Krampus on skies

AW Amazon Store

If this site is helpful to you,
Please consider a voluntary subscription to defray ongoing expenses.


 

Welcome to the AbsoluteWrite Water Cooler! Please read The Newbie Guide To Absolute Write

Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Questions about concussions

  1. #1
    I bite Tornadoboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Under the artillery range at Fort Wyvern
    Posts
    313

    Questions about concussions

    I've got a female protag whom I need to be knocked out or at least completely dazed and only semi-conscious for about an hour or two, she bangs her head off her car door's window during a crash and is left with a knot above her ear. I don't want her too badly injured, but for the story I need this to happen.

    So here's my questions:

    - I know vomiting is common for people with concussions but I'd rather not have her do that given the situation, so I was wondering if it is believable that she wouldn't vomit having been hit hard enough to do what I described above?

    - Is it believable to have her not bleed if she hit her head that hard?

    - Is it believable that she more or less could mostly return to normal within say 8 to 10 hours, sleeping a good portion of that time?

    - What's the story with keeping people awake with concussions? I know they used to tell you not to let the person sleep, but isn't that just so as to watch for symptoms a serious brain injury? My male protag knows he's not in a position to do anything for her if she does have a serious problem, and I'm thinking of his logic being that if she was going to die from say a brain bleed or something that he'd rather it happen in her sleep.
    Last edited by Tornadoboy; 12-07-2017 at 08:30 AM.
    "I wish I was where I am"

  2. #2
    Evil and sparkly tiddlywinks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Killing pirates aka writing
    Posts
    8,095
    I know from personal family experience that not all people vomit upon receiving a concussion. In fact, said person has never vomited, and they've had multiple concussions, both mild and severe.

    As to the bleeding, I can't attest to that part. Would she have hit the window hard enough to crack it? In which case, she might be cut. Said person mentioned above was once in a car accident and actually slammed their head into the roof of the car. No bleeding. (Again, concussion) For that to work, though, you'd need to think about the angle of the accident and impact.

    Just personal experience - I'm not in a medical profession
    Loves to tell stories. Finds editing a necessary evil. No longer fueled by coffee (again).
    ------------

    *FRESH CRITTER MEAT* "Sweet Tea & Decay" - first 1K of short available for crit

    Red Riding Hood retelling
    - Chapter One (revising)

    Pirate fantasy, Book 1 - Updated Chapter 1 (drafting)
    Russian ballerina vampire romance - Chapter 1 (polishing)
    UF romance with zombies, dwarves 'n biker chicks - Chapter 1 (querying)

    Bloggity blog |
    #Tweety tweets | Pinterest plot bunnies

  3. #3
    Just Another Lazy Perfectionist Brightdreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,445
    My mother had a concussion from a stair fall some years ago, which didn't set in until some time later. She had terrible dizziness/vertigo for days, but no vomiting, and no bleeding from the bump on her head.

    So it's possible to have a concussion without vomiting or without a bleeding head bump... and the symptoms of concussion can be delayed by hours.

    If you just want her badly rattled, enough to make her stunned/disconnected for a while (but not actually concussed), you could probably do that, too; not all head bumps lead to drastic complications.
    - Brightdreamer
    Brightdreamer's Book Reviews

    "Inspiration will strike you, and leave you for dead. The police will do nothing."
    - from The Daily Humorscope

  4. #4
    I bite Tornadoboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Under the artillery range at Fort Wyvern
    Posts
    313
    Quote Originally Posted by tiddlywinks View Post
    I know from personal family experience that not all people vomit upon receiving a concussion. In fact, said person has never vomited, and they've had multiple concussions, both mild and severe.

    As to the bleeding, I can't attest to that part. Would she have hit the window hard enough to crack it? In which case, she might be cut. Said person mentioned above was once in a car accident and actually slammed their head into the roof of the car. No bleeding. (Again, concussion) For that to work, though, you'd need to think about the angle of the accident and impact.

    Just personal experience - I'm not in a medical profession
    Note: I just edited and expanded my questions right as you replied, so I've got a few more questions now.

    I'd rather not have her bleed or be seriously injured so having her smash the window with her head would probably be too suggestive of a really bad injury, so I want to avoid that if it's plausible. The car rolls a few times, though it's down a hill and not from momentum so it wouldn't be too violent, but having her head hit the roof would be plausible.

