Being a critic

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brianm

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I'm not sure if this is where this thread should be, but I wanted to touch on the subject. Please feel free to move it if I have started it in the wrong area. That said...

Through my life I have learned to gleen something positive that makes me grow as a person/artist from good and bad critics. You are never as good as the great critique and never as bad as the really horrid one.

But, in AW, we are here to support and give constructive critiques to help our fellow writers become the best they can be as writers.

However, I have noticed in AW that there are members who just want to see their own writings and make smartass comments when they do a critique. That's not constructive. And it only makes you, the long-winded smartass, look immature and unprofessional.

I am not starting this thread because of things said about my work. It's just an overview of what I have seen while reading critiques on AW.

Forgive the title... I meant to write "Being a critic..." Is there a way to go back and correct the spelling?
 
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SpookyWriter

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brianm said:
Forgive the title...I just realized I meant it to read..."Being a critic..." and have no idea how to correct the spelling.
Personally, I think the title speaks volumes for what you've expressed about yourself, others, and attitude so far. :)
 

veinglory

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I think that if you want to suggest people be more constructive in critiques you should make an effort to express this in a constructive way yourself. For example by suggesting what makes for a useful critique and opening a disucssion. If a person really is making a smart *** comment, report it to a moderator. however as a reader of the critique forums nothing egregious comes to mind from recent days.

My perspective is this. Critiques are gifts. if you don't like the gift you are given thank the giver anyway and throw it out when they aren't looking.
 

brianm

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Thank you, Dawno.

Okay, Veinglory... I'll give you two examples.

1) When you notice a word that is not spelled correctly, politely point it out. Dont make a smartass comment about it. More than likely it will be picked up in spellcheck anyway.

2) When you don't think a passage or paragraph works... don't write your own version of it. Suggest what the writer might do to make it work better. Let the writer re-write or not re-write the part that bothers you. A one word change is fine but re-writing the entire thing in your words doesn't help that person.

That's two examples I have seen while reading critiques.
 
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MidnightMuse

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I agree with Veinglory's statement - if someone is bothering to even comment at all on your work, regardless of what they're saying (unless they're being intentionally rude, and in that case report it) then you thank them for their comments, and take or leave what they've offered.
 

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veinglory said:
If a person really is making a smart *** comment, report it to a moderator.

Indeed.

Immediately after my very first posting on AW I got a snarky message about it from a member that was clearly intended to take me down a peg. While the others on the thread were polite--and I even got my 1st rep point from one--this person had issues. (Heck, she had whole subscriptions!)

After checking her other posts I noticed her own were usually pointless negative reactions rather than anything approaching helpful hints. I thought I should report it, but decided belt up and shrug it off, since the source obviously had more problems than I do.

One may do the same thing concerning snarky feedback. Shark tanks can get ugly, but I only listen if and when that person has something useful to impart. You can usually tell who's had a bad day and wants to take it out on others.

Heh--I was in a critique circle where I gave a number of suggestions to a member who nodded and took notes. His stuff needed a lot of work. When my turn came around his highly offended wife avenged his honor by trashing my piece up one end and down the other--the only one in the group to do so. I had a good laugh afterward and added her to my "character collection."

Sooner or later she'll be in one of my books.

She ain't gonna like it. :tongue
 

Siddow

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Some critiques are golden; some are useless. I'm actually drifting away from getting crits at all. I had one girl go through a chapter of mine and insert about forty instances of 'that'. I haven't read the crits here, but just like in most online groups, I can imagine there's some good with the bad. You just have to decide which to pay attention to.
 

brianm

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I think you're missing the point. I didn't bring this up because I am having trouble dealing with those forms of comments. I have no trouble ignoring them and was taught long before AW to always be polite.

I was making an observation in the hopes that those people might learn from it. If you just ignore bad behavior it will never be corrected.
 
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veinglory

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People who behave badly normally don't believe they are behaving badly--so vague condemnations tend to pass them by. Also there is a wide range where offense my be taken without any malacious intention on the poster's part.

