The AW Amazon Store
Buy books by AWers

 

Welcome to the AbsoluteWrite Water Cooler! Please read The Newbie Guide To Absolute Write

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 97

Thread: Breakneck Books / Variance Publishing / Deviation

  1. #1
    practical experience, FTW Silverhand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    262

    Breakneck Books / Variance Publishing / Deviation

    Hello all,

    Tonight I recieved an offer from Breakneck Books on my novel, Forge of the Gods: The Last Knight.

    I searched the index...and used the search tool for this particular board, but couldn't find a thread pertaining them.

    Now, I know we have an author here that goes through them - and I have been talking to him.

    What I want to know is if anyone else has ever read one of their books?

    Are they considered a reputable POD operation?

    There are no costs to me whatsoever, but I am being told straight up, that their is little chance of making into stores without first proving myself via other alternatives.

    Let's pretend for a moment that I have just a little bit of talent. If this is the case...and the book is actually good - what are my chances of actually succeeding using this type of publisher?

    I asked Mr. Robinson, the chief editor for BNB, if I could offer up his contract for review. He said by all means review the contract with others. If possible, I would like some help on that too.

    Any information would be a great asset.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Silverhand; 09-15-2006 at 12:07 PM.
    Eric B. Fogle
    Forge of the God: The Last Knight
    www.ericfogle.com
    (Order now!)

  2. #2
    Moderator In Name Only AW Moderator Roger J Carlson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    12,816
    I don't have information about this publisher, but I'd rather ask you what YOU want out of this publication? If you want a book printed that you can show your friends and family then this might be for you. But if you want a lot of people to read it, then you're probably heading for dissapointment.

    Even if they are reputable, chances are you'll sell very few books and those will be hard sells that you personally make. You'll likely spend more money on promotion than books sales will ever return. What's more, the publication of this book won't help the capture the eye of a real publisher for your next book.

    I can't tell you what to do, but for myself, I turned down 3 POD deals. Two were so-called "subsidy publishing" (aka vanity press) and one was a straight up POD publisher. However, none offered an advance, nor did they actively edit the manuscripts. Any of these would be considered "vanity" by the publishing industry. I would not be eligible for membership in SFWA (Science Fiction Writers of America) because of this publication. Lastly, it wouldn't count for anything when I try to get an agent or publisher for my next book.

    For myself, I'm going to keep plugging at the traditional publishing route because when I succeed, it will be real success.
    --Roger J. Carlson

  3. #3
    Your Genial Uncle Absolute Sage James D. Macdonald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    25,396
    A start-up POD publisher that doesn't pay advances and doesn't anticipate bookstore shelving.

    http://www.breakneckbooks.com/faq.html

    A book that's publishable by one is publishable by many. Aim high.

  4. #4
    Writer Beware Goddess Absolute Sage victoriastrauss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Far from the madding crowd
    Posts
    6,668
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverhand
    There are no costs to me whatsoever, but I am being told straight up, that their is little chance of making into stores without first proving myself via other alternatives.
    Authors do need to take a hand in their own promotion. However, it's not the author's job to get his book into stores--that's the publisher's job. Authors don't have access to the sales channels of the book trade. Sure, you can go door to door and perhaps persuade some of your local booksellers to stock your book--but for national or even regional placement, the publisher needs to have a distribution arrangement in place (other than Ingram or Baker & Taylor, which are wholesalers, and simply make your book available for order). A publisher that tells you that you're responsible for getting stores to stock your book is basically telling you that it doesn't have distribution capacity.
    I asked Mr. Robinson, the chief editor for BNB, if I could offer up his contract for review. He said by all means review the contract with others. If possible, I would like some help on that too.
    I'd be glad to have a look and comment, and I'm sure Uncle Jim would too.

    - Victoria

  5. #5
    Now departed. Rest in peace, Scott, from all of us at AW Requiescat In Pace Popeyesays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,462
    James 1611, a member on this board, published his book Chronicles of Soon through Breakneck. Why not send him a PM and ask how it's going?

    Roger I noticed your tag line again and would offer a counter:

    "There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who read binary and those who don't."

    There are three kinds of people in the world: Those who count, and those who don't.