    The mechanics of the crash is them sliding backwards down a steep hill during a severe blizzard, car rolling a few times, smashing off of trees until the car finally smashes her side into a particularly solid tree which caves in the passenger's back door behind her. She also ends up with a sprained shoulder on that side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brightdreamer View Post
    My mother had a concussion from a stair fall some years ago, which didn't set in until some time later. She had terrible dizziness/vertigo for days, but no vomiting, and no bleeding from the bump on her head.

    So it's possible to have a concussion without vomiting or without a bleeding head bump... and the symptoms of concussion can be delayed by hours.

    If you just want her badly rattled, enough to make her stunned/disconnected for a while (but not actually concussed), you could probably do that, too; not all head bumps lead to drastic complications.
    I need her to pretty much be unaware, unable to stand, walk and pretty much have no understanding of what's going on for a while, in other words in a complete semi-conscious daze like she's almost asleep, again a couple hours would be convenient. Think "someone so drunk they can't stand, can only mumble incoherently and keeps passing out"
    Last edited by Tornadoboy; 12-07-2017 at 08:45 AM.
    "I wish I was where I am"

  5. #5
    The Tripinnate Kitkitdizzi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Hibernation
    Posts
    471
    This happened to me. I was t-boned in an intersection. I was doing a left turn (in a Ford Ranger) and an SUV ran the red light and hit the back of my truck at about 40-45 miles an hour, ripping the wheel off the rear axle. He rolled, his trailer detached and smashed the front of my truck, and I spun off into a signal post. Don't remember any of it, because my head hit the side window. I briefly came to, couldn't see well because my glasses fell off, and found people banging on my passenger-side window asking if I could open the door (I had manual locks and the light pole was pressed against the driver side door). I passed out again but apparently got the door open because the next thing I recall was being put on a gurney and rolled into the ambulance. Reading my accident report is kinda a hoot because I was apparently talking to the cop but had no idea where I was or what I was doing (except I said I needed lightbulbs) and I don't remember any our conversation. I couldn't tell the EMTs who was president or how old I was.

    I was in the hospital for about 4 hours. In and out of it for most of triage and the CT scan. After a few hours I was pretty aware again and finally started feeling pain (that's when they gave me morphine). Was very dizzy when I tried to stand but didn't throw up until about 12 hours later (and that might have been from the pain meds).

    In addition to a very tender head (I didn't bleed) I had seat belt burns on my neck and an epic bruise on my thigh from where it also apparently hit the door.
    Fueled by the coffee Tiddlywinks says she gave up...(though she's totally lying)


  6. #6
    Evil and sparkly tiddlywinks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Killing pirates aka writing
    Posts
    8,095
    Heh. Okay, let's see. Again, this is just from personal family experience, so take with grain of salt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoboy View Post
    So here's my questions:

    - I know vomiting is common for people with concussions but I'd rather not have her do that given the situation, so I was wondering if it is believable that she wouldn't vomit having been hit hard enough to do what I described above? Yep, as per my previous answer.

    - Is it believable to have her not bleed if she hit her head that hard? You mention in your followup response that the car rolls a couple of times. Not sure how easy it would be to walk away from that without scraping up a bit there, but I could see it, maybe? As to the head injury itself, that I could believe. I've also seen a concussion from smacking one's head against a cement pillar, crashing into the pavement, etc. and no bleeding. (*sigh* don't ask)

    - Is it believable that she more or less could mostly return to normal within say 8 to 10 hours, sleeping a good portion of that time? Depends on how bad the concussion is, when it sets in, etc. If she rests her brain -- meaning avoiding tv, music, computer, anything that would tax her mental faculties -- It also might depend on whether she's had a concussion before. General rule of thumb seems to be a couple of days before you're really back to 'normal', though you may continue to experience side effects for longer like fuzzy thinking, being extra tired, headaches, concentration problems, noise sensitivity, etc. From personal experience, I'd still question her judgement and ability to fully function any less than 24 hours after. And if you actually have her lose consciousness, that could imply a more severe injury.

    - What's the story with keeping people awake with concussions? I know they used to tell you not to let the person sleep, but isn't that just so as to watch for symptoms a serious brain injury? My male protag knows he's not in a position to do anything for her if she does have a serious problem, and I'm thinking of his logic being that if she was going to die from say a brain bleed or something that he'd rather it happen in her sleep. Again, don't quote me because not doctor, but it's to monitor the person for signs of a more serious brain injury. If they show more severe symptoms (repeated vomiting, dilated pupils, trouble walking, can't carry a conversation), that could be a sign they've suffered more severe trauma. Otherwise, rest is okay and recommended. Not much you can do other than rest, both physically and mentally.
    Hope this helps.