Yes, in general critiques should be given with consideration, but I am not sure that a general complaint helps that to occur?
 

Siddow

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brianm said:
I think you're missing the point. I didn't bring this up because I am having trouble dealing with those forms of comments. I have no trouble ignoring them and was taught long before AW to always be polite.

I was making an observation in the hopes that those people might learn from it. If you just ignore bad behavior it will never be corrected.

Then why not address this privately with those whom you find offensive? If you're not willing to do that, then why bring it up at all? Do you think that the writers recieving these crits need your help for their own egos? Send the writer an encouraging note.
 

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Siddow said:
Then why not address this privately with those whom you find offensive? If you're not willing to do that, then why bring it up at all? Do you think that the writers recieving these crits need your help for their own egos? Send the writer an encouraging note.

I tend to agree... the overwhelming number of crits I see here are encouraging and offer productive suggestions. The act of sharing your work implies you are open to criticism of it. I'm not so enamored of my own work that I expect others to feel the same. I don't want anyone sneezing roses for me to protect my feelings, because agents and editors surely won't.
 

veinglory

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I think that a level of courtesy is still required and some people confuse honesty with rude-ness, but the only way to deal with it is case by case IMHO.
 

brianm

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Yes, the vast majority are wonderful and very helpful. I'm sorry I brought this thread up, because apparently you think I am condeming the majority of members here. I am not. If it sounded that way, then I apoligise for it was neither my intent nor my belief. Nor will I go private with people I find offensive. If they get truly offensive, the mods can deal with them. Nor do I think by starting this thread I am helping other writers with their ego problems. Silly notion.

It was an observation of what a few people do and I hoped one of them might read this thread and learn from it. I will keep my observations to myself in the future as I have apparently offended a number of you. That was not my intent.
 

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I don't see a lot of offensive remarks here or in the initial thread, but the vague complaint is in of itself a poorly constructed criticism of what you began in the original issue.

Be succinct and get to the point helps to clarify your themes, stories, or other methods of communicating.

I don't think a "I hope the person is reading this..." helps the intended audience or other writers to become aware of insensitive critiques.

There are guidelines to critique other writers work. Point these out in the future and remind the person to follow the guidelines or refrain from offering criticism.
 

Jamesaritchie

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brianm said:
Thank you, Dawno.

Okay, Veinglory... I'll give you two examples.

1) When you notice a word that is not spelled correctly, politely point it out. Dont make a smartass comment about it. More than likely it will be picked up in spellcheck anyway.

2) When you don't think a passage or paragraph works... don't write your own version of it. Suggest what the writer might do to make it work better. Let the writer re-write or not re-write the part that bothers you. A one word change is fine but re-writing the entire thing in your words doesn't help that person.

That's two examples I have seen while reading critiques.

When you put a story up for critique, you'll get all kinds. The smart move is to use the good ones and ignore the bad. Anything else just starts feuds. No one has to believe anything in a critique. Just ignore the bad ones, move on, and skip posts from that critiquer in the future.

But I'll disagree with one thing. Sometimes rewriting a passage can help a writer a great deal. Sometimes an insight comes that the writer can't get any other way. I've rewritten the passages of others, and I've had other rewrite my passages. It's a good thing, if you don't get insulted by it.

It's common practice in many high end writing courses because it can work extremely well, just as it works well to rewrite passages from the works of famous writers.
 

veinglory

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if the typo is funny I have no problem with a well-meanign aside (and if someone donates their time to help me out well-meaning is assumed). I welcome rewrites--why not? I don't have to use the suggestion and it does nothing to erase the original? There are no hard and fast rules.

I would suggest that people looking for specific types of feedback make the request when they post.
 

SpookyWriter

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Jamesaritchie said:
When you put a story up for critique, you'll get all kinds. The smart move is to use the good ones and ignore the bad. Anything else just starts feuds. No one has to believe anything in a critique. Just ignore the bad ones, move on, and skip posts from that critiquer in the future.
Hi James,

I would like to add to your comments, if you wouldn't mind. I mentioned earlier that there are guidelines for criticism. I hope people use them when reading other writers work. I feel it is important to guage a story on the essential elements and avoid the subjective assessments when possible.

