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Thread: Trump shrinks Utah monuments in historic move

  1. #1
    practical experience, FTW Davy The First's Avatar
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    Trump shrinks Utah monuments in historic move

    Thing is, all the damage Trump is doing, isn't coming from his 'ideology' per se. Because, he doesn't have one. I would assume he's taking bribes, (well hidden, of course), otherwise, why bother, with this and the rest of the dismantling of the environment? Again, he has no ideology. None. He eats big Macs, drinks coke, does coke, and bullies others. His thoughts don't wander beyond that.

    Although, not many presidents would risk the numerous backlashes, to sign off on this , and his other craziness. So, him gone would be better (and Pence, who is Donnie#2, but with some brains)

    Thankfully the clothing company Patagonia is gonna sue the govt to stop this madness. Could be an important rallying point. (One of many, probably)


    from CNN
    "Bears Ears National Monument, Utah (CNN)If only the rocks could talk.


    If only the sandstones could sing, imagine the stories they'd tell, of dinosaurs, mammoth hunters and the "ancient ones" known as the Anasazi.
    All roamed southern Utah over the eons, long before Native Americans struggled to hold their land against Mormon settlers, modern life and now, Donald Trump."


    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/04/po...eir/index.html
    Last edited by Davy The First; 12-05-2017 at 05:44 AM.

  2. #2
    Sophipygian AW Moderator Alessandra Kelley's Avatar
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    I do not assume the Occupier of the White House is necessarily accepting bribes for everything he does.

    Much of what That Man does seems to be grounded in nothing more than pride, smugness, and spite.

    If President Obama achieved it, why then he will try to unachieve it.

    There does not need to be more to it than that.

  3. #3
    practical experience, FTW Davy The First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alessandra Kelley View Post
    I do not assume the Occupier of the White House is necessarily accepting bribes for everything he does.

    Much of what That Man does seems to be grounded in nothing more than pride, smugness, and spite.

    If President Obama achieved it, why then he will try to unachieve it.

    There does not need to be more to it than that.
    I do think he is determined to undo all Obama did, for sure. But he does seem to be going that extra mile. Thing is, Trump feeds off 'love', and some of these actions are risky in receiving love - it will certainly reduce the love potential. He distanced himself from Trumpcare, when he thought the love was dropping.

    So, his only motivators I can see are, 1/Money, 2/to be adored by the 'plebs', and 3/ Vengeance.

    The undo Obama is more of a lazy car drive through the past, and of course, vengeance. But I reckon no 1& 2 take priority. Esp 1
    Last edited by Davy The First; 12-05-2017 at 06:15 AM.

  4. #4
    All about that action, boss. ElaineA's Avatar
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    Five Native American tribes (so far) are also planning a suit (not that Trump ever cared about a lawsuit):
    The five tribes — Hopi, Navajo Nation, Ute Mountain Ute Tribe, Pueblo of Zuni and Ute Indian — pushed that monument status and are drafting a lawsuit against Trump and his administration for splitting the designation into two areas that comprise less than 202,000 acres. In a brief visit to Utah on Monday, the president also trimmed Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument by nearly 1 million acres.
    I don't assume bribes, just ass-kissing by mining interests. And Ryan Zinke. Someone probably told him they'd name a strip mine after him, or let him put up a TRUMP MINING sign in neon letters.

  5. #5
    Beastly Fido Roxxsmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alessandra Kelley View Post
    I do not assume the Occupier of the White House is necessarily accepting bribes for everything he does.

    Much of what That Man does seems to be grounded in nothing more than pride, smugness, and spite.

    If President Obama achieved it, why then he will try to unachieve it.

    There does not need to be more to it than that.
    This is my take on it too. Though it's also red meat for his base, who hate anything they think of as the federal government telling locals what to do--even if it's on federally owned land. Much of this is symbolic for them as well.

    This will likely be tied up in court for a while, but it's still very sad.
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  6. #6
    practical experience, FTW Davy The First's Avatar
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    I thought mining companies only kissed with cash?

    Well, whatever his motivation, I suspect it's gonna backfire.

    I suppose Trump is a God send for the GOP, in the sense that he can push the true GOP agenda to the limits, and if it goes wrong - it was 'crazy Trump', not them. It would be ironic if Trump was in fact, the ultimate patsy. lol.

    as a footnote, before bed, the different between 'large political donors' and 'those who bribe politicians' is, for the most part, to my mind, a legal one at the moment. Hard to know if that legality makes much of a difference, outcome wise, in terms of skewed democracy, and bought government. (But again, I suspect Trump's motivation is more personal than policy, ie, bribery rather than political donations. He certainly aint in this game for the good of Humanity... ))
    Last edited by Davy The First; 12-05-2017 at 04:30 PM.

  7. #7
    practical experience, FTW Technophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alessandra Kelley View Post
    I do not assume the Occupier of the White House is necessarily accepting bribes for everything he does.

    Much of what That Man does seems to be grounded in nothing more than pride, smugness, and spite.