    ETA: Cross posted with KitKit - my personal family crash dummy was also t-boned and hit the roof of the car. Like Kitkit, they were babbling a storm and pretty out of it when pulled out of the car. Memories are pretty sketchy for that entire time period. Unfortunately, they ended up with post concussion syndrome, which is why I can't really answer your recovery time. But I fell on the ice last year and smacked my head on the pavement - ended up with a 'light' concussion and it was still about 3 days until I was back to normal.
    Last edited by tiddlywinks; 12-08-2017 at 02:05 AM.
    Loves to tell stories. Finds editing a necessary evil. No longer fueled by coffee (again).
    ------------

    *FRESH CRITTER MEAT* "Sweet Tea & Decay" - first 1K of short available for crit

    Red Riding Hood retelling
    - Chapter One (revising)

    Pirate fantasy, Book 1 - Updated Chapter 1 (drafting)
    Russian ballerina vampire romance - Chapter 1 (polishing)
    UF romance with zombies, dwarves 'n biker chicks - Chapter 1 (querying)

    Bloggity blog |
    #Tweety tweets | Pinterest plot bunnies

  7. #7
    I bite Tornadoboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Under the artillery range at Fort Wyvern
    Posts
    313
    Quote Originally Posted by tiddlywinks View Post
    Hope this helps.
    Most definitely, thanks!

    As far as being scraped up that wouldn't be a problem, I just don't want her severely injured or bleeding heavily. I want her to be able to function again within a day, but the occasional brief spell of dizziness and vertigo wouldn't get in the way. The whole point of this part of the story is forcing two people who normally don't particularly care for each other to have to re-evaluate their opinions and develop a friendship.
    Last edited by Tornadoboy; 12-07-2017 at 09:03 AM.
    "I wish I was where I am"

  8. #8
    The Tripinnate Kitkitdizzi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Hibernation
    Posts
    471
    Quote Originally Posted by tiddlywinks View Post
    ETA: Cross posted with KitKit - my personal family crash dummy was also t-boned and hit the roof of the car. Like Kitkit, they were babbling a storm and pretty out of it when pulled out of the car. Memories are pretty sketchy for that entire time period. Unfortunately, they ended up with post concussion syndrome, which is why I can't really answer your recovery time. But I fell on the ice last year and smacked my head on the pavement - ended up with a 'light' concussion and it was still about 3 days until I was back to normal.
    Ahem. Kitkit does not babble.

    I did have post concussion syndrome too. I could function the day after, but I was in a lot of pain. After that I had chronic headaches and was on Nortriptyline for about two years. I also had muscle spasm and cramping issues in my neck, shoulders, and upper back as my top two vertebrae were pushed forward out of alignment with my spine. About a year-and-a-half of physically therapy to get over most of that.

    The guy who hit me also ended up at the same hospital and ended up in the same room as me. We were curtained off from each other but I could hear him complaining to a friend that his head hurt because he hit the roof when the car rolled. Guy was lucky I couldn't figure out where the floor was to go over there and give him a piece of my mind.
    Fueled by the coffee Tiddlywinks says she gave up...(though she's totally lying)


  9. #9
    Evil and sparkly tiddlywinks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Killing pirates aka writing
    Posts
    8,095
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitkitdizzi View Post
    Ahem. Kitkit does not babble.
    Mm-hmm.

    *cough* ask her about the pitcher of Margaritas *cough*
    Loves to tell stories. Finds editing a necessary evil. No longer fueled by coffee (again).
    ------------

    *FRESH CRITTER MEAT* "Sweet Tea & Decay" - first 1K of short available for crit

    Red Riding Hood retelling
    - Chapter One (revising)

    Pirate fantasy, Book 1 - Updated Chapter 1 (drafting)
    Russian ballerina vampire romance - Chapter 1 (polishing)
    UF romance with zombies, dwarves 'n biker chicks - Chapter 1 (querying)

    Bloggity blog |
    #Tweety tweets | Pinterest plot bunnies

  10. #10
    The Tripinnate Kitkitdizzi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Hibernation
    Posts
    471
    Quote Originally Posted by tiddlywinks View Post
    Mm-hmm.

    *cough* ask her about the pitcher of Margaritas *cough*
    Hey! That was my alter-ego, Tequila. I don't let her out much.
    And I thought what happens in San Francisco stays in San Francisco.

