Originally split from the PMA thread.
06-09-2006, 12:54 AM
Dave Sloane
One of the Locals
"You don't know what you're missing"
I had forgotten all about my query to PMA last December, when, lo and behold, I received a nice reject telling me how they weren't interested in reviewing my novel.
I couldn't resist sending back this e-mail: "Thank you for your reply. You don't know what you're missing."
Believe it or not, I am not bitter, angry, etc., etc., etc.---but I am blase.
Why I am posting this? To suggest that some of you may wish to consider a little back talk to these great divines of the publishing realm. It feels good. How can an agent know if a work is any good unless they give it a peek? And why bother getting back to me just to tell me you don't want to look at it after a six-month wait?
Whatever.
06-09-2006, 05:37 AM
dragonjax
Where's the chocolate?
Quote:
Ouch.Originally Posted by Dave Sloane
I couldn't resist sending back this e-mail: "Thank you for your reply. You don't know what you're missing."
Believe it or not, I am not bitter, angry, etc., etc., etc.---but I am blase.
Why I am posting this? To suggest that some of you may wish to consider a little back talk to these great divines of the publishing realm. It feels good. How can an agent know if a work is any good unless they
give it a peek? And why bother getting back to me just to tell me you don't want to look at it after a six-month wait? Whatever.
Dave, I know this is a frustrating business -- believe me, been there, done that. My first novel scored me a total of more than triple-digit agent rejections.
But "talking back" to the agents does nothing but make you look unprofessional.
Believe it or not, an agent's first responsibility is to current clients, not to potential clients...and definitely not to authors whom they know they won't be representing. Yes, the turnaround time on queries can make authors want to hit their heads. A lot. I still have queries for representation on my third book that were never answered -- and that book has already sold in a three-book deal. I figure I'll get those rejections at one point...maybe...
Anyway, that's my two cents.
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HELL'S BELLES by Jackie Kessler
06-09-2006, 07:59 AM
Aconite
Full sun to light shade
Mod Squad Member
*wince* Oh, Dave. I'm sure that seemed like a good idea at the time, but you just branded yourself as a clueless amateur instead of a professional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Sloane
Why I am posting this? To suggest that some of you may wish to consider a little back talk to these great divines of the publishing realm. It feels good. How can an agent know if a work is any good unless they give it a peek? And why bother getting back to me just to tell me you don't want to look at it after a six-month wait?
Whatever.
I don't use good business manners because I'm intimidated by agents or publishers. I use them because I'm an adult and because I know publishing is a business. Your response was emotion-based--"My work is so good! How dare you say my work, and by extension, I, and no good?! What would you know, anyway?"
Well, for starters, they now know you're not experienced or professional. They know you expect unrealistic things from the publishing world. They know you'd be difficult to work with, and sensitive to perceived slights that are actually business as usual. That doesn't make you an appealing prospective client.
How can they know they don't want to represent your work without seeing the manuscript? As one editor put it, "You don't have to drink the whole carton to know if the milk is bad." Maybe your query letter told them all they needed to know: the writing style doesn't suit; the subject matter or genre isn't one they deal with; or you made mistakes or comments in the query that let them know they were dealing with an inexperienced, touchy writer. Or maybe they're just not taking on new clients right now. Whatever the reason, you've burned your bridges with them now. That wasn't smart. I don't recommend doing that with other agents.
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06-09-2006, 10:22 AM
Nomad
Charter Dawnolite
Absolute Sage
David,
I understand how frustrating it gets to be rejected after a long wait when the agent or publisher in question hasn't read the work, but "talking back" doesn't do you or anyone else any good. Agents move; editors at publishing houses move, and believe me, we remember when someone has been rude to us. We're not rejecting you personally; we're rejecting your proposal because it isn't what we rep, or publish, or we know that particular topic isn't selling, or your query was poorly written and we can only imagine what the work itself is like, or you've queried the wrong agency or business for the wrong genre, or any number of other reasons. It's not personal--I repeat--it's not personal. To suggest that agents and editors view themselves as "great divines" of the publishing world is unfair. We're trying to run businesses, buy, sell, and publish good books, and make money.
