Dragon Publishing / Dragonpublishing.net

Brian Smith · Jan 14, 2007

Dragonpublishing.net is pretty new in the POD market place but they have been incredible to work with. I've published 2 books with them and it has been a 100% enjoyable, easy process. They delivered on 100% of what they promised me and continue to deliver on even more. They pay 83% royalties and actually seem to care about my success, rather than just take my money.

I've used other POD's on my previous novels and my experience was dismal, seemed all they cared about was taking my money.

Feel free to contact them at http://www.dragonpublishing.net and use my name if you wish. They do NOT accept every manuscript, in fact they sent my 2nd submission back with recommendations. I made the recommended changes and they accepted it.

Unimportant · Jan 15, 2007

This is a fee-for-service provider. You pay between $500 and $1800, they convert your file to a PDF, and then it looks suspiciously like they use Lulu to set up your book.

This isn't self publishing or e-publishing. It's vanity, plain and simple. That's fine, if that's what you want. But for true self publishing I'd say Lulu is a much better choice, and much much cheaper.

edited to add: the 83% royalty rate is on net, after subtracting the cost of printing; so it comes out about 15% of cover price.

budha3 · Jan 15, 2007

New Self publishing company

The problem with self publishing companies is that they do not edit your books (Unless you pay them an additional fee), and your books are returnable (Unless you pay them an additional fee) After getting fed-up these companies, I decided to start a self publishing company that was more author-friendly. Lulu does not charge you to publish your book, but they also will not edit it. Parallel View Publishing offers all these services, plus a custom book cover for one price of $495.00 You book is returnable, at no extra cost, you can publish "Large print, hardcover, color etc, at no extra cost. If another company offers a better deal, please email me and let me know who it is. www.parallelviewpublishing.com

LloydBrown · Jan 15, 2007

So that would make your company another vanity publisher, then.

veinglory · Jan 15, 2007

A publisher that charges hundreds of dollars and still might reject my work, way to get the worst of both worlds.

Unimportant · Jan 15, 2007

Parallel View Publishing:

Re: Editing. "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

From the website:
Author submits manuscript to publisher --> Publisher sends edited and proofread text proofs to author for review.

There seems to be a few steps missing: Publisher contracts professional substantive editor; substantive editor reviews ms and sends comments to author; author revises ms; editor reviews changes and sends comments to author; author makes any additional changes; publisher contracts professional copyeditor....lather, rinse, repeat.

This looks like a vanity publisher, not self publishing, to me.

Brian Smith · Jan 15, 2007

Sorry to correct you but they do NOT use Lulu, they have an alliance with LSI, which is easily confirmed by simply reading their website.

Also, they are defined as a POD, which they do not hide. By definition POD and self-publishing are basically the same thing, with minimal differences.

Regardless, they have supplied me with 100% of what was promised, which is what I stated.

Unimportant said:
This is a fee-for-service provider. You pay between $500 and $1800, they convert your file to a PDF, and then it looks suspiciously like they use Lulu to set up your book.

This isn't self publishing or e-publishing. It's vanity, plain and simple. That's fine, if that's what you want. But for true self publishing I'd say Lulu is a much better choice, and much much cheaper.

edited to add: the 83% royalty rate is on net, after subtracting the cost of printing; so it comes out about 15% of cover price.

veinglory · Jan 15, 2007

Nope. Many small but not self- publishers use POD. Go to any trade paperback shelf in Borders or B&N to become aquainted with this astoundingly fundamental fact.

And 'relationship'? do explain. What exactly do they provide that Lulu cannot? You do know that any individual person can get the same deal with LSI, right? You can even tell me what LSI stands for, I am sure.

By stating, very deceptively that the offer '85% royalties' (normallty assumed to be a percentage of cover price) versus the evil "traditional publishers" 15% (which *is* calculated this way) they don't put their best foot forward.

But I am always keen to see info about specific services one self-publisher offers that others do not. Especially services that justify such immense, old school vanity press style, fees. If they really do offer something special I will blog to high heaven about it and tell all the PODders. So where is this special thing?

Your books are in stores?

Sold 1000 copies in the first few months?

Gone into the black yet?

Bought many copies yourself? (at cost *plus* 10%, so even after charging $500 they make even more money off you)

veinglory · Jan 15, 2007

Okay, I see two authors listed, and the two or more ("we") founders of dragon say they self publish through it. So you, Brian Smith, are here to say you are supremely satified with the services of your own company?

