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Thread: Howard Zinn: Put Away the Flags

  1. #1

    Howard Zinn: Put Away the Flags

    enjoy...

    -------------------------------
    On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.

    Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?

    These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.

    National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours -- huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.

    more:http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0703-29.htm

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  2. #2
    Blackheart
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    Wave your flag, haskins. I'll be too busy watching 40,000 german flags waving tomorrow to notice

  3. #3
    banned as an incurable tosspot SpookyWriter's Avatar
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    We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.
    Much of the rant was worthless, but this tidbit caught my attention. Hmmm...

  4. #4
    Agent of Doom Unique's Avatar
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    I've got a ticket for him to anywhere he wants to go -

    as long as he promises to stay there.
    Eat right, exercise, die anyway.

  5. #5
    Stand in the Place Where You Live KTC's Avatar
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    I actually thank Americans for teaching us Canadians nationalism. I swear there were almost NO Canadian flags flying in my city...only at schools and occasionally churches...prior to September 11th. Something about the devastation of those events brought something out in Canadians. As little as a day after the 11th my neighbourhood was literally littered with American flags. I mean they were everywhere. Canadians were showing their support for the tragedy in America. We were glued to our TV sets and buying flags en masse. About a week after the event, Canadian flags started to be waved alongside the American ones. Now...a few years after the tragedy...the Canadian flags still fly. The tragedy somehow made Canadians more patriotic. We were overwhelmed by how the Americans reacted to the attack...we emmulated them and became better patriots because of the attacks. I say KEEP WAVING THOSE FLAGS.

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    2 WIP? A glutton for punishment astonwest's Avatar
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    Nationalism is much like money...
    Lots of money only makes a person more of what they already are, magnified.
    Lots of nationalism, ditto...

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  7. #7
    Gone
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique
    I've got a ticket for him to anywhere he wants to go -

    as long as he promises to stay there.
    I love this country very much. One of the things I love about it--one of the things that makes it worthy of being loved--is that unlike some other countries, you do not need to fawn on the US and everything about it in order to be allowed to live here.*

    It was popular during the Cold War to sport "America--Love It Or Leave It!" bumper stickers. IMO, people who did so missed a rather critical point about America.


    *In theory, anyway.
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  8. #8
    banned as an incurable tosspot davids's Avatar
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    Nationalism-Patriot-Patriotic-Patriotism-all words when used to manipulate others into false sacrifice become evil-they are not evil words-only the manipulators are.

  9. #9
    One of the most important people in the world kdnxdr's Avatar
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    I'm not a very educated, smart person. However, the little bit of information that I've come across in various places has me pondering...

    is sovereignty something worth keeping as a nation?

    Just because a nation relinquishes it's' national jurisprudence, does the world become a better place?

    Is there just one country in the global community vying for the overarching influence in the world? Given the money/power/authority would any other nation like to impose it's philosophy/legal system upon the world?

    How ideallic would a truely global, one-world system be?

    Should the US surrender it's legal precedence to global-community law as dictated by the United Nations?

    If the United States laid down all their emblems of nationalism, would any other governmental system lay down theirs'?

    government's do not worship icons, people do. people crave icons. communication is all about icons and the manipulation of icons.

    oh yeah, and, when nations take up commercial residence within other nations, should they submit to the laws of the host nation? Like, if there are enforcable ecological laws, should foreign entities be expected to come under the requirements of those laws?

    Should the United Nations law be able to overide economic/legal activity with a given country and supercede their laws into that country?
    Last edited by kdnxdr; 07-08-2006 at 09:03 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Show of hands, people: Who here is under the impression that Howard Zinn is advocating that the US give up its national sovereignity?

    ...And who here is instead under the impression that Howard Zinn is advising his fellow Americans to ease up a bit on the nationalistic jingoistic, wrap-yourself-in-the-flag attitude?

    OK, and who looked at those two options and said, "What's the difference?"
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  11. #11
    defender of the blahs! LightShadow's Avatar
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    Fly the flag -- be proud -- be outraged about the actions of the enemy -- we must take action as we have -- our future generations deserve that we leave them the healthiest, safest, freest and most prosperous America that we can.

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  12. #12
    Grumpy oswann's Avatar
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    Born in Australia, educated in France after stints in Tokyo and London, married to a Portuguese woman, have two French children, work with companies from all over Europe - what song do I need to sing or flag do I need to fly?

    People have mistaken me for being French or pro France. I am more critical of France than some of the uninformed things sometimes spouted on these boards, however I am wary of blind love or blind hatred. When this is mixed with nationalism or worse religion, the cocktail becomes more difficult to digest. I don't want anyone to stop waving flags or to stop having a sense of place but to be tolerant above all.



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  13. #13
    back door man Godfather's Avatar
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    Hmmm...

    I'm proud to be Irish, does that make me bad?
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  14. #14
    Touch and go robeiae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleJLeBoeuf
    Show of hands, people: Who here is under the impression that Howard Zinn is advocating that the US give up its national sovereignity?

    ...And who here is instead under the impression that Howard Zinn is advising his fellow Americans to ease up a bit on the nationalistic jingoistic, wrap-yourself-in-the-flag attitude?

    OK, and who looked at those two options and said, "What's the difference?"
    And who here thinks Zinn is a pompous @ss? Who thinks he's willing to bend history to serve his own ideological ends? Who thinks he represents the worst side of post-modernist thinking? That he is so certain all truths are subjective except his?

    Did you guys read the whole bit? From the article:

    One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki...

    We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.
    Really, I would love to know how the totality of U.S. policies over the approriate period of time can be presented as fundamental identical/equal to those of Germany, of the Soviet Union, of Imperial Japan.

    Rob
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    Dances With Hamsters SC Harrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robeiae
    And who here thinks Zinn is a pompous @ss? Who thinks he's willing to bend history to serve his own ideological ends? Who thinks he represents the worst side of post-modernist thinking? That he is so certain all truths are subjective except his?

    Did you guys read the whole bit? From the article:


    Really, I would love to know how the totality of U.S. policies over the approriate period of time can be presented as fundamental identical/equal to those of Germany, of the Soviet Union, of Imperial Japan.

    Rob
    To choose the Pear Harbor body count while leaving out the atrocities comitted in China proves he's no historian: http://www.gotrain.com/dan/nanking1.htm
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    On December 13, 1937, the Imperial Japanese Army stormed the Chinese city of Nanking. During the following six weeks, they murdered and tortured countless civilians whose only crime was being Chinese. Over 300,000 people were killed and over 20,000 women were brutally raped. However, over the decades, the Japanese began to deny that this massacre ever occurred. Few Americans are aware of the Nanking atrocities, so numerous efforts are now being made to teach the world what happened in China during the massacre.
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