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www.nomadpress.net
06-09-2006, 11:14 AM
rugcat
One of the Locals
I recently received the same type of form rejection response, from a forgotten query sent last November. It was not from the agent I queried, but from an intern, which makes me believe they're just clearing out their backlog.
I think the frustration comes not from being rejected so much as the suspicion that one's query is not even seen or considered.
Personally, I was more amused than annoyed at the seven month lag reply time on a simple query. As others have commented, sending a rude response is counterproductive at best, unprofessional at worst. But I showed them! I always send a note of thanks to those who consider a partial, for example.
But this time, I DIDN'T EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR SEVEN MONTH OLD EMAIL RESPONSE!!
06-09-2006, 11:19 AM
Toni1953
Desperately Seeking Agent
I always send them a thank you note for at least reading the work, too. You never know when you might want to send them something else and polite is always good.
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Toni
06-09-2006, 12:11 PM
Nomad
Charter Dawnolite
Absolute Sage
I would venture to say that even if an intern is reading the query, it is being read before it's sent back. I know in our company, we may not write anything but a generic "thanks but no thanks" letter, but we never just toss something out without reading the query first.
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www.nomadpress.net
06-09-2006, 12:28 PM
DeadlyAccurate
She who shoots straight
Er, no. I'd rather be published at some time in the future instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Sloane
Why I am posting this? To suggest that some of you may wish to consider a little back talk to these great divines of the publishing realm. It feels good. How can an agent know if a work is any good unless they give it a peek? And why bother getting back to me just to tell me you don't want to look at it after a six-month wait? Whatever.
06-09-2006, 02:11 PM
MidnightMuse
Send Lawyers, Guns & Money
Yowza! Only thing talkin' back ever got me was the back of my father's hand!
When I get my rejections - even form replies that give me the 'impression' it wasn't even looked at - I take one evening to sit on the couch and drown my sorrows in chocolate soy milk, while telling one of the cats how that agent will rue the day someday . . . but my cat doesn't spread my secrets.
Okay, sure, his NAME is Secret, and the other one is Rumor, but neither of us go replying back to those agents. Someday I'd LIKE to be published, and maybe even one of the rejectors-past will be the next acceptance.
Burning bridges makes it really hard to get to the other side when the bears are chasing you.
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Hope Springs Eternal, But Fate Will Always Piddle On Your Shoe.
06-09-2006, 04:27 PM
Kasey Mackenzie
Blonde & Bookxum
You know that scene in Pretty Woman where Julia Roberts returns to the high-end clothing boutique where the snooty clerks refuse to wait on her because they think she doesn't have enough money for their store? She hoists the full shopping bags from another high-end store where she spent thousands and thousands of dollars and reminds the clerks how they wouldn't serve her when she was in earlier. "Big mistake. Big. Huge. I have to go shopping now." Very funny scene and I'm sure emotionally satisfying for her character.
Publishing does not work like this!
Writers who insist on acting in similar manners to the ones described above are actually the ones making big, huge mistakes. Repeat after me...Publishing is a _business._ Rejections are not _personal._ Publishing is a _business._ Rejections are not _personal._ Make this your mantra, because if you can't develop a thick skin at this stage of the game, you're really going to have troubles later on if/when you _do_ get an agent and/or publishing deal.
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06-10-2006, 03:00 AM
Dave Sloane
One of the Locals
Oy Vey!!
Way harsh folks. Many people here take themselves and the whole deal way too seriously. Have some fun with it and stop being so uptight. Oh, I'll admit that my flippant attitude will not help me get an agent at PMA. So what? An intern got back to me and I had the temerity to reply with a little zinger. And, I hate to be brutally honest, but no matter how great you are the chances of getting a mainstream publisher are slim and none, but most of you wouldn't dream of going P.O.D. like I did. At least I have a book that's available all over the world. Y'all better seriously consider goin' P.O.D.
06-10-2006, 06:02 AM
dragonjax
Where's the chocolate?