    Sorry, OP. This is what happens when Winks and I end up on the same thread.
    Fueled by the coffee Tiddlywinks says she gave up...(though she's totally lying)


  11. #11
    practical experience, FTW cornflake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    13,867
    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoboy View Post
    I've got a female protag whom I need to be knocked out or at least completely dazed and only semi-conscious for about an hour or two, she bangs her head off her car door's window during a crash and is left with a knot above her ear. I don't want her too badly injured, but for the story I need this to happen.

    So here's my questions:

    - I know vomiting is common for people with concussions but I'd rather not have her do that given the situation, so I was wondering if it is believable that she wouldn't vomit having been hit hard enough to do what I described above?

    - Is it believable to have her not bleed if she hit her head that hard?

    Those are immaterial -- bleeding occurs if you break blood vessels and/or the skin, has nothing to do with a closed head injury. The first q. is individual. Your larger problem is knocking someone out for AN HOUR OR TWO. That's likely a serious head injury. Someone was unconscious for an hour after a closed head injury I'd assume they're going to end up in ICU if they're lucky. If they're dazed for a couple of hours, that's not a concussion you're walking away from feeling fine either. You're going to be a good mess for a good while


    - Is it believable that she more or less could mostly return to normal within say 8 to 10 hours, sleeping a good portion of that time?

    No. Concussions don't disappear. You're talking about what sounds like a severe head injury though, so I dunno what to tell you but even a mild concussion might leave someone feeling ok that day or the next, but will come back to bite them in the ass.

    - What's the story with keeping people awake with concussions? I know they used to tell you not to let the person sleep, but isn't that just so as to watch for symptoms a serious brain injury? My male protag knows he's not in a position to do anything for her if she does have a serious problem, and I'm thinking of his logic being that if she was going to die from say a brain bleed or something that he'd rather it happen in her sleep.
    You're meant to keep someone awake and/or wake them every couple of hours so that if they did suffer a more serious injury than was apparent, they don't slip into a coma or drop dead while asleep, because, say, they have a bleed that depresses respiration and basic function. Someone who was unconscious for an hour, or anything close, is in a hospital.

  12. #12
    Mentoring Myself and Others Debbie V's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,900
    My daughter had a very mild concussion this spring. No loss of consciousness or dizziness. We didn't even think she had a concussion until she woke up feeling woozy the next morning. She passed the neuro exam, but her symptoms were enough for it to be labelled a concussion by the pediatrician. Protocal was that she couldn't return to sports or anything else that might jar her brain until one week after the final symptom. She ended up missing a week and a half because she shook her head hard one day in class and then felt dizzy.

    More severe concussions are treated by total rest. No visual stimulation, especially blue light. No TV, dark room, etc. So a return to fully normal is unlikely after such a short time.

  13. #13
    practical experience, FTW heza's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    4,181
    Quote Originally Posted by cornflake
    Your larger problem is knocking someone out for AN HOUR OR TWO. That's likely a serious head injury. Someone was unconscious for an hour after a closed head injury I'd assume they're going to end up in ICU if they're lucky. If they're dazed for a couple of hours, that's not a concussion you're walking away from feeling fine either. You're going to be a good mess for a good while


    This.

    I never gave much thought to people getting knocked out in books or movies/tv shows until I had a concussion. Now, all I can think is, "OMG. That person needs a CT scan ASAP!" and I'm very skeptical that someone could be "out" for an hour or two and then just bounce back to normal. And I never really noticed before how often it happens. It ruined action movies for me.

    For me, I had a light injury. I was playing in the floor with my dog, and she head butted me. The top of her head got me on the edge of one of my brow bones. I fell over, blacked out for a second, and the spot on my brow bone swelled up to just a little smaller than a ping pong ball. My husband rushed me to the ER. I was dizzy and had trouble walking a straight line and needed help.

    The biggest problem was that I could not think. Like, how to open the door, how to get my seat belt on, where to go when we got to the ER. I was conscious and standing (mostly), but I was totally helpless. I couldn't have a conversation. The funny thing was, the doctor had me in the examining room and asked me what happened. I just looked at my husband, and he explained. Well, this set off warnings for the doctor, and he asked my husband to help the nurse with paperwork out at the desk. Then he asked me again. I could tell he wanted something from me, and I tried. I did. But it came out like, "Dog. And the... carpet. There was... I knee... I... with car and tea, so hand." And then he brought my husband back in and asked him to explain it again. Lol. I can remember most of what happened, but at the time, I couldn't make sense of it.