    Regards,
    Scott
    [B]Okay, damnit, I blog [URL]http://cscottsaylorsbooks.blogspot.com/[/URL][/B]
    [B]Sword of the Dajjal[/B] e-book, [SIZE=2]Published by BooksForABuck.com May, 2007 ISBN: 978-1-602-052-2 [URL]http://www.booksforabuck.com/sfpages/sf_07/sword_dajjal.html[/URL][/SIZE]
    Out in print early 2008 from Blu Phi'er[URL="http://www.fictionwise.com/eBooks/eBook47261.htm?cached"][/URL]
    [B]Jars of Doom[/B] out mid 2008 from Blu Phi'er
    [URL]http://www.bluphier.com/[/URL]

  6. #6
    practical experience, FTW Silverhand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    262
    Popeyes, I am already in contact with James. Saying that, it is very hard not to be biased when everything is coming together. Thus, I am coming here to ask people have outside opinions.

    Victoria,
    Mr. Robinson has stated that I need to help in marketing, but I am not solely liable to for it. By other alternatives...I am talking about online sales, regional stores, etc. His concern...from a business standpoint is a good one. Because they are small, if they ordered 20k books, distributed them, and were wrong...poof they go under. From what I understand, they want to see X amount of online sales before they take a novel to the next step. As an executive in a small corporation I can understand this...but is this normal practice in the publishing world?

    Oh, I just want to clarify...that BNB does not charge for editing. If I am correct they use a pair of in-house editors? James, if you're reading, you know better then I do...can ye help with this?
    Eric B. Fogle
    Forge of the God: The Last Knight
    www.ericfogle.com
    (Order now!)

  7. #7
    Writer Beware Goddess Absolute Sage victoriastrauss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Far from the madding crowd
    Posts
    6,668
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverhand
    His concern...from a business standpoint is a good one. Because they are small, if they ordered 20k books, distributed them, and were wrong...poof they go under. As an executive in a small corporation I can understand this...but is this normal practice in the publishing world?
    Someone who is serious about establishing a publisher will create a business plan and find a way to raise the capital needed to support the company until it (hopefully) becomes profitable...just like any other business owner. Ask yourself what kind of business is so undercapitalized that it can't afford to produce its own product in quantity, and needs to rely on its authors--who have no access to the channels through which books are traditionally sold--as an unpaid sales force. Again, I'm not saying this publisher isn't well-intentioned, but it isn't offering you anything more in the way of distribution and exposure than you'd get with iUniverse or one of the other POD self-publishing services.

    - Victoria

  8. #8
    Cultus Gopherus MacAllister Medievalist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    An meodoheall monig dreama full
    Posts
    25,525
    I think the publisher is very well intentioned, but somewhat naive. I don't see them offering authors anything at all that they might not do better on their own, using Lulu. They're not commericially viable and have no bookstore sales force -- it's those sales folks who make most of a book's sales, whether it's a trade fiction, non-fiction, or a textbook. You must have a sales force; online marketing, with the rare exception of a very narrowly focussed niche book, can't possibly compete with a knowledgable live sales force.

    AW Admin: This account is rarely active
    About.Me
    AWers On Twitter
    Lisa L. Spangenberg
    My opinions are my own. | Who else would want them?

  9. #9
    practical experience, FTW james1611's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    The Land of Nod
    Posts
    346

    Smile My 2 cents

    Quote Originally Posted by victoriastrauss
    Someone who is serious about establishing a publisher will create a business plan and find a way to raise the capital needed to support the company until it (hopefully) becomes profitable...just like any other business owner. Ask yourself what kind of business is so undercapitalized that it can't afford to produce its own product in quantity, and needs to rely on its authors--who have no access to the channels through which books are traditionally sold--as an unpaid sales force. Again, I'm not saying this publisher isn't well-intentioned, but it isn't offering you anything more in the way of distribution and exposure than you'd get with iUniverse or one of the other POD self-publishing services.

    - Victoria
    Actually, I would disagree on the point of nothing more to offer than Iuniverse or other vanity presses.

    You have to pay those printers to publish your book and they make money from the author buying untold quantities of their own title...this is the way they are set up and everyone on this board knows that is different than a small press using POD for printing and Lighting Source / Ingram for distribution.

    But we must be honest...there are a number of small presses and they have limited ability to get books in stores because of the way bookstores and publishers function on a returns model.

    there are a number of other authors on this board who are published through smaller presses and so forth...some are with middle sized presses--and I haven't seen any of them in chain bookstores for sale.
    Having returns means...you might get in a bookstore, but only if you end up in the distributors catalog that sells to them and only if they think your title looks like a good one to stock...a lot of ifs.

    So, as an author and I say this to Eric and all others...decide for yourself how you have found the whole big publisher submission / rejection process...do you have high hopes at this point?--then by all means keep on plugging away at it.
    If you are tired of it and in Eric's case you have an offer from a smaller publisher like BNB then I would recommend it, based on my personal experiences with this particular company. I've got an ARC in my hands that looks great in comparison with big publisher titles (Inside and Out, very professional looking).