    If President Obama achieved it, why then he will try to unachieve it.

    There does not need to be more to it than that.
    Yes. Before he was even elected, he publicly vowed to undo the Obama presidency line by line.

    Honestly, things have gotten so bad that when I see a headline from The Onion, I still have to think about it before I realize it's a parody.

  8. #8
    Beastly Fido Roxxsmom's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Technophobe;10316718]Yes. Before he was even elected, he publicly vowed to undo the Obama presidency line by line.[/quote[

    When people elect a president who thinks white nationalists are "good people."

    Honestly, things have gotten so bad that when I see a headline from The Onion, I still have to think about it before I realize it's a parody.
    Yeah, the satirical publications must be having a lot of trouble coming up with ridiculous, over-the-top stories that make people laugh right now. The truth is too out there already.
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  9. #9
    Lost in the Fog rugcat's Avatar
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    Having spent much of my life in Utah, I am a very familiar with what's going on there.

    It's true that Donald Trump wants to undo everything Obama did. But the opening up of public lands to ranchers, mining and oil extraction has been a republican desire since forever. The small group of (white) residents in San Juan County ( over 50% of the population there is Native American, but they have never had political control) believe that they, and they alone should have the say in how those lands are used.

    As far back as the 1970s, the issue of Federal control of lands in the West was already a contentious issue (See Sagebrush Rebellion)

    San Juan County has about 14,000 residents. The 7000 or so white "settlers" believe it should be their call and their call alone to decide how control of public lands are to be assigned.

    The wishes and desires of the Native American population are irrelevant, as are the environmentalists and many other Utahns. Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke came to Utah to discuss Bear's Ears but mostly ignored Native American tribal groups – meeting only with the white county commissioners and oil interests. There was considerable organized opposition to Zinke's plans, but it had no effect whatsoever on his decision.

    Utahns in general are pretty much split on whether to support reducing Bears Ears, but no one expected such a drastic reduction. They are opposed by a 2 to 1 margin to shrinking Escalante, the other monument that was drastically downsized.

    This action was a foregone conclusion from the start, however, and although Trump was more than happy to stick his thumb in Obama's eye, he was more the enabler than the motivating force behind it.
    Last edited by rugcat; 12-05-2017 at 11:04 AM.
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  10. #10
    Barricade AW Moderator regdog's Avatar
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    I've noticed a deafening silence from those who screamed at the attack on our national heritage when the Jim Crow Era statues honoring Southern racist who fought to ensure the continuation of slavery were removed.

    Funny, I thought our National Parks were at the very core of our heritage.
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  11. #11
    practical experience, FTW Davy The First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
    Having spent much of my life in Utah, I am a very familiar with what's going on there.

    It's true that Donald Trump wants to undo everything Obama did. But the opening up of public lands to ranchers, mining and oil extraction has been a republican desire since forever. The small group of (white) residents in San Juan County ( over 50% of the population there is Native American, but they have never had political control) believe that they, and they alone should have the say in how those lands are used.

    As far back as the 1970s, the issue of Federal control of lands in the West was already a contentious issue (See Sagebrush Rebellion)

    San Juan County has about 14,000 residents. The 7000 or so white "settlers" believe it should be their call and their call alone to decide how control of public lands are to be assigned.

    The wishes and desires of the Native American population are irrelevant, as are the environmentalists and many other Utahns. Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke came to Utah to discuss Bear's Ears but mostly ignored Native American tribal groups – meeting only with the white county commissioners and oil interests. There was considerable organized opposition to Zinke's plans, but it had no effect whatsoever on his decision.

    Utahns in general are pretty much split on whether to support reducing Bears Ears, but no one expected such a drastic reduction. They are opposed by a 2 to 1 margin to shrinking Escalante, the other monument that was drastically downsized.

    This action was a foregone conclusion from the start, however, and although Trump was more than happy to stick his thumb in Obama's eye, he was more the enabler than the motivating force behind it.
    Great post.

    Yeah, the 'motivating force'. As every detective show has told us, there has to be Motive & Opportunity before you define a crime.
    The motivation here is not in the 'to allow locals go wabbit-hunting, uninhibited', category.

    And what works for the 'motivated' in Utah...
    Last edited by Davy The First; 12-05-2017 at 03:50 PM.

  12. #12
    Hoopy frood JimmyB27's Avatar
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    I completely misunderstood this thread. Thought we were talking about a compromise regarding the Confederate monuments. We won't remove them completely, but we will make them smaller...
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  13. #13
    Sophipygian AW Moderator Alessandra Kelley's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Roxxsmom;10316726]
    Quote Originally Posted by Technophobe View Post
    Yes. Before he was even elected, he publicly vowed to undo the Obama presidency line by line.[/quote[

    When people elect a president who thinks white nationalists are "good people."