    I had a CT scan to check for brain bleeds but didn't have any. They didn't make me stay awake for any specific amount of time or anything, but I had to have another scan two days later because bleeds can show up afterward. After a couple of hours I was doing better, making more sense and was more aware of my environment. I wasn't supposed to use my brain for a full week. I still have bouts of dizziness I think are related.


    ETA: And I did not vomit. I did vomit and pass out briefly when I broke my ankle, though.
    Last edited by heza; 12-07-2017 at 10:26 PM.
    WIPs

    Untitled <-- Supernatural MG (drafting)
    Tobias Tinker <-- Clockpunk MG (on hold)
    Freak Town <-- Paranormal YA (on hold)
    Huntington House <-- Paranormal YA (on hold)




  14. #14
    practical experience, FTW neandermagnon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    3,175
    The England Rugby website has some good videos about concussion, i.e. causes, symptoms, red flags, recovery and returning to play after concussion. http://www.englandrugby.com/my-rugby...sion-headcase/

    I agree with everyone who said that being knocked out for an hour would be considered a serious medical emergency, and following a car accident would mean a trip in an ambulance or maybe even an air ambulance. It's possible they'd already be in the ICU or at least being seen by doctors (scans, etc, to check for brain bleeds and similar) by the time they come around. If there's a brain bleed (which is what doctors will be worried about and scanning for if someone's been unconscious for that long) then they'd have emergency surgery. After anything like that, the patient would be kept in hospital and not let home the same day. I don't know how long they'd have to stay in hospital for, but even without being unconscious for an entire hour, lots of head injury patients would be kept in overnight for observations. Patients with mild concussion are sent home the same day. Mild concussion often doesn't involve being knocked out at all, or it involves being knocked out only for a few moments.
    my blog - cave people and stuff - an imaginative look at palaeolithic life: http://cavepeopleandstuff.wordpress.com/

  15. #15
    figuring it all out
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    82
    I hit my lip on a steering wheel in an accident going 35mph. I did not black out, no vomiting, thought I was fine.

    Three days later, I suddenly had no use of numbers (I went to work, tried to ring a credit card and was like, "WTF, someone needs to drive me home"), and I knew what I wanted to say, but I'd say the wrong word starting with another letter. I was like that for six weeks. I couldn't be around lights, I physically couldn't keep my eyes focused on reading, and I slept CONSTANTLY. No driving.

    I saw doctors and they basically told me to sit at home and do nothing. The only thing they could do for me was document that I saw them with complaints for insurance claims. I feel like a lot of people didn't take me seriously because I DIDN'T black out.

    I had random crying spells for the following couple of months and felt emotionally flat for a long time. Weird hormonal changes I think were linked in part to spinal misalignment. Chiropractic ended up being the best thing ever, but I had to find that years later on my own.

    Anyway, concussions are strange things. The effects don't have to manifest immediately. I was "basically normal" after about six weeks, like able to count pocket change, read, and say what I meant again. But depending on the nature of the accident, there can also be all sorts of long term weirdness to contend with, too. To this day, when I write, I often type a wrong but phonetically similar word, which I never used to do before.

  16. #16
    Evil and sparkly tiddlywinks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Killing pirates aka writing
    Posts
    8,095
    Good catch by cornflake on the “being out for an hour or two”. I missed that last night when responding. That’s bad news.

    Also, not to get on a soapbox, but having someone be “fine” after several hours versus days, weeks, months...it trivializes the severity of a concussion. It’s head trauma. To the brain. It doesn’t just go away. Even if you have a mild one, there are symptoms that linger or that you may not realize you have until later. (And sometimes what may seem mild initially can result in post concussion syndrome...) If you aren’t as lucky, it can have lifelong implications.
    Last edited by tiddlywinks; 12-08-2017 at 02:07 AM.
    Loves to tell stories. Finds editing a necessary evil. No longer fueled by coffee (again).
    ------------

    *FRESH CRITTER MEAT* "Sweet Tea & Decay" - first 1K of short available for crit

    Red Riding Hood retelling
    - Chapter One (revising)

    Pirate fantasy, Book 1 - Updated Chapter 1 (drafting)
    Russian ballerina vampire romance - Chapter 1 (polishing)
    UF romance with zombies, dwarves 'n biker chicks - Chapter 1 (querying)

    Bloggity blog |
    #Tweety tweets | Pinterest plot bunnies

  17. #17
    practical experience, FTW MaeZe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Ralph's side of the island.
    Posts
    4,159
    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoboy View Post
    I've got a female protag whom I need to be knocked out or at least completely dazed and only semi-conscious for about an hour or two, she bangs her head off her car door's window during a crash and is left with a knot above her ear. I don't want her too badly injured, but for the story I need this to happen.

