Is a query letter of a sequel worth it if the first book is self-published?

ForeverYoursCaffiene said:

I've been working on a sequel for upper MG, and I find it a worthy successor of my self-published title. The writing is one of my best, and I'm quite proud of it at the moment. I'm about 2/3rds done.

As I did with my first book, I sent it to several agents and waited 6 months. After no good news, I went ahead and self-published it. I focused on local marketing. It is at several school and public libraries, and I give speeches, etc. The schools love it and ask for a sequel. I felt motivated to do so.

Click to expand...

Can I check that I've got this right: you've written about two thirds of the book, but have already sent it to several agents? And then you self published it?

I don't understand. How can you have published it if it's not finished?

Note, also, that you shouldn't submit fiction until it's finished.

After my sequel is done, I plan to send it to several agents again. I tried to make the book stand alone. Any backstory is briefly referenced to.

My concern:
Since the agent does not own the rights to the first book, and my success stats are more based on library check-outs than sales, is the agent likely to not accept the new book? I'm trying to think realistically here before finishing up the book. If that's the case, I'm sure I can use several scenes for a different book. I thought I'd get some opinions on the matter. Thank you.

Click to expand...

Very few agents or editors will be able to work with a sequel to a book which has been published by someone else. If it doesn't stand alone, you have little chance of finding an agent or a trade deal for this book.

Agents don't own rights to books. They represent authors.

Agents make their decisions to offer representation based on the book in front of them. If they think they can sell it, and sell it well, they offer to represent the author. They aren't that bothered about an author's publication history (although if the author is a best-seller, that does help!).

ForeverYoursCaffiene said:

Hope this helps:
1) My first book of the series: I self-published it a year ago after being rejected for 6 months by agents.

2) My second book of the series: I'm writing this one right now. I have not sent it to agents. I want to send it to agents after it is edited.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the clarification.

Remember you don't need to pay for your work to be edited prior to submission. I know several writers who have done so and felt it worthwhile but as a good publisher will edit your book for you once it's signed, it seems a waste of money to me.

So we're on the same page, what do we mean by stand-alone for increasing agents' interest in representation?

Here's my check-list of what I believe it means (If one is checked, that means my book currently fits what I believe is stand-alone):
[x] Have a non-ordered title. For example, Harry Potter had Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets instead of Harry Potter II. My second book has the same format: Title and the Subtitle

Click to expand...

The title has nothing to do with it. Call it whatever you want: it's likely that this will be changed by the publisher anyway.

[x] The second book doesn't reference heavily to the first book. I give dialogue and brief references here and there with some backstory. The book reflects on his memories of being a hero. Would I need to scratch this out then? Or are past memories acceptable from the previous book without losing the reader? I'm concerned on this one, but reason we all reflect on the past.

Click to expand...

If the second book refers to the first in any way, it is not a standalone. If you need to provide the relevant backstory from book one in book two, book two is not a standalone.

[x] The second book only has three characters from the previous book, and the rest are brand new. One character is an old enemy who shows up in a few chapters.

Click to expand...

If you have to explain that the character is an old enemy then you're referring to the first book, I'd have thought.

You can have characters appearing in more than one book and still have both books standing alone.

[x] The plot in the second book is completely independent of the first story.

Click to expand...

Essential.

[_] The second book has a prologue that gets the reader up to date (2 pages worth). Question: Should I not include a prologue? It doesn't hurt removing it for new readers. It does update the reader though from the previous book.

Click to expand...

If you need a prologue to get the readers up to date with the story so far, then your book does not stand alone from the first book.

If you've included it so they know what happened in the first book, you're spoiling the market for some people who might buy the first if they enjoy the second.

Agents won't care that you self published the book. Unless it sold several thousand copies it's insiginificant.

Readers who enjoy the book that your agent sells are likely to look you up online, and find your first book. Or they might read an article which links your second to your first. How do you find books written by authors you've enjoyed?

Anything that can be discovered eventually will be, probably by one reader reading both books.

I have a similar, though somewhat opposite scenario that's been bugging me, if you don't mind me barging in.

I wrote the first book in a planned series, and it got published by a small press a little over a year ago. That book hasn't sold well, and the publisher is scaling back generally; so they are not interested in publishing future installments.

