Dear Mother of God... I'm Glad We're on Their Side

Robert Toy · Nov 18, 2006

greglondon said:
see. much easier.

Okay, let’s play – You stated “reality-based knowledge comes from repeated observation, and from extracting patterns from those observations, and that the 34-day war in Lebanon ... killed more than 1,200 Lebanese, mostly civilians, and 157 Israelis, mostly soldiers.”

First – One does not need repeated observation to obtain reality-based knowledge. Observing one real event is sufficient.

Second – I assume that you did not personally observe the war and casualties in Lebanon, therefore by your own statement have no reality-based knowledge of what actually took place. Only news reports and hearsay, which vary from report to report – check the UN figures or the Lebanon’s figures, etc., and you come up with different numbers.

Third – I find it quite amusing when people start throwing the latest buzz words/phrases around in an attempt to sound intelligent.

There are only two bases of knowledge, Reality-based-knowledge and Faith-based-knowledge. Having faith in the printed word does not make it reality.

greglondon · Nov 18, 2006

Robert Toy said:
Okay, let’s play – You stated “reality-based knowledge comes from repeated observation, and from extracting patterns from those observations, and that the 34-day war in Lebanon ... killed more than 1,200 Lebanese, mostly civilians, and 157 Israelis, mostly soldiers.”

First – One does not need repeated observation to obtain reality-based knowledge. Observing one real event is sufficient.

If you're trying to prove one fact, then you just have to observe that one fact. If you're trying to prove a pattern always emerges, like f=ma, then you need to show that the points on a graph follow the equation.

Robert Toy said:
Second – I assume that you did not personally observe the war and casualties in Lebanon, therefore by your own statement have no reality-based knowledge of what actually took place. Only news reports and hearsay, which vary from report to report – check the UN figures or the Lebanon’s figures, etc., and you come up with different numbers.

dclary posted a URL to an article. I read the article. I quoted one line from the article. If you would like to investigate the war, then we can accumulate a bunch of different sources, get their numbers for death tolls for the war, and then try to figure out what the real numbers probably were.

But on this board, last time we tried something liek that, we discussed the number of civilian casualties in Iraq since the US invaded. All the neocon chickenhawks keep saying its 50k no matter what evidence is brought forth. Iraq's new democratically elected government says the number is probably more like 150k. And another study says its probably 400k-800k.

If you want to have some real fun, try getting Rob to give some numbers on how many civilians were killed by Saddam from the end of the Iran-Iraq war (when we stopped supporting Saddam) and March 2003 when we invaded.

Robert Toy said:
Third – I find it quite amusing when people start throwing the latest buzz words/phrases around in an attempt to sound intelligent.

I used to be a rocket scientist way back when. If I was going to attempt to sound intelligent, I'd use something a little more advanced than the stuff they teach in Science 101.

Robert Toy · Nov 18, 2006

greglondon said:
[/font]

If you're trying to prove one fact, then you just have to observe that one fact. If you're trying to prove a pattern always emerges, like f=ma, then you need to show that the points on a graph follow the equation.

dclary posted a URL to an article. I read the article. I quoted one line from the article. If you would like to investigate the war, then we can accumulate a bunch of different sources, get their numbers for death tolls for the war, and then try to figure out what the real numbers probably were.

But on this board, last time we tried something liek that, we discussed the number of civilian casualties in Iraq since the US invaded. All the neocon chickenhawks keep saying its 50k no matter what evidence is brought forth. Iraq's new democratically elected government says the number is probably more like 150k. And another study says its probably 400k-800k.

If you want to have some real fun, try getting Rob to give some numbers on how many civilians were killed by Saddam from the end of the Iran-Iraq war (when we stopped supporting Saddam) and March 2003 when we invaded.

I used to be a rocket scientist way back when. If I was going to attempt to sound intelligent, I'd use something a little more advanced than the stuff they teach in Science 101.

Lots of nice words, but tap dancing is on another thread somewhere else. Do you actually read what you write?

The simple question remains, what was the point you were attempting to make in quoting war casualties?

BTW – Science 101 is the wrong course for this subject.

greglondon · Nov 18, 2006

Robert Toy said:
Lots of nice words, but tap dancing is on another thread somewhere else. Do you actually read what you write?