    So here's my questions:

    - I know vomiting is common for people with concussions but I'd rather not have her do that given the situation, so I was wondering if it is believable that she wouldn't vomit having been hit hard enough to do what I described above?
    Leave it out, your readers won't care.

    - Is it believable to have her not bleed if she hit her head that hard?
    Yes.

    - Is it believable that she more or less could mostly return to normal within say 8 to 10 hours, sleeping a good portion of that time?
    If she's going to be really out for more than a couple minutes, then it's going to take more than 24 hours to be back to normal.

    And adding to what others said, being out for more than a few minutes is a very serious concussion.

    - What's the story with keeping people awake with concussions? I know they used to tell you not to let the person sleep, but isn't that just so as to watch for symptoms a serious brain injury? My male protag knows he's not in a position to do anything for her if she does have a serious problem, and I'm thinking of his logic being that if she was going to die from say a brain bleed or something that he'd rather it happen in her sleep.
    You let people sleep. You check on them at regular intervals to make sure they are not going into a coma which would happen with internal head bleeding. If you can't wake the person up, that's bad. But it's not like an overdose where you actually do keep the person awake to stimulate them to breathe.
    Last edited by MaeZe; 12-08-2017 at 03:50 AM.

  18. #18
    I bite Tornadoboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Under the artillery range at Fort Wyvern
    Posts
    313
    Hmmmm... all interesting stuff, I've got to think long and hard of how I play all that out, it doesn't need to be absolutely perfect but I want it fairly realistic and believable.

    They're on their own so getting her to an ER or any medical help for that matter is out of the question, though my male protag isn't stupid, under normal circumstances he wouldn't move her and immediately call an ambulance if it was possible, but regardless they're beyond help for a few days and leaving her in the car isn't a viable option.

    Point of having her "out cold" is I don't want her involved in any decisions for a while including stuff involving her own person or even being able to walk on her own, there are reasons this works for the story, she's not a passive person normally but I want my MP suddenly thrown in charge of everything including her. But I don't actually need her totally unconscious per se, perhaps having her "dazed and confused" for a while would serve the same purpose, just as long as she's not able to really understand what's going on. And I don't need her perfectly back to normal after a few hours, just "back in the game" so to speak, able to understand what's going on and ask/answer questions, and for realism I can probably throw in the occasional dizzy spell or vertigo without it altering things too much. And hours later after sleeping (figure 5 or 6 hours) I'd like her to be even more with it, able to walk and participate in things, though my MP would rather she just stay laying down as again he's not an idiot and knows she shouldn't be standing up.

    And I know what you mean about how ridiculous head injuries and being unconscious are often treated, like the cliche of "hit on the back of the head - out cold" cliche, as if such a blow couldn't cause serious injury or death, and the person always instantly pops awake like Michigan J Frog jumping up and dancing. You'd all love the book I'm reading now (title and author shall remain nameless), the female protag was completely out cold for like 12 hours and after maybe another 6 or so she's up violent attacking someone with full force.

    Also here's a weird question: How would this effect having a post traumatic flashback? I was thinking of having her suffer one as she starts to regain her senses and have it be pretty scary for the MP, he thinks it's due to her head injury though it's really not. Again, you'd have to know the story to understand why I'd have her do that, it would help set some things in motion.
    Last edited by Tornadoboy; 12-08-2017 at 04:13 AM.

  19. #19
    practical experience, FTW MaeZe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Ralph's side of the island.
    Posts
    4,159
    Quote Originally Posted by heza View Post
    ... I never gave much thought to people getting knocked out in books or movies/tv shows until I had a concussion. Now, all I can think is, "OMG. That person needs a CT scan ASAP!" and I'm very skeptical that someone could be "out" for an hour or two and then just bounce back to normal. And I never really noticed before how often it happens. It ruined action movies for me.....
    Drives me crazy but no one around me seems to mind.

    I hate movies where:

    Women faint and are unconscious for some convenient amount of time. Bull shit, that does not happen. Even if you did faint seeing the scary giant gorilla (which is also doubtful), the minute you were supine you would wake up.