Did the story work for you?
Did you feel like the characters were believable?
Did you feel the protagonist overcame some conflict?
Did the writer have a well-defined plot or was it vague?
Etc.

I do believe that if the person doing the critique followings a simple outline then they should be about to offer valid constructs to what makes the story or what fails.

Subjective criticism is always difficult to accept and understand because the reader might not like the story or isn't enthused enough to read it completely and offer any substantive advice to help the writer.

But the whole idea of offering a critique is to help the writer in areas where they could use improvement and offer praise for areas that were successful.

Just my two kopec...
 
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Jamesaritchie

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SpookyWriter said:
Hi James,

I would like to add to your comments, if you wouldn't mind. I mentioned earlier that there are guidelines for criticism. I hope people use them when reading other writers work. I feel it is important to guage a story on the essential elements and avoid the subjective assessments when possible.

Did the story work for you?
Did you feel like the characters were believable?
Did you feel the protagonist overcame some conflict?
Did the writer have a well-defined plot or was it vague?
Etc.

I do believe that if the person doing the critique followings a simple outline then they should be about to offer valid constructs to what makes the story or what fails.

Subjective criticism is always difficult to accept and understand because the reader might not like the story or isn't enthused enough to read it completely and offer any substantive advice to help the writer.

But the whole idea of offering a critique is to help the writer in areas where they could use improvement and offer praise for areas that were successful.

Just my two kopec...

Oh, I agree with the guidelines and the purpose, but I know many aren't going to follow them. It's best and easiest to just ignore those who do not. When someone gives you an unreasonable critique, when they're nasty instead of helpful, just ignore them. Skip their critiques in the future.

I've also found it's best not to critique a story you hate, or one you don't think you can help. There's really no point in ripping a story to shreds, in being nasty. It helps no one. There's no point in trying to critique a story you hate for whatever reason.
 

SpookyWriter

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Jamesaritchie said:
Oh, I agree with the guidelines and the purpose, but I know many aren't going to follow them. It's best and easiest to just ignore those who do not. When someone gives you an unreasonable critique, when they're nasty instead of helpful, just ignore them. Skip their critiques in the future.

I've also found it's best not to critique a story you hate, or one you don't think you can help. There's really no point in ripping a story to shreds, in being nasty. It helps no one. There's no point in trying to critique a story you hate for whatever reason.

James, I find the stories I hate the most challenging to critique and will take them on simply because it helps me to become better at my own work. If I can point out the technical flaws and areas where the story didn't work then I should be able to apply this towards my own writing.

I also agree that it is important to take each critique with a eye toward the competence of the person offering criticism. Nasty reviews are not helpful and should be reported to a mod. If people can't use the guidelines here or follow common sense then maybe they should not be given the opportunity to give unsatisfactory reviews.

Oh, and I do appreciate all your efforts here.

Bye,

me
 

BuffStuff

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The problem in attempting to critique stories that you hate is that more often than not, you won't be able to see the forest for the trees. You might THINK you're being objective, but honestly, how possible is it to be impartial to characters, subject matter, or plotlines that you hate? If you want, critique such stories but only for yourself in private in order to train yourself to attempt to find the 'good' or the salvagable in what you believe to be dross. It MAY help in teaching you to be more objective in your own reading/critiqueing but that said, it really tends to do a disservice to the writer of the piece in question.

Would you accept to read/listen to a critique from someone who prefaced his comments with "I hated your manuscript but..."? A person will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS critique a piece that they like, slightly (or vastly) differently from a piece that they don't, no matter who they are. It's just not fair to expect a person who hates your piece to be objective in judging it and likewise its not fair to expect yourself to give a balanced review of a manuscript that sets your teeth on edge.