The simple question remains, what was the point you were attempting to make in quoting war casualties?

BTW – Science 101 is the wrong course for this subject.

You had three points in your last post.

1 – Observing one real event is sufficient.
2 – I assume that you did not personally observe the war
3 – I find it quite amusing when people ... attempt to sound intelligent.

I replied to all three. No tap dancing involved.

The simple question has already been answered. It was mentioned in dclary's URL. I posted it here. Extract whatever knowledge you can from it.

And Science 101 is exactly where you would learn about the "repeated empirical observations and the basis of the whole scientific method" that apparently numbed your mind and put you to sleep in another reply. Pretty much any basic intro college science course would do. So it's the right course for putting you to sleep.

robeiae · Nov 18, 2006

greglondon said:
The 34-day war in Lebanon ... killed more than 1,200 Lebanese, mostly civilians, and 157 Israelis, mostly soldiers.

Do you see a pattern in those numbers?

Hmm, let's see...34...1200...157...

No, I don't see a pattern in those numbers. Do you?

These numbers have a pattern: 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55...

Do you see it?

These have a pattern, also: 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17..

However, it's more difficult to spot, for most. Do you see it?

But on this board, last time we tried something liek that, we discussed the number of civilian casualties in Iraq since the US invaded. All the neocon chickenhawks keep saying its 50k no matter what evidence is brought forth. Iraq's new democratically elected government says the number is probably more like 150k. And another study says its probably 400k-800k.

Spin, wheel! Spin! Who, on this board, said it's definitely 50K? Come on, let's see the evidence.

If you want to have some real fun, try getting Rob to give some numbers on how many civilians were killed by Saddam from the end of the Iran-Iraq war (when we stopped supporting Saddam) and March 2003 when we invaded.

I don't see how that could be too much fun, since my answer would be "I don't know." And neither do you. Of course, you look for ways to minimize the numbers as a matter of course, even when it means misrepresenting information...

robeiae · Nov 18, 2006

Robert Toy said:
BTW – Science 101 is the wrong course for this subject.

greglondon · Nov 18, 2006

Another data point:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020252006

Israel’s "Operation Change of Direction" involved widespread attacks across Lebanon from land, sea and air, killing some 1,000 civilians.

Hizbullah launched thousands of Katyusha and other rockets on northern Israel, killing 43 civilians.

dclary · Nov 18, 2006

Bartholomew said:
I... I think these robot-wasps are abominable.

I hope they never see the light of day.

I'm sending one after your condemned penis!!!!!

dclary · Nov 18, 2006

greglondon said:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/23/africa/ME_GEN_Israel_Phosphorous_Weapons.php

If the geneva conventions ban such weapons against civilian centers... Maybe Hezbollah and its allies can stop f*cking fighting in civilian centers.

ETA so greg can understand: Israel's smart enough to put its soldiers in harm's way, so its civilians can remain safe. Hezbollah hides behind children and women when it opens fire, and then blames the deaths of its meat shields as inhumane zionistic aggression.

greglondon · Nov 18, 2006

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2006/08/22/israel_accused_of_war_crimes_in_lebanon/

Amnesty International accused Israel of war crimes ... said initial evidence, including the pattern and scope of the Israeli attacks, number of civilian casualties, widespread damage and statements by Israeli officials "indicate that such destruction was deliberate and part of a military strategy, rather than 'collateral damage.'"

1,183 people died, mostly civilians and about a third of them children,

dpaterso · Nov 18, 2006

Nothing we haven't seen before.

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/cgi-bin/gg101.cgi?date=20060927

-Derek

greglondon · Nov 18, 2006

Around 1,200 Lebanese, mostly civilians, and 157 Israelis, mostly soldiers, were killed

http://www.boston.com/news/world/mi...09/30/lebanon_sees_israeli_pullout_by_sunday/

I think I see a pattern consistent enough that we can at least tally the death toll with some reasonable certainty. Every source reports about the same numbers.