Buzz buzz, Dave. If your writing is good and marketable, your chances of geting a mainstream publisher are excellent. And there's a world of difference between being uptight and being professional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Sloane
Way harsh folks. Many people here take themselves and the whole deal way too seriously. Have some fun with it and stop being so uptight. Oh, I'll admit that my flippant attitude will not help me get an agent at PMA. So what? An intern got back to me and I had the temerity to reply with a little zinger. And, I hate to be brutally honest, but no matter how great you are the chances of getting a mainstream publisher are slim and none, but most of you wouldn't dream of going P.O.D. like I did. At least I have a book that's available all over the world. Y'all better seriously consider goin' P.O.D.
This is an agent thread, not a P.O.D. thread; if you want to discuss the merits of going P.O.D., you'll probably get a lot more traffic on the appropriate thread.
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HELL'S BELLES by Jackie Kessler
06-10-2006, 06:08 AM
Aconite
Full sun to light shade
Mod Squad Member
Dave, your attitude is clueless and you are seriously ignorant about publishing. A smidgen of research would have kept you from looking--and acting--like an fool. Quite a few of the people you're saying won't be published by mainstream publishers already are, silly. Want to join the ranks? Then listen to what they have to say, and get over yourself.
You stuck your foot in your mouth. The mature thing to do would be to face up to the fact that you need to educate yourself and to do it, not to start taking potshots and defending very foolish actions.
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06-10-2006, 10:07 AM
James D. Macdonald
Dawnolite Sparklecow
Absolute Sage
Dave, you really need to go read Slushkiller. Read the whole thing, and all the comments.
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06-10-2006, 12:28 PM
victoriastrauss
Cud-chewing moo-derator
Absolute Sage
If you really believe this, why are you querying agents? Sounds like retroactive rationalization to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Sloane
And, I hate to be brutally honest, but no matter how great you are the chances of getting a mainstream publisher are slim and none, but most of you wouldn't dream of going P.O.D. like I did. At least I have a book that's available all over the world. Y'all better seriously consider goin' P.O.D.
- Victoria
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Two of Eight
06-10-2006, 04:53 PM
Sharon Mock
Freed from Oblivion
Meh. The way I figure it, if my book can't find a legitimate publisher, I'm better off not getting it published. I just need to sit down and write a better book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Sloane
And, I hate to be brutally honest, but no matter how great you are the chances of getting a mainstream publisher are slim and none, but most of you wouldn't dream of going P.O.D. like I did. At least I have a book that's available all over the world. Y'all better seriously consider goin' P.O.D.
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06-10-2006, 08:16 PM
Branwyn
At a loss for words...
I disagree with the half page rejection being an effort to 'save the rain forest.'(my words, but that was the jist, basically the psychological impact was less damaging on smaller paper )Quote:
Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald
Dave, you really need to go read Slushkiller. Read the whole thing, and all the comments.
If we as writers conduct ourselves in a business like manner, I think it follows that the other end of the transaction be as business like and at the very least send the rejection on a business size piece of paper.
I actually recieved a rejection letter on the backside of a letter to a publisher for someone else's work.
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06-11-2006, 06:46 AM
Aconite
Full sun to light shade
Mod Squad Member
Branwyn, I think the main point is that it's not personal, and it doesn't mean anything more than the rejection came on a half sheet. Writers often get caught up in "rejectomancy," trying to read more into rejections than was actually there.
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06-11-2006, 02:06 PM
Liam Jackson
I banned my other me
Mod Squad Member
Mr. Sloan, why would I consider POD when Kelly sold the first novel I subbed to her, and Peter sold the next two?
Note: Yes, Kelly is on a leave of absence. No, she isn't new to PMA. She began working with me on my first novel in mid-2004.
Please don't misunderstand my reason for posting. I do, indeed, consider myself fortunate. I do not, however, believe my good fortune is an isolated event. This whole "the publishing sky is falling" attitude does get old. New authors get publishing deals everyday. Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't require blood sacrifices or bribing the publishing border guards.
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06-11-2006, 11:05 PM
Dave Sloane
One of the Locals
Consider my points....
To get such hostility, arrogance and pomposity over my innocuous postings re PMA is pathetic. And Aconite, let us all know when you hit the NYT best-seller list--you know-it-all. The fact remains that due to the vagaries of the system, no matter how good your novel is, the chances of getting picked up by a worthwhile mainstream publisher is extremely remote. Anyone who doubts this is naive or uninformed. Just check out the Writer's Guide and go through the agents listings. On average the rejection rate is 90 to 99.5 percent. Moreover, the agents seems to gloat over this. This is why P.O.D. exists. P.O.D. is a wonderful venue for those who can't waste countless hours in a (most likely) futile quest to find a publisher.