    As to success, in response to a comment by Roger: He said that he will wait for a big publisher, so that his success will be REAL SUCCESS--to that comment I would point out the wonderful and realistic article from over at Velluminous Press (another P.o.d. Publisher).

    As to Mr. Robinson's success, in a year he's sold a lot of books and that was just through lulu.com with his first fiction title. He gives full details on where he stands over at Amazon.com on his author PLOG.

    For my first fiction effort, The Chronicles of Soone, I am very happy with my experience with Breakneck Books, but I know who my publisher is, I never paid a dime, its traditionally published and as far as sales--we'll see what happens--even big published novels aren't sure fire success.

    Its a personal choice--one I've been pleased with...my 2 cents.

    James

  10. #10

    Wink As a book reviewer

    As someone that has reviewed one of Breakneck Book's titles POD PEOPLE: Beating the Print on Demand Stigma, By Jeremy Robinson, I have to say that the product was very professionally done.

    Having reviewed books by another small press, Velluminous Press Publishing and also Breakneck Books as well as a number of LULU.com authors, and also Greg Vilk's, Golem, through Ricochet Press, I would say that the quality I've seen out of these small presses is far superior to the self published books I've recieved so far.

    Also: Because these small press books have gone through the submission process and then been critiqued and ultimately accepted...they tend to be much more enjoyable to read. Why? Because they had to pass the muster at the publisher first.
    These are things you don't find at vanity presses. Everything gets through so they can sell to the author. One of Velluminous Press' titles, Miss Alice Merriwether's Long Lost Cakes, was even featured and praised highly over at girl-on-demand's POD-DY MOUTH BLOG and its seen by many even quoted in Entertainment Weekly. So, perhaps we should be careful before we dismiss the efforts of the small presses so easily.

    We at Podlings cater to the small presses and self published and the small presses have not disappointed us so far. As far as publishers like Velluminous Press and Breakneck Books, we see some good things coming out of them and hope to review more of there offerings in the future as well as any other quality small presses out there.

    Podlingmaster


    Visit and submit your self published, or small to medium press novels for review at P.O.D.LINGS. We review in the genres of Thrillers, Action-Adventure, Science Fiction and some Fantasy. (We also will review YA in these genres as well)
    Submit query email to pod_master1(at)yahoo.com

  11. #11
    practical experience, FTW Tsu Dho Nimh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    West Enchilada, NM
    Posts
    1,529
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverhand
    There are no costs to me whatsoever, but I am being told straight up, that their is little chance of making into stores without first proving myself via other alternatives.
    Told by whom? How many agents that accept your genre have seen your queries and rejected the manuscript?

    With Breakneck, there is an even smaller chance of making it into the stores. Because they are POD, the stores will not have them on the shelves.

    "Can I buy Breakneck books at my local bookstore? You can order Breakneck books through your local bookstore, but chances are they will not be sitting on the shelf. Why? The books are print-on-demand and as such are not typically returnable. Bookstores will not buy books they cannot send back. As Breakneck grows, we will make our titles returnable, but we need to be prepared for the financial risk when we do so. Having 50,000 copies ordered would be fantastic...having 45,000 of those returned would be devastating. Make sense?"

  12. #12
    practical experience, FTW james1611's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    The Land of Nod
    Posts
    346

    Lightbulb Choices, Choices, Choices

    Eric,

    I would say that you are doing well to even have the choice.

    Just out of curiosity though, weren't you in contract with LBP before they went under financially?
    If you were comfortable with what Luna was offering then you basically are looking at the same setup at Breakneck Books. Except of course, that LBP is now going to a subsidy co-publishing model and BNB is traditional all the way; small but traditional.

    There may be a number of people at A.W. that have submitted at BNB and have been rejected. That's coming through the grapevine of course, so you should weigh your options and your goals and then make this decision yourself. I know from our conversations that you have been frustrated with the other avenues you've been following and that you have seriously considered self publication with this book. Having been there myself, I can honestly say that I'm glad I went with BNB and have had a wonderful experience. My book is almost out and the ARC version I already have is very nice--I'd stand it up against any other I've seen anyday--very professional and eye catching inside and out. For any naysayers of the quality, I would say "hey, buy my book in November and see--or there's a fiction title coming out in a week or so, Raising the Past, by J. Robinson."

    my reasoning is this:
    "If you're going to publish with a small press, then it might be good if they:
    1.) have great quality in the books (yes--buy one and see!)
    2.) and if they have been proven book sellers in the past, especially thru online and bookstore orders (5000 copies of a lulu book in one year, foreign language rights sold--hmmm--yes!)--(not to mention 2 other books out and selling)
    3.) and it would be an extra bonus if your fellow author is backed by a famous author (James Rollins--oh, yes!)
    4.)and if that author has a nice sized fanbase ready to buy his book and the buyer sees your book right next to it on the website and they see an advertisement for your book inside that book they just bought (oh, yes!)