Robert Toy · Nov 18, 2006

greglondon said:
Around 1,200 Lebanese, mostly civilians, and 157 Israelis, mostly soldiers, were killed

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/09/30/lebanon_sees_israeli_pullout_by_sunday/

I think I see a pattern consistent enough that we can at least tally the death toll with some reasonable certainty. Every source reports about the same numbers.

With a near certainty we can almost, maybe predict that the probability of actual deaths as compared to reported deaths as being approximately equal to the square root of the average shoe size of white Anglo-Saxon males between the ages of 17-29 divided by the number of registered voters in Ohio.

I see a pattern emerging…it’s becoming clearer and it’s calling…Rob…Rob

I used to be a cattle rancher before I retired and I know what BS looks and smells like…and this is reminiscent of them thar days!

Bravo · Nov 18, 2006

oh get off it robert.

so any casualty number is suspect to you, from any source?

Robert Toy · Nov 18, 2006

Bravo said:
oh get off it robert.

so any casualty number is suspect to you, from any source?

No, the numbers are not the question.

The question is and has always been, what was the purpose of quoting them? Simple.

greglondon · Nov 18, 2006

Bravo said:
so any casualty number is suspect to you, from any source?

Unless it comes from George Bush himself.
But I doubt georgie can even count that high.

greglondon · Nov 18, 2006

Robert Toy said:
No, the numbers are not the question.

So, what you're saying is that your post here
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=931371&postcount=38
where the entire content of your message is simply to question
the numbers, what you're saying is that you were really just
being a (insert explitive of choice here)?

Robert Toy · Nov 18, 2006

greglondon said:
Unless it comes from George Bush himself.
But I doubt georgie can even count that high.

Robert Toy · Nov 18, 2006

greglondon said:
So, what you're saying is that your post here
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=931371&postcount=38
where the entire content of your message is simply to question
the numbers, what you're saying is that you were really just
being a (insert explitive of choice here)?

PITA or AH take your choice.

You still never provided a straight simple answer to the original question, as to the purpose. As most of us can read and did read the same URL, why pull that specific piece?

greglondon · Nov 18, 2006

Robert Toy said:
The question is and has always been, what was the purpose of quoting them?

THe purpose is to present a fact, because I'm a reality-based kind of guy. I don't think a person can have any certainty of knowledge if they don't have any facts. And here is one fact:

The 34-day war in Lebanon ... killed more than
1,200 Lebanese, mostly civilians, and
157 Israelis, mostly soldiers.

What was the purpose of demanding I draw some sort of conclusion before the fact was even established? That's a basic violation of those scientific principles which numbed your mind earlier.

Robert Toy · Nov 18, 2006

greglondon said:
[/font]If you want to have some real fun, try getting Rob to give some numbers on how many civilians were killed by Saddam from the end of the Iran-Iraq war (when we stopped supporting Saddam) and March 2003 when we invaded.

Since you brought up the subject:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE141342003?open&of=ENG-351

Robert Toy · Nov 18, 2006

greglondon said:
THe purpose is to present a fact, because I'm a reality-based kind of guy. I don't think a person can have any certainty of knowledge if they don't have any facts. And here is one fact:

The 34-day war in Lebanon ... killed more than
1,200 Lebanese, mostly civilians, and
157 Israelis, mostly soldiers.

What was the purpose of demanding I draw some sort of conclusion before the fact was even established? That's a basic violation of those scientific principles which numbed your mind earlier.

As I stated earlier, we all read the article.

Next, as a "reality-based kind of guy", pulling a figure from a single article and stating is fact is a bit of a contradiction, is it not? I have seen reports with figures much higher than your fact.

billythrilly7th · Nov 18, 2006

robeiae said:
Spin, wheel! Spin! Who, on this board, said it's definitely 50K? Come on, let's see the evidence.

We're still waiting, greg.

Or please post a retraction and an apology.

Thank you.

billythrilly7th · Nov 18, 2006

I'll take your silence as an admission of guilt and I'll assume that you would apologize for making a mistake and I accept your apology and now I'm going to watch the Ohio State/Michigan game.

I hope you've learned a good lesson about making slanderous, unsubstantiated statements. And I hope it makes you a better poster in the future.

Good luck.

Thank you.

Robert Toy · Nov 18, 2006

Hi billy watcha up to?

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