No one has to agree with me, but get over yourselves and admit that I have made a very good point--i.e., that P.O.D. exists because it is extremely difficult to get published and that it can provide an excellent alternative for writers who want to take it to the people. By the way, Amy Fisher is published via I-Universe and Senator Lugar is published via Author House Peace to you, brothers and sisters !!
06-11-2006, 11:30 PM
Alan Yee
Keeper of Flying Hellhounds
Rejection rates are meaningless. Not every story or book has the same "chances" of being accepted and published. If your book is really good, you have an excellent chance of being published. If your book is good but might be even better after it's edited, you have a larger-than-0 chance of being published. If your book isn't very good, you have 0 chances of being published.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Sloane
On average the rejection rate is 90 to 99.5 percent. Moreover, the agents seems to gloat over this. This is why P.O.D. exists.
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06-11-2006, 11:32 PM
Aconite
Full sun to light shade
Mod Squad Member
Dave, you're full of crap.
About 20 to 25% of the books in bookstores at any time are by first-time authors. Publishers Weekly lists deals by new authors in every fricking issue. Publishers and agents are picking up new authors all the time; they have to. Several of them are here, replying to you, trying to straighten out your distorted view of publishing. You don't like what you're hearing, so you insult those people and ignore what they have to say. Not smart.
Why is the rejection rate so high? Because the vast, vast majority of manuscripts in the slush pile are unpublishable dreck. If you keep getting rejected, the hard and painful truth is that it's not because publishing won't give authors a break, it's because your manuscript isn't good enough to be published. Period.
Tell me, Dave, why does an author have to be a NYT bestseller to know more than you, or be more successful? Just asking.
If you are truly so foolish as to be both so arrogant and so unconfident of your skills at the same time, by all means, continue along the path you've chosen and sink into obscurity. You can't say you weren't warned. On the other hand, you could pull your head out of the sand, swallow your pride, and think about whether or not you might be wrong, if authors who are already where you hope to be one day are telling you that you're wrong. Your choice.
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06-12-2006, 01:00 AM
rugcat
One of the Locals
Aconite, I think you're being a bit harsh.
Sure, there's a lot of unpublishable dreck out there making the rounds, but not all of it is bad. I've said this before; if you write a truly great book, it will find a home, but there are also plenty of mss floating around which are quite good, equally as good as many published novels, but which will never see the light of day. With the competition these days, it's not enough for a book to be merely well written or interesting - it has to be special.
Or, you can be lucky. Your work, for whatever reasons, may appeal to a particular agent or publisher over a slew of others of the same quality, for no other reason except personal taste. There is music I like, and other music I don't particularly care for. It doesn't necessarily mean the music I don't care for is bad. (There is bad music, but that's another story.)
It can be very discouraging when a writer feels his/her work is at least as good as what appears on the bookstore shelves, but no one will give it a chance. I personally don't see the point of railing against the book industry, and certainly don't buy into that ridiculous "conspiracy against new writers" theory that pops up occasionally, but I do understand the frustrations, and can see why someone might even consider POD.
Not all rejected writers have written bad books, nor is it a given that if you write a good book, someone will publish it.
I've published two books in the past, with a mainstram publisher, and am now having considerably less luck with my third, which I think is a better book. Then again, I could be wrong. I may have to write a different book.
06-12-2006, 01:27 AM
Dave Sloane
One of the Locals
My, my...
Aconite,
What's wrong with you? You get personal, come off like a know-it-all, I call you on it, and you go postal. I'm not about to post my resume, but I've been published, for real. I'd bet I'm also a better writer than you'll ever be. Please take a hike. I'm not replying to any more of your harangues. Feel free to rant on against me, I couldn't care less. If you do, then you'll look even more pathetic. Good luck.
06-12-2006, 02:24 AM
James D. Macdonald
Dawnolite Sparklecow
Absolute Sage
Amy Fisher got a 30,000 copy offset advance printing and wasn't required to pay iUniverse's up-front fee. Please don't hold her up as typical.
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