    For going thru a small press those aren't bad things to have going for you.
    So Eric, its your choice man--I don't make anything from it, but personally I'm rooting for you, since I know how frustrated you've been and your disappointment at losing your contract at LBP.

    Just my other 2 cents worth...hey I've lost 4 cents on this thread, dang!

    --james

  13. #13
    Moderator In Name Only AW Moderator Roger J Carlson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    12,816
    Quote Originally Posted by james1611
    As to success, in response to a comment by Roger: He said that he will wait for a big publisher, so that his success will be REAL SUCCESS--to that comment I would point out the wonderful and realistic article from over at Velluminous Press (another P.o.d. Publisher).
    If you're going to quote me, do it properly. I said, "For myself, I'm going to keep plugging at the traditional publishing route because when I succeed, it will be real success." Note, I said "traditional publishing route" not "big publisher" and I did not capitalize "real success".

    The link is an interesting article, though it doesn't say anything that Uncle Jim hasn't said several times here. I AM confused, however, what you think that has to do with my view of success.
    --Roger J. Carlson

  14. #14
    Fear the Death Ray maestrowork's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    wgasa
    Posts
    43,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Popeyesays
    "There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who read binary and those who don't."

    There are three kinds of people in the world: Those who count, and those who don't.
    Obviously, you don't know what 10 (binary) is...

    Anyway, "non-traditional" (I won't use POD since that's a technology) publishers have the following stacked against them:

    - lack of return policy. Book stores simply won't consider anything (except maybe your local mom and pop indies) non-returnable
    - lack of substantial discounts. POD books are generally too expensive, and they can't offer the 40-50% discounts
    - lack of distribution. Granted, small traditional presses have the same problem, but at least most are trying, and they do want to sell books. A lot of vanity/POD such as iUniverse does not "sell" books for you
    - lack of credibility. Most stores have not heard of the publisher or if they have, they think of them as vanity or "poor quality" publishers.

    Shelf space is at a premium. Even books from big publishers don't usually get shelf space. What separates a real publisher from "vanity" is that the publisher seriously is in the business to sell books, and they don't depend on the authors to sell them out of the trunks of their cars. If they can't get national distribution, they will find some other ways. That's their business.

    When you consider a publisher, make sure you understand what their business model is and how they're going to make money. Go in only with your eyes wide open and feet firmly on the ground.
    Last edited by maestrowork; 09-16-2006 at 05:25 AM.

    I didn't want to work. It was as simple as that. I distrusted work, disliked it. I thought it was a very bad thing that the human race had unfortunately invented for itself.
    -- Agatha Christie





    The Pacific Between • A Bunch of Stories
    (2006 IPPY Award)

    WIP: Beyond the Banyan Tree - draft 9, 125,000 words

    Home Page | Blog | Reviews

  15. #15
    practical experience, FTW james1611's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    The Land of Nod
    Posts
    346

    Unhappy please don't be offended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger J Carlson
    If you're going to quote me, do it properly. I said, "For myself, I'm going to keep plugging at the traditional publishing route because when I succeed, it will be real success." Note, I said "traditional publishing route" not "big publisher" and I did not capitalize "real success".

    The link is an interesting article, though it doesn't say anything that Uncle Jim hasn't said several times here. I AM confused, however, what you think that has to do with my view of success.
    Not trying to anger you Roger--I was just paraphrasing.

    The point is BNB is actually a Traditional Publisher--its not subsidy or vanity. Using digital printing doesn't change that fact. So wouldn't that be mis-information by you? Since you don't appear to equate BNB as traditional, yet it actually is.

    I was actually assuming you meant big publisher since you lumped BNB in with some non-traditional route of publishing--which is not correct. I'm not trying to argue, since I believe the definition is very well established here at the watercooler and many of its published authors are published through smaller presses. BNB is small, but very much a traditional (author doesn't pay, they edit, pay all costs, format, cover art, etc.) Publisher.

    And as I said previously, success in publishing doesn't come in a can that says New York City on the label. Many authors published through larger publishers are frustrated and not selling books. That article does well to provide the basic stats of what one might expect. Being on the midlist in a larger house doesn't equal success. And as we all know--it's a mystery as to what actually makes a best seller out of one book and not another.