    Men are punched and they become unconscious for some convenient amount of time. Nope, that doesn't happen either. I don't know if there is some ninja move where you can knock a person out but regardless the way being knocked out is portrayed in the movies is baloney.

    Last edited by MaeZe; 12-08-2017 at 04:00 AM.

  20. #20
    practical experience, FTW Cekrit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    140
    I've had plenty of concussions from sports and nave never vomited so that's believable. 8-10 hour recovery time is not realistic and the character should NOT sleep, she might not wake up. I am ignorant to the science behind why they shouldn't sleep but whenever I got one as a kid I was advised to stay awake as late as possible until I essentially crashed or pull an all-night thing, and my mum would check on me through the night which for the most part was just poking her head in and realizing I was still up playing videogames(which i shouldn't have been doing either. ) Dizziness and not being fully back to myself would persist through the week, so your character will no way be in her tip top form less than 12 hours later.

    It is possible to get knocked out without a concussion I believe. I don't imagine every fighter every KO'd has a concussion each time.

    I'm with MaeZe- I hate how in movies a non-forceful chop to the neck knocks out an apprentice as the master rushes into battle, or a little bump knocks someone out and leaves them helpless.

    I think an accident can knock someone out, or at least put them in a daze long enough to help your story.

    You could also just make the recovery from the accident last the two hours you need by say, making her fall down a ditch with the car or off a small cliff and somehow surviving. The time it takes for her to get back to society might be better than starting her off with health concerns.

    Also: the headaches through the week were terrible. I ended up getting enough concussions that I started to get chronic migraines and was put on a pretty heady medication for them. I'm talking mid sentence *blacks out* type effects. So be careful.
    Last edited by Cekrit; 12-08-2017 at 04:29 AM.
    Sera needs you! [YA dystopian fantasy]

    Follow this link to Amazon:

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072MRC157

  21. #21
    I bite Tornadoboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Under the artillery range at Fort Wyvern
    Posts
    313
    Quote Originally Posted by Cekrit View Post
    l no way be in her tip top form less than 12 hours later.
    That's not a problem, she has a full 24 hours she can be out of whack to one degree or another, though after a couple is when I want her to start pulling herself gradually back together and start participating in what's going on, any longer than that and it probably suggests far worse a head injury than I want to assign to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cekrit View Post
    It is possible to get knockYou could also just make the recovery from the accident last the two hours you need by say, making her fall down a ditch with the car or off a small cliff and somehow surviving. The time it takes for her to get back to society might be better than starting her off with health concerns.
    Nah, they're completely on their owns for like 3 days and she's with him the whole time, I've already got plausible reasons set up for that, it's just the taking her out of the decisions for a while is what I need to figure out without damaging her too much or bending the laws of medical science.

    I also like how people trade punches back and forth in an orderly fashion when fighting in movies, and how gunshots to the shoulder are always "minor" injuries, and never cause permanent nerve, muscle or bone damage, fatal bleeding or send the bullet ricocheting somewhere critical like the heart or lungs.
    Last edited by Tornadoboy; 12-08-2017 at 04:43 AM.
    "I wish I was where I am"

  22. #22
    practical experience, FTW Cekrit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    140
    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoboy View Post
    I also like how people trade punches back and forth in an orderly fashion when fighting in movies, and how gunshots to the shoulder are always "minor" injuries, and never cause permanent nerve, muscle or bone damage, fatal bleeding or send the bullet ricocheting somewhere critical like the heart or lungs.
    Bullets only temporarily damage actors until they see their show's white mage. I just finished The Punisher, and this guy gets shot at least twice an episode and ends up walking out season standing perfectly fine in a god damned tailored suit.
    Sera needs you! [YA dystopian fantasy]

    Follow this link to Amazon:

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072MRC157

  23. #23
    practical experience, FTW cornflake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    13,867
    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoboy View Post
    That's not a problem, she has a full 24 hours she can be out of whack to one degree or another, though after a couple is when I want her to start pulling herself gradually back together and start participating in what's going on, any longer than that and it probably suggests far worse a head injury than I want to assign to her.


    Nah, they're completely on their owns for like 3 days and she's with him the whole time, I've already got plausible reasons set up for that, it's just the taking her out of the decisions for a while is what I need to figure out without damaging her too much or bending the laws of medical science.

