The Past is a Foreign Country; they do things differently there

benbenberi

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A lot of us will have encountered discussions of the revolution in domestic architecture of the 17-18c that gave us (1) the corridor and (2) rooms specialized for particular functions in a house. We can imagine the older order in stately homes and castles because we've seen those great halls and the long stretches of rooms opening onto rooms. And we can imagine the rustic cottages with everyone packed into one room for everything, with maybe the livestock not far off.

But here's an article I ran across (in French, but with some interesting visuals) that focusses on housing in the town, specifically Paris in the 16-17c. And boy, is it different from the way we live now. The building plots, of course, were narrow and deep, and many included a back-building for storage, stabling, or extra living space, sometimes freestanding & sometimes linked to the main house, with a courtyard. Inside the house, rooms let onto rooms, no corridors, and as little space given to the staircase (often circular) as possible. The rooms were differentiated by size, not by any designated purpose. The wealthiest people occupied an entire house, but then as now most urban dwellers were renters under a common roof. (There are quite a few houses of this era still standing in Paris, but most of them have had their interior arrangements updated significantly in the last couple of centuries. Running water, for instance, and stairwells.)

The most striking difference from today -- when you rented lodging in 16-17c Paris, you weren't renting an apartment in our modern sense, a room or a suite of rooms that were private to you behind a door. You rented a certain number of rooms, but they were probably not contiguous -- you might have a room on the second floor, another on the fifth, a third in the back building. Same for your neighbors in the house. When you were in funds, you might add another room, or consolidate into fewer if money was tight. And because there were no corridors in these houses, this meant that you would have to go through your neighbors' rooms to get from one of yours to another, and vice versa.

It's a way of living that's hard for us moderns to imagine, much less write. Still, the possibilities for drama (not to mention farce) are endless!

In your research, have you come across points like this, where fundamental aspects of living are so alien to our modern assumptions of what's normal? Does it show up in your writing?
 

Marissa D

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That's fascinating--that one might rent rooms in different parts of the house rather than contiguous ones, and yes, points to a whole different concept of "normal". And the question becomes to what degree such fundamental differences can "work" in modern fiction. Fantasy and science fiction have the excuse of being...well, fantasy--readers have the expectation that things will be very different in cultures on Betelgeuse IV or in southern Atlantis. But casual readers of historical fiction might already have a picture of cultures of our past as being just like ours but with more clothes and less plumbing, and trying to get them to wrap their heads around the astonishing differences...it's hard to know how "real" to get.

Very cool--thank you for posting.
 

stephenf

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Hi
I lived in London in the 1960/70 and rented places you have described . The last one was in West Hampstead . I rented thee rooms, two were on the top floor and the third was on the next floor down . Each room had a sink, and gas and electric meter . When you went from one room to another , you would need to lock and unlock the doors . The only room I did not rent was the bath room and toilet . The house had a communal one , used by everybody in the house. I have stayed in places like that in Spain and Italy . Often it would belong to a one time wealthy family . The family would still occupy part of the house or apartment and rent bits out .
 

CWatts

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The most striking difference from today -- when you rented lodging in 16-17c Paris, you weren't renting an apartment in our modern sense, a room or a suite of rooms that were private to you behind a door. You rented a certain number of rooms, but they were probably not contiguous -- you might have a room on the second floor, another on the fifth, a third in the back building. Same for your neighbors in the house. When you were in funds, you might add another room, or consolidate into fewer if money was tight. And because there were no corridors in these houses, this meant that you would have to go through your neighbors' rooms to get from one of yours to another, and vice versa.

This is so bizarre and kind of cool. It lends itself to all kinds of odd situations. (Plus I can easily imagine why diseases spread so quickly...!) You say there are some buildings like this still in Paris but they have been renovated - any idea how long this arrangement persisted? I would imagine it was almost gone by the mid/late 19th century because of Haussman.

I might have posted this link earlier, but 19th/early 20th century New York City had freight trains rushing through the middle of streets (nicknamed "Death Avenue" for all the people killed): http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/25/r...s-that-turned-a-street-into-death-avenue.html
 
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Tazlima

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You see a lot of those old-style houses here in New Orleans. (Where rooms connect directly to other rooms without any hallways). They call them shotgun houses here, because if you shot a gun in the front door, the pellets would go through the whole place and out the back door without ever hitting a wall.

It's a lousy design for privacy (at one point I had a room that was between another bedroom and the kitchen and bathroom. My roommate regularly brought home guys to spend the night, and it was super creepy to wake up at three AM and see some strange dude in his boxers, complete with tentpole, walking through my bedroom to reach the bathroom.