    I like success, based on my personal goals. That's easier to achieve.

    2 more cents--I'm gonna have to get change for a dollar soon.

    --James

  16. #16
    Moderator In Name Only AW Moderator Roger J Carlson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    12,816
    Quote Originally Posted by james1611
    The point is BNB is actually a Traditional Publisher--its not subsidy or vanity. Using digital printing doesn't change that fact. So wouldn't that be mis-information by you? Since you don't appear to equate BNB as traditional, yet it actually is.
    We seem to have differing definitions of traditional publisher. Thanks okay. You can have whatever definition you like. My definition of a traditional publisher is one that 1) pays an advance, 2) edits my book, 3) prints large quantities of books, ie not POD, 4) has a sales force to convince retail stores to stock the book, and 5) actually stocks books in stores. By my definition, BNB is not a traditional publisher...at least, it's not the kind of publisher I want to publish my book

    Quote Originally Posted by james1611
    And as I said previously, success in publishing doesn't come in a can that says New York City on the label. Many authors published through larger publishers are frustrated and not selling books. That article does well to provide the basic stats of what one might expect. Being on the midlist in a larger house doesn't equal success. And as we all know--it's a mystery as to what actually makes a best seller out of one book and not another.
    You presume to know a lot about what I consider success. How do you know that being on the midlist isn't my idea of success? How do you know I wouldn't be happy with that? Personally, I would view being on the midlist at a larger house much more of a success than being top of the list at a small POD outfit. I will have sold more books.

    But here's my actual definition of success. My first book will be a real success if its sale helps me to sell my next book to another traditional publisher (see my definition above). Then those two books help sell my third book, and so on. I'm just not convinced that a sale to BNB will mean anything the next time I approach an agent or publisher. However, a sale to Tor or Penguin will.

    That's what I think success is, and that's why I wouldn't publish my book with BNB.
    --Roger J. Carlson

  17. #17

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by maestrowork
    Obviously, you don't know what 10 (binary) is...

    Anyway, "non-traditional" (I won't use POD since that's a technology) publishers have the following stacked against them:

    - lack of return policy. Book stores simply won't consider anything (except maybe your local mom and pop indies) non-returnable
    - lack of substantial discounts. POD books are generally too expensive, and they can't offer the 40-50% discounts
    - lack of distribution. Granted, small traditional presses have the same problem, but at least most are trying, and they do want to sell books. A lot of vanity/POD such as iUniverse does not "sell" books for you
    - lack of credibility. Most stores have not heard of the publisher or if they have, they think of them as vanity or "poor quality" publishers.

    Shelf space is at a premium. Even books from big publishers don't usually get shelf space. What separates a real publisher from "vanity" is that the publisher seriously is in the business to sell books, and they don't depend on the authors to sell them out of the trunks of their cars. If they can't get national distribution, they will find some other ways. That's their business.

    When you consider a publisher, make sure you understand what their business model is and how they're going to make money. Go in only with your eyes wide open and feet firmly on the ground.
    Good points. But what Publisher doesn't want to sell books?? Vanity presses sell to the authors; that's how they make their money. Any publisher that doesn't sell books by the vanity model wants to sell books to readers. Online, bookstores, whatever, they all want to sell books. That's not a way to separate a publisher unless they plan to sell to the author. I'm not sure any of these small presses are selling out of the back of their cars...you are being sarcastic I assume.

    Entertainment Weekly just featured several books praised over at Pod-dy Mouth including a very good title called Miss Alice Merriwether's Long Lost Cakes, by another small press similar to Breakneck Books--Velluminous Press. To me that's not to shabby.

    I would be interested in seeing some sales figures for some of A.W. authors in larger ventures in comparison to some of these other presses to see really how big the sales differences are? That's probably a loaded statement but it would be interesting to see. There are many nuances to Publishing and selling a book: What distribution, to which stores (independent or big chain), Spine out on the shelf or cover out and in the front of the store, Online at Amazon, Ordered through the chains but not sitting in them, etc...it's all very interesting and each part plays in actual sales. Not to mention of course, the most important ones--A Good Story and Word of Mouth!