I get more impressed by the minute.

ColoradoGuy · Jan 15, 2007

It would indeed be a major drag if one was screwed over by his own company.

veinglory · Jan 15, 2007

With both books having a nil Amazon ranking, I wouldn't rule it out.

But perhaps Brian can correct me and point me to another possible conclusion based on that evidence?

CaoPaux · Jan 15, 2007

I expect it would surprise few to learn that both Dragon Publishing and Parallel View are founded by PublishAmerica authors.

aka eraser · Jan 15, 2007

Oy vey.

Unimportant · Jan 15, 2007

"I expect it would surprise few to learn that both Dragon Publishing and Parallel View are founded by PublishAmerica authors."

I never even thought of that. D'oh!

One of the services provided (for an extra fee): for $100, they'll register the copyright for you. Correct me if I'm wrong -- it's a simple form, plus $45 fee, to register copyright, yes?

citymouse · Jan 16, 2007

One of the services provided (for an extra fee): for $100, they'll register the copyright for you. Correct me if I'm wrong -- it's a simple form, plus $45 fee, to register copyright, yes?[/QUOTE]

Yikes! They must have raised the fee since I regestered my book, then it was a mere $35.00. If you have the book already in hand all you have to do is send a copy plus their form (downloads from LOC website) along with $$ to Washington. And viola there you are.
C

James D. Macdonald · Jan 16, 2007

If another company offers a better deal, please email me and let me know who it is.

This isn'ta complete list, but it's a good start.

Now as to http://dragonpublishing.net (and if you check whois you'll find it's a site owned by a Brian Smith), let's look at a bit more than the fees (ranging from $500 to $1,800 or much, much more with "add ons" ranging from $100 to $450).

Unfortunately, we may not be able to publish your manuscript if it doesn't fit within our formatting guidelines.

Not quality, not marketability ... formatting.

Dragonpublishing.net is a provider of limited services only and assumes no responsibility for reviewing or correcting the content of the Work.

Well, that's certainly value-added, isn't it?

Dragon Publishing pays authors 83% of the payments we receive from sales of your book. Our royalty payment percentage is unheard of in the publishing industry.

...

Paperback Example: Someone purchases a copy of your 210 page book at Barnes & Nobles and the cover price of your book is $14.50. Subtract Barnes & Nobles 55% trade discount ($7.98) and subtract the printing cost ($4.05), the remainder ($2.47) is the profit margin, 83% of which ($2.05) is the royalty paid to you.

Hard Cover Example: Someone purchases a copy of your 210 page book at Barnes & Nobles and the cover price of your book is $27.00. Subtract Barnes & Nobles 55% trade discount ($14.85) and subtract the printing cost ($10.70), the remainder ($1.45) is the profit margin, 83% of which ($1.20) is the royalty paid to you.

In the paperback example, that works out to a royalty of 14%. That's hardly unheardof. In the hardcover example that works out to a royalty of 4%. I have to agree -- for a hardcover, that's close to unheardof. It's incredibly low. (Not that anyone is going to buy a 210 page, $27 book. 83% of zero is zero.)

Authors may purchase copies of their own title, in any quantity from Dragonpublishing.net, at the current printing cost plus 10%, plus the actual shipping and handling.

Note: Printing prices are subject to change as market conditions and costs warrant.

And that, friends, is where they expect to make their money.

If all you're looking for is a printer, go to the Yellow Pages. They're under P. If you're looking for a publisher, go to your local bookstore -- they list their addresses on the copyright pages of the books you see on the shelf.

If you're looking for a vanity press, there are cheaper ones out there.

Brian Smith · Jan 16, 2007

I personally have no idea what Lulu provides or doesn't since I have never used them. From what people have told me though I understand that Lulu does not interior formatting or cover design, but I have no idea if this is or is not true.

LSI, Lightning Source Incorporated, that much I have learned.

You bring up some valid points.

Can you please name me, oh lets see, 100 books that were self-published that sold 1000 copies in first few months?

The only books I purchased myself were for friends and family, less then 20.

veinglory said:
Nope. Many small but not self- publishers use POD. Go to any trade paperback shelf in Borders or B&N to become aquainted with this astoundingly fundamental fact.