The design was used to facilitate airflow in the pre-AC days. Open the front and back, and you'd get a good breeze through the whole house.
 
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AW Admin

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I dearly love old shotgun houses, especially the duplexes.
 

angeliz2k

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In the house I grew up in, my bedroom opened onto my brothers' room, and to get to the bathroom you had to go through their bedroom. It's hard to describe, but imagine a tiny landing at the top of the steps. The stairs are on the north side, my door makes up the west side of the landing, and the boys' doorway (with no door) comprises the south side. The fourth side of the little square was a wall. And so I'd step out onto this tiny landing and either go down the (twisty) steps to my left or be in my brothers' room on the right. That part of the house is c the 1880s.

I think the fact that multiple people--often whole families--slept in the same bed is very foreign to modern people.
 

Roxxsmom

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I had a boyfriend for a while who rented an old farmhouse in college, and while it had a front entryway, the only bathroom was smack dab in between two bedrooms. There was no way to use the bathroom (which still had a claw-foot tub) without walking through one of them. Originally, the house had only had two bedrooms. It would have been awkward enough, even so (as guests would have to walk through one of the bedrooms). But since then, bedrooms had been added onto the basement (not something that exists in newer CA homes) and as an addition to the back of the house. So two of the roommates (and any overnight guests they had) needed to walk through their sleeping roomate's rooms at night or in the early morning if they wanted to use the bathroom. Being guys, they tended to pee in the backyard during those hours, but female guests had little choice but to be rude.

However, the Victorian house I rented in Northern NY was so old the original house had no bathrooms. They'd been added since--the upstairs one was in an old cupboard under the gables space, while the downstairs one was in an old pantry or scullery off the kitchen. The oddest thing about that house was the lack of countertops and built-in cupboards in the kitchen. Except for right around the sink, I had to rely on tables for counter space, and cupboard space was provided by open shelves and a sort of (what are those things called) piece of furniture that housed dishes and cups.

I love seeing old houses, though, and trying to imagine how people lived and met their basic needs. I remember reading that some of the oldest farmhouses in Europe, before the days of fireplaces with chimneys, had the stable or barn as a room off the main house. It must have smelled wonderful, but olfactory epithelium will quickly saturate when it comes to habitual smells.

Still, I have to admit that reading about historical settings that are too realistic in terms of hygenic practices (especially in hot romances) and so on will tend to damage my immersion and ability to relate to the characters. I know that the idea that no one ever bathed, washed their clothes or cleaned their teeth before modern times is rather overstated, but it's also certainly true that the vast majority of people in the old days (though there are exceptions here and there) lacked running, heated water in their homes or sanitary facilities that would pass modern muster.

I think the fact that multiple people--often whole families--slept in the same bed is very foreign to modern people.

I heard recently of a company that makes giant beds that can sleep the whole family. I guess it's catering to the co-sleeping movement. I can't imagine it's very good for deep, uninterrupted shut eye, though. I have enough trouble with a snoring husband. Snoring kids and grandma as well? No thanks.

One thing I remember reading is that people slept more hours each night in the old days (and actually had a lot more down time at some times of year than modern people do). Maybe that was necessary if the quality of sleep was impacted by the whole extended family sharing one room, or even one bed.
 
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Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Rox, I think you're talking about a china cabinet (enclosed with glass doors) or a Dutch dresser (shelves without doors).

I was raised in a 1908 house with weird (by our standards) closets. The closets (like modern ones) stretched across one wall, but you could only access them through a single small door. Furthermore, my bedroom had once been the bookcase end of a living hall (stretched across the whole front of the house, without any foyer). I had no closet. There was a door between my bedroom and my brothers' bedroom. I needed to use it to get to the closet in my brothers' room. We each had two feet of hanging space. (My brothers hung their clothes one over the other.)

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Roxxsmom

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Along these lines, did people of the past walk differently than we do? Yes. Because of their footwear.

This is actually pretty interesting. I'm filing it away, because it could be interesting to show in my A and P classes if I can think of a place to fit it in. Though I couldn't stop thinking of John Cleese while watching it.

Note that the toe to heel walking is something most of us revert to when the ground is uneven or slippery. The narrator said that toe walking builds your calves up, so I shouldn't take it up on a permanent basis. I already have massive, muscular calves.
 
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snafu1056

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Me too! The mustve looked incredibly silly. I'm grateful to be a heel-walker
 

Roxxsmom

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Me too! The mustve looked incredibly silly. I'm grateful to be a heel-walker

They probably thought heel walking looked silly once shoes with frames and heels became the norm. Though I'm guessing they were popular with the wealthy first, which probably helped to make heel walking fashionable for everyone.