You could say: scrap the project, and that very well could be the best advice commercially. If the first book didn't sell, the second book is unlikely to sell either, especially since follow ups tend to do worse than the first. But I've come to terms with realistic expectations. I'm not in a situation where I have to make money on this series, though of course that would be nice. I love the story and believe in it. The first book was actually really well received critically and in the awards world (a Foreword BoTY finalist and an award at the Killer Nashville literary festival). Those credentials just didn't translate into sales.

So, after that long way around, I'm considering self-publishing or querying the second book (which is complete and just about 'polished' for sending out). If I do the latter, I'll have to convince the agent or publisher that it's a stand alone, which I feel is doable with the storyline. Though I would like it recognized as part of a series, as I'd love do future installments; and it would potentially give the first book a boost. What do folks think? Pitch it as book one in a new series? Mention or don't mention the first book's cred? Or think of this as starting from scratch with the series?

AyJay said:

So, after that long way around, I'm considering self-publishing or querying the second book (which is complete and just about 'polished' for sending out). If I do the latter, I'll have to convince the agent or publisher that it's a stand alone, which I feel is doable with the storyline. Though I would like it recognized as part of a series, as I'd love do future installments; and it would potentially give the first book a boost. What do folks think? Pitch it as book one in a new series? Mention or don't mention the first book's cred? Or think of this as starting from scratch with the series?

Click to expand...

I'm in a similar position.

My current plan is to query a standalone novel (I have one about 70% done, but I may abandon it and start over). Assuming I can get an agent with that book, I will discuss with them the possibilities for my next series book. But if it doesn't sell, I'm going to self-publish it, either on Amazon or by making it a free download. (The main advantage I see of "officially" self-publishing it is that it'll get a lot more exposure on a retail web site than it will on my random web page. Also, I'm acutely aware of how many authors are asked to write for "exposure," and although I myself don't need the money, I don't want to contribute to the culture of assuming writers should work for free.)

I suspect querying a series book as a series book is going to be tough. If you genuinely make it a standalone, you might have better luck.

Thanks for the response, Liz, and best of luck with querying! Your advice is well taken, and, as mentioned above, I've been thinking that even if the new book makes no mention of the first, interested readers will connect the dots through my author profile.

Now, TBH, I'm having second thoughts about just how 'complete' the manuscript is. It definitely leaves characters in the story at a new crossroads, since I have in mind the continuation of their stories in another installment; and I'm sure that will bug some readers. Time to do some pondering about the ending...

ForeverYoursCaffiene said:

As I'm going through each chapter, making it stand alone has improved the story dramatically. It feels deeper, like it's its own world and product, if that makes sense.

Question:
There is dialogue that refers to the past, but based on my question on my post above, I think it's passable.

There's one dialogue line while reflecting on the past...
MC: "I miss my friends, and finding ways to annoy Mrs. [name]."

It's meant for a laugh (comic relief in a deep conversation of remembering their homeland), but there's no more reference on the villager he liked to annoy on his spare time. Is it passable and considered stand-alone?

Click to expand...

I'd have to see it in context to be sure, but in general this kind of thing works fine in a standalone novel. All of your characters had lives before the story you're telling. As long as detailed knowledge of the previous event isn't required for the plot to make sense, I think the odd reference to earlier incidents can add realism and texture.

ForeverYoursCaffiene said:

If I need to refer to the past, I think there are still ways to do it while keeping it stand-alone, such as The MC said, "I'm not climbing those again!" It suggests the MC has some history with climbing and it was possibly traumatic. The first book shows why, and the earlier reader gets it, but the dialogue here makes the new reader curious. In other words, dialogue can do wonders for referencing rather than telling the reader with background information in paragraph form. We all have a past, and what led to decisions are not always explained up front in real life, but clued in, so I assume this is okay. I believe this is pretty standard for storytelling and keeps the reader turning pages.

Click to expand...

In the example you gave, if the MC hasn't climbed "those" before in this particular book then making him or her talk about climbing them again is confusing. It doesn't show that they've been climbed before.

For a book to stand alone you can't refer to anything that happened in the first book. A stand alone book is complete and separate on its own, and does not reference anything that happened in the other book.

ForeverYoursCaffiene said:

There is dialogue that refers to the past, but based on my question on my post above, I think it's passable.