    Podlingmaster


    Visit and submit your self published, or small to medium press novels for review at P.O.D.LINGS. We review in the genres of Thrillers, Action-Adventure, Science Fiction and some Fantasy. (We also will review YA in these genres as well)
    Submit query email to pod_master1(at)yahoo.com

  18. #18
    practical experience, FTW james1611's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    The Land of Nod
    Posts
    346

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger J Carlson
    We seem to have differing definitions of traditional publisher. Thanks okay. You can have whatever definition you like. My definition of a traditional publisher is one that 1) pays an advance, 2) edits my book, 3) prints large quantities of books, ie not POD, 4) has a sales force to convince retail stores to stock the book, and 5) actually stocks books in stores. By my definition, BNB is not a traditional publisher...at least, it's not the kind of publisher I want to publish my book

    You presume to know a lot about what I consider success. How do you know that being on the midlist isn't my idea of success? How do you know I wouldn't be happy with that? Personally, I would view being on the midlist at a larger house much more of a success than being top of the list at a small POD outfit. I will have sold more books.

    But here's my actual definition of success. My first book will be a real success if its sale helps me to sell my next book to another traditional publisher (see my definition above). Then those two books help sell my third book, and so on. I'm just not convinced that a sale to BNB will mean anything the next time I approach an agent or publisher. However, a sale to Tor or Penguin will.

    That's what I think success is, and that's why I wouldn't publish my book with BNB.
    Well, that sounds like a good goal, but have you been accepted for publication by TOR or Penguin?

    If so, that's great. Being midlist doesn't mean you will have better sells than someone else...that's the kind of statement that should have actual numbers of books sold backing it up. If you haven't sold any then your statement is fairly meaningless.

    I mean, by way of example--say a top dog small press author or self published author sells 5000 copies of their book in a year. And say you in the midlist actually sell 5000 copies of your book at Penguin. Who made more money--well it depends on whether you got that advance...but you might not see any royalty after returns and so forth and your advance may not be anymore than the small guy who just got his no return royalty from the book sales and a higher royalty than big publishers give.

    Who is more successful and I don't think 5000 copies is grossly understating a years sales for a first time midlister--if thats incorrect please someone show me their first midlist sales for a year and correct me. But who was more successful in the scenario, since both sold 5000 books. To the Industry--the small guy that did it without all of the big publisher marketing, distribution and financial backing is definitely the more successful, because those figures would be sad for a large house...goodbye second book deal.

    change for a dollar,
    James

  19. #19
    Moderator In Name Only AW Moderator Roger J Carlson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    12,816
    Quote Originally Posted by james1611
    Well, that sounds like a good goal, but have you been accepted for publication by TOR or Penguin?

    If so, that's great. Being midlist doesn't mean you will have better sells than someone else...that's the kind of statement that should have actual numbers of books sold backing it up. If you haven't sold any then your statement is fairly meaningless.

    I mean, by way of example--say a top dog small press author or self published author sells 5000 copies of their book in a year. And say you in the midlist actually sell 5000 copies of your book at Penguin.
    You chide me for making a meaningless statement because I haven't backed it up with numbers. And then you create numbers out of thin air to support your point. Whose statement is meaningless now?

    First of all, I will agree that 5000 books is doable from Penguin. But you've shown no proof that any BNB author has anywhere near that sales. With no distribution, I'd guess the top sellers sell far less. That's a guess, true, but all you've done is guess at numbers too.

    Quote Originally Posted by james1611
    Who made more money--well it depends on whether you got that advance...but you might not see any royalty after returns and so forth and your advance may not be anymore than the small guy who just got his no return royalty from the book sales and a higher royalty than big publishers give.
    This was not part of my definition of success. I'm more interested in the long haul.

    Quote Originally Posted by james1611
    Who is more successful and I don't think 5000 copies is grossly understating a years sales for a first time midlister--if thats incorrect please someone show me their first midlist sales for a year and correct me. But who was more successful in the scenario, since both sold 5000 books. To the Industry--the small guy that did it without all of the big publisher marketing, distribution and financial backing is definitely the more successful, because those figures would be sad for a large house...goodbye second book deal.
    I think you're fooling yourself here. The publishing industry will see sales from Penguin as far more important than through a POD press like BNB. That's assuming you sell those 5000 books, which you've not established a case for.

    Here's a test for you. Since your book is a fantasy, why don't you apply for membership in SFWA. Publishing a book with a traditional publisher (not vanity press) will qualify you for membership. If they will accept it, that's a pretty good indication of whether the industry as a whole would consider it traditionally published.
    --Roger J. Carlson

  20. #20
    Now departed. Rest in peace, Scott, from all of us at AW Requiescat In Pace Popeyesays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,462
    SFWA has a list of publishers they accept--Breakneck is not on it, maybe it never will be.

    To qualify as one of those publishers there must be a "significant" advance. Breakneck's $500 won't make that cut, provided you get that much.

    Author's Guild probably won't accept it, though the the National Writer's Union will, and so would RWA.

