncle Absolute Sage James D. Macdonald's Avatar
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    For those of you who are wondering what all this talk of Prancing is about, it's a reference to this fact from PublishAmerica:

    FACT #5: PublishAmerica is NOT in any way a POD, vanity prance, or subsidy prancer, and has nothing in common with them. Obviously, our authors are also not prancing. In the most commonly used context, POD indicates "Prance On Demand", or vanity prancing. Vanity prancers charge for their "services". Some charge a few hundred dollars, others a thousand or more. We are not in that league, in any way, shape or fashion.

  24. #11399
    Herb Lady T42's Avatar
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    Next.....

    Okay, if Iím counting them correctly I have now ďcopiedĒ nine songs for our 200 book. Please letís get busy people! If I hear anyone complaining you will be banned :Fairydust immediately.

    THE HERB LADY

  25. #11400
    Will write for peace of mind Kevin Yarbrough's Avatar
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    I just noticed that PA changed something. Instead of the line "We treat our authors the old fashioned way-we pay them" it now says "Authors- Resistance is futile".

    FACT #5: PublishAmerica is NOT in any way a POD, vanity prance, or subsidy prancer, and has nothing in common with them. Obviously, our authors are also not prancing. In the most commonly used context, POD indicates "Prance On Demand", or vanity prancing. Vanity prancers charge for their "services". Some charge a few hundred dollars, others a thousand or more. We are not in that league, in any way, shape or fashion.

    Guess that would make Ed's prancing lessons a vanity then huh Uncle Jim? Ed, shame on you. At least with me, as the instructor, things are done the right way...money flows towards the prancer. Ed, do we have to revoke your BTO rights?
    The inner machinations of my mind are an enigma.




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