There's one dialogue line while reflecting on the past...
MC: "I miss my friends, and finding ways to annoy Mrs. [name]."

It's meant for a laugh (comic relief in a deep conversation of remembering their homeland), but there's no more reference on the villager he liked to annoy on his spare time. Is it passable and considered stand-alone?

Click to expand...

It's confusing. You can't do it if you want this book to be complete as it stands.

ForeverYoursCaffiene said:

Yes, this is becoming more of my general rule. For example, I had a career change, and I sometimes discuss my previous career at my new job through conversation. It didn't cause confusion to the person I was talking to. It made them as for more details. I'm a real person with a background (I hope). In the same way, I think these conversations are fine if it lets the reader to fill in the blanks of the MC's past life. If I start giving background information through dialogue that are more heavy toward the last book's plot, then I would agree there is an issue with that. In fact, I'm removing some of those heavy dialogues right now.

Click to expand...

I'm probably the wrong person to ask, because I make references to events that aren't in that story (or any of the others!) all the time, so obviously I think it's ok.

Worth noting, though, that Old Hack is right in that it can be confusing or distracting. IMHO, though, it really depends on how it's done, and how it's used. (It goes without saying that the book shouldn't have any unnecessary words, full stop.)

ForeverYoursCaffiene said:

Yes, this is becoming more of my general rule. For example, I had a career change, and I sometimes discuss my previous career at my new job through conversation. It didn't cause confusion to the person I was talking to. It made them as for more details. I'm a real person with a background (I hope). In the same way, I think these conversations are fine if it lets the reader to fill in the blanks of the MC's past life. If I start giving background information through dialogue that are more heavy toward the last book's plot, then I would agree there is an issue with that. In fact, I'm removing some of those heavy dialogues right now.

Click to expand...

Bolding mine.


So I fall between Old Hack and lizmonster on this. On the one hand, I do think characters have lives before the story starts. When we start a story, we usually get information about secondary companions this way. We weren't with them in the beginning before they encountered the MC, and they make mentions of their past in dialog. On the other hand, though, I find the examples you give not so much confusing as alienating. There are ways to do it, but your examples aren't quite getting there, imo. The analogy you give above about making mentions of your previous job leading to new coworkers asking questions? The reader can't ask the MC questions. They're stuck with what you choose to include and nothing more. If a character makes a reference to something in the past and it looks like the author wanted me to be curious about it, then I fully expect it to be explained or revealed at some point in the narrative. And I'm pretty annoyed if it isn't.

The problem for me is that in a story (and actually in real life, too), if two people are talking about the past in front of me and making vague references to things that they both get but I don't, I feel left out. I hate to be the new guy in a group where everyone else is telling inside jokes. It's rude and it makes me feel like an outsider. I don't want to feel like an outsider in an adventure book I was excited to read (especially as a kid).

The MC said, "I'm not climbing those again!"
MC: "I miss my friends, and finding ways to annoy Mrs. [name]."

Maybe you just haven't posted enough of the scene for this to make more sense (we can only see what you show us), but these both feel like bits of inside conversation I'm not able to access. So as the reader, I'm expecting more context and a little explanation at some point. These bits don't work for me because I don't know when he climbed "those". I don't know why or what happened to make "those" such an obstacle to him now. Likewise, I don't know anything about the Mrs., who she was to him, or why he felt the need to annoy her. These tidbits don't actually tell me anything about his history, so, as presented, they're meaningless and annoying. They feel like teases for something I'm never going to get clarification on.

The only way I see this working is if there's a "new guy" character in the scene and the MC explains these references (the new guy can stand in for the reader "asking questions"). OR if it's just the MC and other old characters, they do some emotional reflecting or back and forth exchanges to make it clear what they're talking about.

If you're thinking that dropping in little curious tidbits will make the reader want to read the first book for more context because they wonder about the history, then the second book is not standalone.

The more I think about it, everything you include in this story needs to have a purpose that serves this narrative, so if these mentions from the previous book are only there to harken back to the previous book in some way and don't add something important to this new story (i.e., you're trying to slowly reveal important aspects of his past), then it feels like you aren't really committing to making it standalone. You're still feeling the impulse to tie it back. And that's fine, but if that's really what you want to do, I don't see anything wrong with just self publishing this one as a true sequel and then writing and querying a fresh, unrelated novel.