Anyone else old enough to remember those "earth shoes" that were big in the 70s? Some of my parent's friends wore them for a while. If I remember right, the heel was lower than the toe box. I think they were supposed to promote toe stepping. They went out of fashion sometime around the same time as mood rings and toe socks, however.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Rox, I think you're talking about a china cabinet (enclosed with glass doors) or a Dutch dresser (shelves without doors).

I was raised in a 1908 house with weird (by our standards) closets. The closets (like modern ones) stretched across one wall, but you could only access them through a single small door. Furthermore, my bedroom had once been the bookcase end of a living hall (stretched across the whole front of the house, without any foyer). I had no closet. There was a door between my bedroom and my brothers' bedroom. I needed to use it to get to the closet in my brothers' room. We each had two feet of hanging space. (My brothers hung their clothes one over the other.)

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal



Thanks, yes. China cabinet/cupboard was the word I was drawing a blank on for some reason.

That was another thing about this older house (built in the 1860s). The original rooms lacked closets, except for tight little cupboards under the stairs or gables of the roof upstairs (where the space under the edges of the steeply pitched roof became too low to stand comfortably anyway--one of these was made into a cramped little bathroom with a doll-sized shower and a toilet jammed so close to the wall you had to sit kind of side saddle). However, more recently the bedrooms and parlor room had been modified to be a bit smaller to have a closet built against one wall.
 
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RoseDG

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They have to walk through each other's rooms a bit in I CAPTURE THE CASTLE due to lack of corridors.
 

angeliz2k

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Oh, yeah, the house I grew up in didn't have plumbing until the 30's or something. The path to the outhouse is actually still visible. The two full baths in the house used to be bedrooms, so they're spacious, lol. My parents also added a half-bath off of the old kitchen.

We had a hoosier growing up, too, a big piece of furniture that's a self-contained prep space. Below, a cabinet, with a tabletop on top and more enclosed cabinets above that. You could have all your ingredients and implements there in the cabinets and prep right there on the tabletop. It had a lot in common with a big pie safe with "counter space".
 

CWatts

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This is actually pretty interesting. I'm filing it away, because it could be interesting to show in my A and P classes if I can think of a place to fit it in. Though I couldn't stop thinking of John Cleese while watching it.

So did I. Also - please tell me I'm not the only one cracking up at the ball-walker's "happy to see you" dagger hilt? No way that design is an accident. But then we know from Chaucer that medieval folk were raunchy.
 
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snafu1056

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It makes me picture a world where everyone walked around like a ballet dancer.
 

benbenberi

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It makes me picture a world where everyone walked around like a ballet dancer.
Not far off!

Styles of walking were seen as a class differentiator in the 17c -- the "noble gait" was a real thing in France. It was probably related in that period more to training than to footgear -- young nobles received intense instruction in formal dance and deportment, and they were expected to move and hold themselves accordingly.

There were also, apparently, gaits specific to certain families that were distinctive enough to identify them.
 

snafu1056

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Someone should make a movie about a person who goes back in time and ends up getting burned at the stake for walking like Satan
 

RoseDG

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Not far off!

Styles of walking were seen as a class differentiator in the 17c -- the "noble gait" was a real thing in France. It was probably related in that period more to training than to footgear -- young nobles received intense instruction in formal dance and deportment, and they were expected to move and hold themselves accordingly.

There were also, apparently, gaits specific to certain families that were distinctive enough to identify them.

And, of course, ballet began in the court of France. It evolved later in Italy and, still later, Russia. I don't like to think about what's happened to it in the US, so I won't say a word. (Bambi principle.)
 

snafu1056

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Sometimes walking even becomes an artform, like the African-American cakewalk craze of the 19th century. Cakewalking was pretty much literally that--walking. But it was stylized to the point of being a performance. I dont think we've seen anything like that since. Though I guess Michael Jackson would've won lots of cakes with the Moonwalk.

- - - Updated - - -

If you stole a noble's swagger, could he demand satisfaction in a dance-off to the death?

Nah. They'd probably just skip ahead to the death part.
 
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Flicka

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I think the general lack of privacy in the past is something very alien to us. People sharing beds (even strangers at inns), servants sleeping in truckle beds by their masters' sides, everybody living on top of each other in one room along with livestock...

I sometimes think of my paternal ancestors - Sami in North Scandinavia, who lived in tents of reindeer hide, everyone crammed tightly for warmth, dark 24/7 in the mid-winter, snow up over their ears, shoes made of birch bark - and realize I just can't imagine what that would be like, let alone how they survived and bred. So much is alien about that it just boggles the mind.