And 'relationship'? do explain. What exactly do they provide that Lulu cannot? You do know that any individual person can get the same deal with LSI, right? You can even tell me what LSI stands for, I am sure.

By stating, very deceptively that the offer '85% royalties' (normallty assumed to be a percentage of cover price) versus the evil "traditional publishers" 15% (which *is* calculated this way) they don't put their best foot forward.

But I am always keen to see info about specific services one self-publisher offers that others do not. Especially services that justify such immense, old school vanity press style, fees. If they really do offer something special I will blog to high heaven about it and tell all the PODders. So where is this special thing?

Your books are in stores?

Sold 1000 copies in the first few months?

Gone into the black yet?

Bought many copies yourself? (at cost *plus* 10%, so even after charging $500 they make even more money off you)

victoriastrauss · Jan 16, 2007

Dragon touts its 83% royalties, but if you read the fine print you discover that royalties are paid on net (cover price less discount, which can be as high as 55% with the online booksellers) less printing costs. Other fee-based PODs, such as iUniverse, have a straightforward percentage-of-net royalty deal.

Also, since POD book prices are based on page count, the more expensive the book, the higher the printing cost. So the dollar amount of your Dragon royalty will actually decrease if you have a longer, higher-priced book.

I've seen a lot of strange stuff in the pay-to-publish world, but that's a first.

- Victoria

LloydBrown · Jan 16, 2007

I personally have no idea what Lulu provides or doesn't since I have never used them.

Go to Lulu.com. They explain it without any deceitful phrases.

Can you please name me, oh lets see, 100 books that were self-published that sold 1000 copies in first few months?

That would pretty much be the point.

Brian Smith · Jan 16, 2007

I am not the owner of Dragonpublishing.net. This can easily be verified by checking public records.

I am the owner of a web hosting service and they now use my service, switched to me in late 2006. This can be easily verified by checking the domain registeration.

I am equally impressed by your ability to misinform and not check the accuracy of your information. Makes me wonder how accurate your other information is.

veinglory said:
Okay, I see two authors listed, and the two or more ("we") founders of dragon say they self publish through it. So you, Brian Smith, are here to say you are supremely satified with the services of your own company?

I get more impressed by the minute.

Brian Smith · Jan 16, 2007

As I stated in an earlier message, I own and operate a web hosting company. I do not own Dragonpublishing.net.

For the record, they have never pushed me to buy a single copy of my book. In fact they did the opposite and questioned my reasoning when I placed my order for personal books to give to family and friends. This is only one example of my dealings with them. When I discussed a couple of the add-ons they recommended that they were not necessary unless I absolutely demanded it. Of course they were willing to sell me whatever I wanted, but thier advise steered me away from making the additional purchases.

James D. Macdonald said:
If another company offers a better deal, please email me and let me know who it is.

This isn'ta complete list, but it's a good start.

Now as to http://dragonpublishing.net (and if you check whois you'll find it's a site owned by a Brian Smith), let's look at a bit more than the fees (ranging from $500 to $1,800 or much, much more with "add ons" ranging from $100 to $450).

Not quality, not marketability ... formatting.

Well, that's certainly value-added, isn't it?

In the paperback example, that works out to a royalty of 14%. That's hardly unheardof. In the hardcover example that works out to a royalty of 4%. I have to agree -- for a hardcover, that's close to unheardof. It's incredibly low. (Not that anyone is going to buy a 210 page, $27 book. 83% of zero is zero.)

And that, friends, is where they expect to make their money.

If all you're looking for is a printer, go to the Yellow Pages. They're under P. If you're looking for a publisher, go to your local bookstore -- they list their addresses on the copyright pages of the books you see on the shelf.

If you're looking for a vanity press, there are cheaper ones out there.

Brian Smith · Jan 16, 2007

I find it interesting to see so many people upset that I am 100% satisfied with a company. Not only are people upset but they state incorrect facts, claiming I am the owner of the company based on information that in no way states or reflects me as the owner. I also see these same people bash every POD/Vanity publisher yet very few of them have had anything published using a traditional publisher.

This isn't the only forum I have seen this occur. Seems some people will never allow other people to be happy with their own personal decision and will do everything in thier power to "save" the person and others. To me it is sorta like pushing your religion on others that don't want saved and are happy with what they have.