    Anyway, you offered James a cut of the cards, but they're 'readers' and you know what every card in the deck is. It's a sucker's bet. I think it's walking the "respect your fellow writer's" gray line a little closely.

    James made a sale, could he have made it to a regular house? Maybe, maybe not? Is it better to let the book die or to let it on the field in a productive manner to do as it can?

    I don't know.

    Mocking each other, won't help either argument's position much.

    Just my $.02........ I don't want to offend anyone, but maybe it's time to withdraw to a neutral corner and weight for the count of eight.



    Regards,
    Scott
    [B]Okay, damnit, I blog [URL]http://cscottsaylorsbooks.blogspot.com/[/URL][/B]
    [B]Sword of the Dajjal[/B] e-book, [SIZE=2]Published by BooksForABuck.com May, 2007 ISBN: 978-1-602-052-2 [URL]http://www.booksforabuck.com/sfpages/sf_07/sword_dajjal.html[/URL][/SIZE]
    Out in print early 2008 from Blu Phi'er[URL="http://www.fictionwise.com/eBooks/eBook47261.htm?cached"][/URL]
    [B]Jars of Doom[/B] out mid 2008 from Blu Phi'er
    [URL]http://www.bluphier.com/[/URL]

  21. #21
    Cultus Gopherus MacAllister Medievalist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    An meodoheall monig dreama full
    Posts
    25,525
    Does Breakneck accept returns yet? They didn't last time I checked.

    Does Breakneck have a knowledgeable sales force that visits bookstores with samples, collaterals (at the very least a package for leads), produce printed quarterly catalogs, get reviewed by the standard trades, and place ads in the standard trades and specialty publications?

    Do they have LOC CIP data for their books?

    Are their books designed and typeset by professionals?

    AW Admin: This account is rarely active
    About.Me
    AWers On Twitter
    Lisa L. Spangenberg
    My opinions are my own. | Who else would want them?

  22. #22
    Moderator In Name Only AW Moderator Roger J Carlson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    12,816
    Quote Originally Posted by Popeyesays
    SFWA has a list of publishers they accept--Breakneck is not on it, maybe it never will be.

    To qualify as one of those publishers there must be a "significant" advance. Breakneck's $500 won't make that cut, provided you get that much.

    Author's Guild probably won't accept it, though the the National Writer's Union will, and so would RWA.

    Anyway, you offered James a cut of the cards, but they're 'readers' and you know what every card in the deck is. It's a sucker's bet. I think it's walking the "respect your fellow writer's" gray line a little closely.
    In fact, I did not know that SFWA had a list of accepted publishers (though now that you mention it, it makes sense). I did not know SFWA required an advance of any kind. I did not offer James a sucker bet, and in fact, as I make the suggestion, I was worried that I would be wrong. Thanks for reassuring me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Popeyesays
    Mocking each other, won't help either argument's position much.
    I have mocked no one.
    Mock: v.
    1.to attack or treat with ridicule, contempt, or derision. 2.to ridicule by mimicry of action or speech; mimic derisively. 3.to mimic, imitate, or counterfeit. 4.to challenge; defy: His actions mock convention. 5.to deceive, delude, or disappoint.

    I have not attacked nor ridiculed nor treated with contempt or derision. I have not mimicked, or deceived or deluded. I have challenged James, but not in the sense that the definition implies.
    --Roger J. Carlson

  23. #23
    Now departed. Rest in peace, Scott, from all of us at AW Requiescat In Pace Popeyesays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Medievalist
    Does Breakneck accept returns yet? They didn't last time I checked.

    Does Breakneck have a knowledgeable sales force that visits bookstores with samples, collaterals (at the very least a package for leads), produce printed quarterly catalogs, get reviewed by the standard trades, and place ads in the standard trades and specialty publications?

    Do they have LOC CIP data for their books?

    Are their books designed and typeset by professionals?
    1. No, I don't think they do, and they won't get any bookstore placement til they do.

    2. Probably not, and they won'[t get serious bookstore placement til they do.

    3. Reviews by the trades? No, I don't think so. And they're unlikely to get serious bookstore placement til they do.

    4. I would assume they have LOC registration, but if they don't, I would certainly do it myself and anyone who goes with them should be prepared to see it done.

    5. "Professional"?
    Main Entry: 1pro·fes·sion·al
    Pronunciation: pr&-'fesh-n&l, -'fe-sh&-n&l
    Function: adjective
    1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a
    profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
    2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular
    profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
    3 : following a line of conduct as though it were a
    profession <a professional patriot>

    What precisely do you mean by the term?