    Yeah, the satirical publications must be having a lot of trouble coming up with ridiculous, over-the-top stories that make people laugh right now. The truth is too out there already.
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  14. #14
    practical experience, FTW Davy The First's Avatar
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    I think those wide open spaces and landscapes, like Bears Ears are the psychological fall back for a lot of Americans.
    Even for those who never moved outside of a square mile their whole lives, there's a sort of sense that that vastness is always there for them, or their offspring, someday. And I think that sense crosses political divides.
    When enough publicity is generated re the attack on this psychological space, Trump et co will lose, bigly.

    I'm from Ireland, and even I feel a kindred ship with those spaces, admittedly, from cowboy movies and the like...and their loss would be deeply felt.

  15. #15
    practical experience, FTW MaeZe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regdog View Post
    I've noticed a deafening silence from those who screamed at the attack on our national heritage when the Jim Crow Era statues honoring Southern racist who fought to ensure the continuation of slavery were removed.

    Funny, I thought our National Parks were at the very core of our heritage.
    Good point, I look forward to this thought passing through the Progressive echo chamber and maybe even reaching a news pundit or two.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyB27 View Post
    I completely misunderstood this thread. Thought we were talking about a compromise regarding the Confederate monuments. We won't remove them completely, but we will make them smaller...

  16. #16
    down the rabbit hole of research... CWatts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyB27 View Post
    I completely misunderstood this thread. Thought we were talking about a compromise regarding the Confederate monuments. We won't remove them completely, but we will make them smaller...
    ...down to the size of Participation Trophies?

  17. #17
    Heckuva good sport frimble3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWatts View Post
    ...down to the size of Participation Trophies?
    Well, my mother's Catholic friends used to have little images of the Virgin Mary and her Son on shelves, same thing with Confederate generals. Nice idols, sorry, statues of Confederate generals in a place of pride in the home.

  18. #18
    practical experience, FTW MaeZe's Avatar
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    I don't care if it
    Rains or freezes
    As long as I've got my
    Plastic Jesus
    Ridin' on the dashboard
    Of my car. --- Billy Idol


    Sorry, (no disrespect for Christians intended), it's running through my head now. Maybe there's a market for General Lee dashboard ornaments in the states that are tearing the statues down? They'd fit right in with the Confederate flags flying on car antennae.
    Last edited by MaeZe; 12-06-2017 at 02:10 AM.

  19. #19
    practical experience, FTW Davy The First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaeZe View Post
    I don't care if it
    Rains or freezes
    As long as I've got my
    Plastic Jesus
    Ridin' on the dashboard
    Of my car. --- Billy Idol


    Sorry, (no disrespect for Christians intended), it's running through my head now. Maybe there's a market for General Lee dashboard ornaments in the states that are tearing the statues down? They'd fit right in with the Confederate flags flying on car antennae.
    Billy Who?

    Now, Cool Hand Luke, that I remember...

  20. #20
    practical experience, FTW MaeZe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davy The First View Post
    Billy Who?

    Now, Cool Hand Luke, that I remember...
    I've never watched Cool Hand Luke, only saw bits of it here and there, mostly in ads for the movie.

    Idol was credited with authorship on the first search hit I got. The song's author is nothing I have committed to memory. But the song is hard to get out of your head.


    I do apologize for the thread hijack, the topic is an important one. I hope the legal challenge wins the day.
    Last edited by MaeZe; 12-06-2017 at 02:40 AM.

  21. #21
    practical experience, FTW Davy The First's Avatar
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  22. #22
    Heckuva good sport frimble3's Avatar
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    I think I started the derail, and I also apologise.

  23. #23
    And now, back to Plodding! Duncan J Macdonald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaeZe View Post
    I don't care if it
    Rains or freezes
    As long as I've got my
    Plastic Jesus
    Ridin' on the dashboard
    Of my car. --- Billy Idol


    Sorry, (no disrespect for Christians intended), it's running through my head now. Maybe there's a market for General Lee dashboard ornaments in the states that are tearing the statues down? They'd fit right in with the Confederate flags flying on car antennae.
    Quote Originally Posted by Davy The First View Post
    Billy Who?

    Now, Cool Hand Luke, that I remember...
    Quote Originally Posted by MaeZe View Post
    I've never watched Cool Hand Luke, only saw bits of it here and there, mostly in ads for the movie.

    Idol was credited with authorship on the first search hit I got. The song's author is nothing I have committed to memory. But the song is hard to get out of your head.


    I do apologize for the thread hijack, the topic is an important one. I hope the legal challenge wins the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Davy The First View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by frimble3 View Post
    I think I started the derail, and I also apologise.
    Derails1 are the beating heart of AW!

    Anyway, since I was singing 'Plastic Jesus' in my early teens when I was learning guitar, Billy Idol wasn't the originator, since I pre-date him. This Link helps a bit with the timeline -- first done as a radio spoof in 1962, then expanded in 1965. Since then, it has been a staple of the filking trade.




    1This derail brought to you by Sudsy! The Soap that Smiles! (TM) (R)
    Last edited by Duncan J Macdonald; 12-08-2017 at 05:23 PM. Reason: Added link to the original radio spot
    R/
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