I haven't even started marketing my last 2 books, yet I have had people question my sales. I have marketed my 1st book, which is now used in Northern Illinois Universities English Literture class. This can be confirmed by contacting Professor Karley Adney at NIU. How many of you have accomplsihed this? You people that bad mouth POD's/Vanity Press because you used a traditional publisher, are any of your books used in college courses? And of course we know the answer for those of you that choose to bash but have yet to publish anything using any method at all.

LloydBrown · Jan 16, 2007

I also see these same people bash every POD/Vanity publisher yet very few of them have had anything published using a traditional publisher.

Virtually everyone responding to you here has had multiple books accepted, published, and sold by real publishers. I know without checking that I have, Victoria has and Jim has. One of Uncle Jim's titles has sold at least 100,000 copies. I haven't reached that high a number, but I had a decent rate out of the gate. My first book's first print run sold 10k in 6 days. It's on it's 3rd printing, I think.

Your response does provide us with a bingo square, though. Yes, your reponse is so predictable that we make a game out of it (in fact, you've hit at least four squares). It's the same one offered at some point during the conversation by every vanity-published author.

There's a reason why everyone says a bad idea is a bad idea. If you want readers, vanity publishing doesn't help you much. If you want to self-publish despite all the advice otherwise, your choice of publishers isn't the most economically sound way to go.

Brian Smith · Jan 16, 2007

A first?
Check Aventine Press, check some others, you will find a 100% identical model paying less percentage. I shopped around a lot when looking for a publisher and seen this same model over and over again.

iUniverse has a terrible reputation that was scattered all over the Internet that wasn't hard to miss when I did my research. They have overpriced paperback books, low wholesale offered to booksellers, charge an extra fee to authors to make books returnable and sell books to authors at an overpriced fee. Yes they have a flat royalty that amounts to nothing because of all the money they charge.

victoriastrauss said:
Dragon touts its 83% royalties, but if you read the fine print you discover that royalties are paid on net (cover price less discount, which can be as high as 55% with the online booksellers) less printing costs. Other fee-based PODs, such as iUniverse, have a straightforward percentage-of-net royalty deal.

Also, since POD book prices are based on page count, the more expensive the book, the higher the printing cost. So the dollar amount of your Dragon royalty will actually decrease if you have a longer, higher-priced book.

I've seen a lot of strange stuff in the pay-to-publish world, but that's a first.

- Victoria

veinglory · Jan 16, 2007

There are a range of opinion in this board. Diverse, yes, mindlessly aggressive, no. Here is mine:

I stated only the obvious. Dragon has two owners who state they publish through dragon, you are one of only two people published through dragon. Even the simple fact that you host their website shows you are not just a random 'satisfied client'--you have a closer relationship to dragon than you disclosed in your first ever post here, inthat in that you deal with them other than in a client/service provider one way relationship. Why else would the self publishing owners put out your book before their own (if I accept your assertion, which I am not sure I do). You are being somewhere between misleading and deceptive in your statements which amount to spam. Dragon shows a similar habit of skirting the truth in their website.

Once you get over assuming we disagree with you because we are some kind of villain out to bash self-pubbers you might notice that many of us put a lot of energy into promoting self-published authors without any benefit to ourselves--and are, in fact, fairly outspoken proponants of marginalised publishing methods. We also put energy into investigating dubious claims and discussing less than wonderful deals. You might notcie that many of us actively suggested an alternative company, Lulu. They are a leading in the field and I recommend then widely, I even recommend reasonable fee-charging outfits like Aventine and iunerse. I am not anti-self pub--I am anti-dragon. Rebut my quanitative objections to their practises and I might reconsider.

Dragon posts very misleading (effectively false) material. I have yet to see a single area where they are better than a free service like Lulu and several areas where they a quanititatively worse. Once all the facts are out I will be happy to retract any false conclusion I drew--but I remain skeptical.

Dragon Publishing / Dragonpublishing.net

Brian Smith

Unimportant

No COVID yet. Still masking.

budha3

LloydBrown

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Unimportant

No COVID yet. Still masking.

Brian Smith

veinglory

volitare nequeo

veinglory

volitare nequeo

ColoradoGuy

I've seen worse.

veinglory

volitare nequeo

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless

aka eraser

Fish Whisperer

Unimportant

No COVID yet. Still masking.

citymouse

fantasy dweller

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

Brian Smith

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess

LloydBrown

Brian Smith

Brian Smith

Brian Smith

LloydBrown

Brian Smith

veinglory

volitare nequeo