    The question still remains: Is it better to let the book just waste away or to seek reputable publication. In this instance I mean reputable as being NOT vanity publication, subsidy publication, or scam publishers like PA.

    If it won't go mainstream, is it shameful in some way to find an alternative means?

    I don't think so.

    If Breakneck had offered me the slot instead of James1611, I would have been bothered by the lack of returns, and catalogues and sales staff.

    Most of you know that I selected or was selected by a micro press. At least they provide discounts and returns. I used to sell and design commercial printing material. If worse comes to worst, I can design a catalogue and give it to the publisher, at least the discounts go as deep as 55% and there is full returnability. I know sales, I know how to design programs for it. I don't want to do much of that for my book or the publisher, but I can devote some effort to it if the publisher is out of their depth dealing with it.

    One man's
    is another man's

    Speaking in a non-gender specific manner, of course.

    Really, if someone has arrived at an informed decision, let him have it. It's no one else's concern but his. That even goes for those who CHOOSE PA in an informed manner, however statistically tiny that number might be. I don't think anyone has the right to try to persuade another toward or away from a decision they have to make for themselves

    Regards,
    Scott
    [B]Okay, damnit, I blog [URL]http://cscottsaylorsbooks.blogspot.com/[/URL][/B]
    [B]Sword of the Dajjal[/B] e-book, [SIZE=2]Published by BooksForABuck.com May, 2007 ISBN: 978-1-602-052-2 [URL]http://www.booksforabuck.com/sfpages/sf_07/sword_dajjal.html[/URL][/SIZE]
    Out in print early 2008 from Blu Phi'er[URL="http://www.fictionwise.com/eBooks/eBook47261.htm?cached"][/URL]
    [B]Jars of Doom[/B] out mid 2008 from Blu Phi'er
    [URL]http://www.bluphier.com/[/URL]

  24. #24
    Now departed. Rest in peace, Scott, from all of us at AW Requiescat In Pace Popeyesays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,462
    Quote Originally Posted by maestrowork
    Obviously, you don't know what 10 (binary) is...
    Hey, I speak EBCIDIC!

    [B]Okay, damnit, I blog [URL]http://cscottsaylorsbooks.blogspot.com/[/URL][/B]
    [B]Sword of the Dajjal[/B] e-book, [SIZE=2]Published by BooksForABuck.com May, 2007 ISBN: 978-1-602-052-2 [URL]http://www.booksforabuck.com/sfpages/sf_07/sword_dajjal.html[/URL][/SIZE]
    Out in print early 2008 from Blu Phi'er[URL="http://www.fictionwise.com/eBooks/eBook47261.htm?cached"][/URL]
    [B]Jars of Doom[/B] out mid 2008 from Blu Phi'er
    [URL]http://www.bluphier.com/[/URL]

  25. #25
    Cultus Gopherus MacAllister Medievalist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    An meodoheall monig dreama full
    Posts
    25,525
    Quote Originally Posted by Popeyesays
    1. No, I don't think they do, and they won't get any bookstore placement til they do.

    2. Probably not, and they won'[t get serious bookstore placement til they do.

    3. Reviews by the trades? No, I don't think so. And they're unlikely to get serious bookstore placement til they do.

    4. I would assume they have LOC registration, but if they don't, I would [certainly do it myself and anyone who goes with them should be prepared to see it done.
    I think you need to read the LOC CIP site here; you can't do it yourself. Your publisher must file the CIP request. I'm not sure Breakneck meets the basic requirements.

    What precisely do you mean by the term?
    I mean someone who has either extensive experience, as in many years, of designing and typesetting books, or, preferably, a combination of experience and training. Usually, book design and typsetting are done by two different people. Breakneck has found some decent cover artists, but the one book of theirs I've seen, a book about POD publishing, was not up to standard in terms of typesetting. It looked like a straight word processor dump. That was their very first book though, and I expect they've done better since.

    The question still remains: Is it better to let the book just waste away or to seek reputable publication. In this instance I mean reputable as being NOT vanity publication, subsidy publication, or scam publishers like PA.

    If it won't go mainstream, is it shameful in some way to find an alternative means?
    Of course it's not shameful. My question is:

    How does the author know it "won't go mainstream?"

    What is the author getting? What couldn't authors do possibly better, by doing it themselves? What's the added value? Other than cover art, I don't see any added value.

    Good books deserve the best; why settle?
    Last edited by Medievalist; 09-16-2006 at 10:38 AM.

    AW Admin: This account is rarely active
    About.Me
    AWers On Twitter
    Lisa L. Spangenberg
    My opinions are my own. | Who else would want them?

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Custom Search