Word Count getting too high partly because of Deep POV

I would advice you to not care too much about the word count (not yet at least); after all, you're still working on your manuscript. Also, I don't think limiting yourself to one deep monologue per chapter is the right way to go.
As for your question, I write it as often as it's necessary, but most often they aren't that long (half a page, or around that) and appear multiple times in a chapter. I would advice you to do the same, and maybe not write too long segments of third level emotion, and keep it fairly short and on-point; meaning, don't rabble, just narrate what is absolutely necessary.
But, of course, you're free to decide for yourself. You could experiment and try out different lengths and "frequents" of monologues, and discover what feels right for you. What works best for you.

Questioner.

autumnjoy said:

I've put it in every chapter, but I wonder if it's necessary to do it that much

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Writing is different from following a recipe while cooking dinner. You can't really measure out a cup of emotion, or spoonful of action, or anything like that. You put as much emotion, or action, or whatever, as is necessary. And how much is necessary is going to be very specific for your book, even very specific for one particular scene, or chapter. Yes, emotional depth will enhance your book. But it's not possible to just say, ok, do this once per chapter, or once every dozen pages, or measure it out in ounces. I don't think I've ever counted how many times it happens that a character goes deep in thought and explores their emotions on something. I'm reading a thriller at the moment and the POV characters do a lot of what you'd call "third level emotion" - several times per chapter, and the book is not particularly long at all.

autumnjoy said:

I'm 3/4 of the way through drafting my mss, but the first half is 99% edited...

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Stop editing, get your butt in the chair and write the other quarter. Then you can review and edit, cutting what needs to be cut to make the story great. After it's absolutely perfect, check the word count.

Jeff

autumnjoy said:

For those of you including "third level emotion" segments, how often are you doing it? As I said, I've put it in every chapter, but I wonder if it's necessary to do it that much to keep reader drawn deep into story, or if it's best to save it for the truly super intense moments?

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If I understand what you mean by that (and I'm not sure I do; maybe you could define it? Not all of us have read the book), I do it when it's appropriate in the story. Every chapter feels like too much, but then, maybe I've got the wrong idea of what it is.

I do agree with the others that shouldn't worry about the word count right now. Finish the story, and then you can see what you need to keep and what you can get rid of.

I would say, emotion shouldn't be a segment that you put in. It should be like a lampshade, that you use to filter your metaphorical light; the colour alters everythign in the room. Emotions and character alter every scene and event accordingly.

"The Emotional Craft of Fiction" by Maass

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Okay, so, I've seen that book mentioned before, and this finally made me go and pick it up. It's awesome. I know I hit on some of this stuff intuitively, but it's awesome to have tangible formulas for ripping people's hearts out.

That being said, if you're using those techniques effectively, I think word count is a non-issue. If I care about the characters, I'm going to read more, faster. If the book is shorter, but everyone is dull, I wouldn't get through it.

My impression is that any time something is emotionally significant, you want to get in there and build those layers of emotional conflict. Not everything has to be pages, small details can be just as powerful. But any scene with emotions that doesn't explore the conflict that comes with them could be improved... or so it occurred to me, going over my own ms, anyway.

You can always cut and rephrase in editing. If you have a lot of ideas for juicy conflict, I'd put them on paper first so you don't skip over incorporating something grand, and then re-examine them later.

Harlequin said:

I would say, emotion shouldn't be a segment that you put in. It should be like a lampshade, that you use to filter your metaphorical light; the colour alters everythign in the room. Emotions and character alter every scene and event accordingly.

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Ooooooooooooooooo!

+2!

From what I can gather, Maas works with something that linguists who study literature use: referential material, that is: material that hits a reader on a personal level because they're exposed to it daily in their lives. And it's using that known material to forward the unknown in a plot and, ultimately, character emotion. On a wider level, it can come down to a shared social experience. War of the Worlds worked so well because it was written at the height of UK superiority, where us from the UK thought we were invincible, so having a force come in take that down was--perfect!

Welles took what was known by a group (schema-reinforcing material), and turned it on its head (schema-refreshing material).

Fiction is always a relationship between author-character-reader. Authors need to know their characters, sure, but they need to understand how the reader would react in that situation too, because the reader isn't only along for the ride, they're piecing it all together, and they'll use their experience to do that. If you're not hitting that reader experience, you're not going to have the reader feel anything.

On word count, lol. Hm. My first was 110k, my second, 120k, with the fifth novel to my series coming in part 1 and 2 because it's touching 140k, with another 5 chapters to write. Some of that will be lost in editing with the publisher, but word length, I don't really worry. Story is important at this stage.

With my first novel, I worked on the basic of saying "Don't do that". It's something we're all told. It's also something you get an urge to disobey and... do. So taking that and having a guy with conduct disorder, who will disobey, then using a predator to say "Don't... do that.", he gets the guy with conduct disorder to do exactly what he wants through disobedience. The reader's caught with it because they've felt urge to disobey when someone's told them: Don't.

Harlequin said:

I would say, emotion shouldn't be a segment that you put in. It should be like a lampshade, that you use to filter your metaphorical light; the colour alters everythign in the room. Emotions and character alter every scene and event accordingly.

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Very nicely put.