    I also like how people trade punches back and forth in an orderly fashion when fighting in movies, and how gunshots to the shoulder are always "minor" injuries, and never cause permanent nerve, muscle or bone damage, fatal bleeding or send the bullet ricocheting somewhere critical like the heart or lungs.
    If she's addled for an hour or two she's not getting herself back together in a couple of hours, or being out of whack for only 24, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cekrit View Post
    Bullets only temporarily damage actors until they see their show's white mage. I just finished The Punisher, and this guy gets shot at least twice an episode and ends up walking out season standing perfectly fine in a god damned tailored suit.
    What bugs me more is people getting shot and falling over, falling backwards, etc., as if bullets have that power. They do not.

    If someone falls over after getting shot it's either a near-fatal wound that's causing an immediate dire injury (like a shot to the head or through the heart/lungs), or it's from the shock of being shot. Otherwise, save a monster bullet at super close range, and even then, you keep standing. In movies/on tv, people get shot and tip over like they were hit with a bat, or fly backwards as if it carried an immense force.

  24. #24
    practical experience, FTW neandermagnon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    3,175
    Quote Originally Posted by Cekrit View Post
    I've had plenty of concussions from sports and nave never vomited so that's believable. 8-10 hour recovery time is not realistic and the character should NOT sleep, she might not wake up. I am ignorant to the science behind why they shouldn't sleep but whenever I got one as a kid I was advised to stay awake as late as possible until I essentially crashed or pull an all-night thing, and my mum would check on me through the night which for the most part was just poking her head in and realizing I was still up playing videogames(which i shouldn't have been doing either. )
    The advice from England Rugby (they have a lot of good info on concussion seeing as there's a risk of concussion from playing rugby) is that it's beneficial to sleep after a concussion and playing video games is a bad idea. Anything that requires intense attention/focus/thinking is a bad idea and avoiding screens is a good idea, just because the brain needs to rest so it can recover.

    The reason it's advised that first aiders try to keep someone awake if they have a head injury is that if someone has a brain bleed (i.e. inside the skull) and they go to sleep, they're not actually going to sleep they're falling into a coma. If that happens they need medical treatment urgently or they'll die. If someone's already asleep, you won't notice that they've gone into a coma, hence not get life saving treatment in time. However, once someone's been checked out by medical professionals, they can be allowed to sleep but would require monitoring, i.e. someone checking up on them every hour or so check they can be awoken. If someone's kept in overnight for observation after a head injury, nurses will do this and will assess them for GCS* score. If it's a mild concussion and they're sent home they'll ask a family member to check this, however when my daughter got a concussion playing rugby they said it wasn't necessary to check on her every couple of hours, maybe it was every 4 hrs, can't remember. The NHS give you a card with what signs to watch for after a head injury and when to dial 999. If they think the person has that much risk that the head injury will get worse they won't be sent home in the first place.

    *Glasgow coma scale - dunno if this is just used in the UK seeing as it has a UK place name, 3 = in a coma, 15 = fully conscious and being asleep doesn't make the score lower as long as they are sleeping normally and can be awakened.

    Note re OP's question about vomiting: regarding vomiting - I was told by the A&E nurse that vomiting once is nothing to worry about. Vomiting repeatedly = dial 999.

    Nausea (with or without vomiting) is a symptom of concussion but the exact symptoms you get is very individual and it's totally plausible to not get any nausea or vomiting. Repeated vomiting is a sign of bleeding in the brain (hence the advice to dial 999) so if someone is repeatedly vomiting from the head injury but then makes a full recovery a few hours later and no medical intervention, that would be implausible.



    In case it's of any relevance to anyone's story, if someone has a severe head injury with bleeding inside the skull, it's common for them to have a lucid interval after the injury. They may or may not lose consciousness or have a low GCS score (partial consciousness) immediately after the injury, but they then have a period of being fully conscious or nearly fully conscious, and then later their condition declines rapidly and they go into a coma. The advice given for dealing with patients immediately after a head injury has to take this into account and that can be extremely hard to tell the difference between a mild/moderately concussed person returning to normal consciousness and someone with a severe head injury having a lucid interval, which is why they'll do x-rays and brain scans to check for bleeding in the brain. If brain scans aren't available and/or they're not going to be in hospital for a while they need to be extra vigilant about any sign the patient is deteriorating, and keeping the patient awake makes it easier to spot those signs.
    Last edited by neandermagnon; 12-10-2017 at 06:02 PM.
    my blog - cave people and stuff - an imaginative look at palaeolithic life: http://cavepeopleandstuff.wordpress.com/

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Custom Search