I feel i need to say this as a general trend I'[ve noticed in writing crit groups all over. Many people confuse a "harsh" critique with a good one. I have seen comments all the time from writers who say things like "be hard!" or "tear this up" when they want a critique. Many such writers often confuse a harsh critique with it somehow being 'good'. Always remember this: A good critique is a good critique. PERIOD. Harsh is not good. 'Hard' is not good. Nitpicky is not good. Only Good is good. "Harshness" " has ZERO to do with it. A complete know-nothing jackass can give you a line by line or an overall crit that has used up a gallon of red ink.... and yet still be completely worthless.... A seasoned pro can, in the exact SAME MANUSCRIPT put in a single comma and say "good to go, buddy!" And yet somehow, we all want to believe that the man who bathed our manuscript in red ink, did a more 'thorough critique' when.... he might be a complete know-nothing jackass.

I just felt I needed to say this because I've seen dozens and dozens of so-called "thorough" critiques that are literally useless to the original author, despite how much red ink (or red type) was used...
Red ink isn't hard. Veiled cynicism isn't hard either and there is nothing necessarily 'thorough' or 'professional' about either one. ALWAYS remember that! More amatuer/young writers need to engrain this into their brain, so the next time they do get a 'harsh' critique (Harsh is good in a heck of a lot FEWER cases than it is perceived to be) they won't automatically change things or weigh the 'red inked line-by-line' as having a higher value, or coming from a higher position of authority than the guy who simply writes "here's what i liked......nothing more i can add, great job!"

As an aside, a reason why i've always HATED crit groups that stupidly give a length-minimum to a given critique in order to be "accepted" as your earning points (so you can stay on the list or submit your own work, or whatever) is that:

1. Its stupid because it teaches the critter to be OVERLY critical in hopes that their critique will be deemed of an 'acceptable length' by the mods.

2. It indirectly teaches the author to weigh the longer crits or the more nit-picky line by lines as automatically having more worth than "i loved it, here's why 1. 2. 3."

Take care everyone,
BS
 
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SpookyWriter

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The problem in attempting to critique stories that you hate is that more often than not, you won't be able to see the forest for the trees. You might THINK you're being objective, but honestly, how possible is it to be impartial to characters, subject matter, or plotlines that you hate? If you want, critique such stories but only for yourself in private in order to train yourself to attempt to find the 'good' or the salvagable in what you believe to be dross. It MAY help in teaching you to be more objective in your own reading/critiqueing but that said, it really tends to do a disservice to the writer of the piece in question.

I can't say I review and critique every piece that I hate, because that would be a lie. I am saying that I don't discount the work simply because I might not like it. I do pass on work. Sometimes because I can read the first paragraph and know how much work I'd need to invest in the criticism.

Is that beneficial for me or the other person? Maybe not. Sometimes it helps to read material that is awful and try to explain why it doesn't work. Other times it is easier to just pass on the material and offer some encouragement on their next draft.

Harsh? I've been described as a person who can be harsh, and constructive. My feeling is that too much meddling in the story hurts it more than helps. I don't try to re-write someone's story, but do pick out grammar or mechanical mistakes in such things as use of dialogue tags, etc.

But I do agree that a professional editor, in the business, is the best source for providing critiques. However, how often is this done and when is that last time you remember an editor offering to critique someone's work who is not an established writer?

Cheers,
 

Jamesaritchie

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SpookyWriter said:
James, I find the stories I hate the most challenging to critique and will take them on simply because it helps me to become better at my own work. If I can point out the technical flaws and areas where the story didn't work then I should be able to apply this towards my own writing.

I also agree that it is important to take each critique with a eye toward the competence of the person offering criticism. Nasty reviews are not helpful and should be reported to a mod. If people can't use the guidelines here or follow common sense then maybe they should not be given the opportunity to give unsatisfactory reviews.

Oh, and I do appreciate all your efforts here.

Bye,

me

Well, by hate, I mean a story you truly hate because of subject matter or genre, not one that's horribly written. It's a real risk to let your bias get in the way.

I think you can critique pretty much any story for grammar and punctuation, but when it comes to content I think it's best to stick close to areas you know something about.
 
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