Yo,

There's a reason cooking has recipes to begin with ... and a reason some cooks don't use 'em, and so, don't feel too bad about taking one path or the other. 2 cents.

Stepping outside the whole thing - It is somewhat artificial that a novel should be any defined length (70 - 150K, I mean, why?) It's weird that every paperback at B&N is the same width. (=recipe).

I'm right now trying to add in a new element of narration into my WIP, it almost borders on snark, and I am trying to add it once per chapter. I want one example of a little snarky observation, from the narrator, every chapter. Look, there's no other way for me to try this, than to simply try it. So, WTH. I'll see on the next read through if it works. Some of these characters deserve snark now and then.

I like the idea of the title you mentioned and it sounds like a similar idea to me - Try it and see if it fits.

Anyway - Bottom line - kudos! I'm impressed with what you've tried and where you are going. It sounds cool - and I'm debating putting the book on my X-mas wish list.

Also, anecdotally, when I started writing this novel, I wanted 20 chapters, each 5K words. It was very clear cut. I achieved that in draft 1. It was a structure that worked for me. Why not?

But it's morphed, and I now have 27 chapters, and they are each closer to 3500 words. I'm finding all sorts of things to cut, like you. I bet you've added new stuff, too. I bet you're happier with what you have now, than draft 1. I bet it feels more like it has a life of its own, rather than being a wrestled-into-shape string of words.

Don't sweat it. You are awesome. You're doing great!

I think I realized what bothered me enough about the "third level emotion" to make a post about it: I normally don't use metaphors that much in my writing, so using them to begin some of the "third level emotion" bits, I was afraid those passages would stick out like a sore thumb, because at first they did to me. "Oh, here's where I compared this to that, so now we're launching into a paragraph about how angry she is," etc.

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Have you tried running a sample of your third level emotion passages by some betas? I'm asking because I just rewrote my opening to experiment with third level content, sent it to my most trusted betas, and it elicited responses I've NEVER gotten from them before. And they all said the same things across the board without me prompting them.

Donald Maass says it isn't what the text actually says, but how it provokes things inside your reader that aren't on the page. I'd suggest letting other eyes see your emotional content as a thermometer to its effectiveness before deciding it needs to be cut.

Just saying this because I experimentally included a few things that I thought were totally grotesquely over the top, and it was those parts that worked like witchcraft on everybody who read it. I am so obsessed with Donald Maass now I'm going roll up that book and smoke it while editing my WIP.

I'm debating putting the book on my X-mas wish list.

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Do it!

Hi all! Sorry Newbie here!
Could someone please clarify what is the "third level emotion" concept for writing? I am not familiar with this term and can't find a straightforward answer about this on the internet.

Akudie said:

Hi all! Sorry Newbie here!
Could someone please clarify what is the "third level emotion" concept for writing? I am not familiar with this term and can't find a straightforward answer about this on the internet.

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Basically, third-level emotion is what the reader feels, not what the characters feel. I think Donald Maass invented the term, and he talks about it in his book The Emotional Craft of Fiction. But he also discusses it at Writer Unboxed.

BethS said:

Basically, third-level emotion is what the reader feels, not what the characters feel. I think Donald Maass invented the term, and he talks about it in his book The Emotional Craft of Fiction. But he also discusses it at Writer Unboxed.

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Thx! I just order his book

autumnjoy said:

I'm 3/4 of the way through drafting my mss, but the first half is 99% edited

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It might be polished to a greater degree than the second half. The fact that you're agonizing over this question is a tell that the editing road is not over. If it was 99% edited, you'd feel 100% confident that those emotional levels belonged (or at least have reasoned that you can never be satisfied with your own work, but your fifteen beta readers assure you it's fine). Not all editing is actual excising, but also the process of asking yourself if this does belong, if that has a place. Asking this question is a form of editing still taking place. However, I suppose if you are working off of a very well edited outline, I can see this process working.

But really. Stop worrying about your manuscript's word count and keep writing it. You cannot know its total wordage if you don't reach the end, or balance the whole ebb and flow of the thing without seeing how many words really are dedicated to which parts of which acts and whatever have you.

I see you've later on in the thread indicated you feel better about it now. I hope this has reduced the block you feel between you and completing the manuscript.

As for emotional monologues, well, I do those as often as my character feels like doing them. I'm a feelings kind of person, well acquainted with the inner ocean.

It may be a dumb cliche, but it's your first draft. Trust yourself, your instincts, your knowledge of narrative patterns to put this stuff in. If the emotional depth is good, you'll hook readers and they'll be happy for the longer story. Or you'll realize once it's had time to hang out in your upper brain, percolating, that this and that can be cut. That's why I don't edit as I go.

This mentioned book sounds interesting to me, I have not read it! Though I understand the concept being described.

Please stop editing so much, stop worrying, and just write the book.

Once you've finished writing the book you might well find that you need to change the structure of the book, or add or remove plot lines, and all that careful editing will have been for nothing.

Also, writing without worrying or revising is very freeing, and often results in better prose.

Once you've got your first draft finished, don't worry about the small things on your first editing pass. Check for structure, plot, continuation. Delete full scenes if they don't add anything significant to the book.

You might find that your word count is a lot closer to your goal once you've done this.