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Thread: Big shoe falls

  1. #1
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    Big shoe falls

    I'm astonished that nobody has yet started a thread about the Michael Flynn guilty plea. So I'll open it. He's plead guilty to lying to the FBI about the Russian contacts, and apparently named two upper-level Trump transition team people who instructed him to meet with the Russians. The Trump Administration spin is that it's all on Flynn, and no Trump team involvement is indicated, which is plainly laughable and even the Fox News people are having trouble accepting that one. The big questions are Who are these two people, and Why did Flynn lie in the first place? He's obviously been given a good deal in exchange for his information, and we ain't anywhere near through with this.

    caw
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    Barricade AW Moderator regdog's Avatar
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  3. #3
    Oh, my. This is getting good.

  4. #4
    Delerium ex Ennui Xelebes's Avatar
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  5. #5
    People are not wearing enough hats JJ Litke's Avatar
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    One of the news stations I saw earlier was saying Kushner is implicated in the court filings.
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    Scribe of the girls in the basement Marissa D's Avatar
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    Kushner is mentioned in the WaPo headlining article as being implicated.

    ETA: My fingers are soooo crossed that the other "very senior member of the Presidential Transition team" is Pence...
    Last edited by Marissa D; 12-02-2017 at 03:11 AM.

  7. #7
    Yum!

  8. #8
    It's just a jump to the left... SWest's Avatar
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    That's right: lock him up. Lock 'em all up.

    Couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch of losers.

    Too bad they're still enjoying their chance to wreck so much in the meantime.

  9. #9
    Are you one, Herbert? Prozyan's Avatar
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    Nothing to get excited about.

    At worst, it's a break from long standing tradition for the incoming administration to engage a foreign nation while the current administration is still in power. It will take quite stretch to make this anything illegal.

    In terms of something that will bring down the Trump administration.....this ain't it.
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  10. #10
    It's just a jump to the left... SWest's Avatar
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    It is a good clean punch into the so-called unbreakable wall surrounding the president. (ABCNews is reporting that Kushner instructed Flynn to lie - I don't see Kushner simply being fine with going away to prison for a good long time either).

    Trump surrounded himself with bullies - and bullies, when the chips are down, are cowards. Mueller's got plenty to work with from here.

    This Flynn business is all wrapped up with Comey's firing, which, recall, is an area of great interest for the Mueller team.

  11. #11
    reading all the things Anna Iguana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozyan View Post
    Nothing to get excited about.

    At worst, it's a break from long standing tradition for the incoming administration to engage a foreign nation while the current administration is still in power. It will take quite stretch to make this anything illegal.
    At minimum, it's a violation of the Logan Act, and it is illegal. Plus, obstructing justice by lying to the FBI and Congress.
    Last edited by Anna Iguana; 12-02-2017 at 04:09 AM.

  12. #12
    Just Another Lazy Perfectionist Brightdreamer's Avatar
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    It's probably paranoid of me to hope that they have someone keeping a close eye on him now that he's rolling... if this thing goes as deep and dark as it looks to, I'm not sure Those Yet To Be Named would hesitate to silence a little singing birdie.
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  13. #13
    down the rabbit hole of research... CWatts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brightdreamer View Post
    It's probably paranoid of me to hope that they have someone keeping a close eye on him now that he's rolling... if this thing goes as deep and dark as it looks to, I'm not sure Those Yet To Be Named would hesitate to silence a little singing birdie.
    I thought it odd that Flynn left court on effectively house arrest and immediately went to his son's house. Mueller is smart so that could be a press stunt before Flynn is shunted off to undisclosed locations.

    Somehow I doubt that, even facing long prison sentences, any of these narcissistic cowards will drink a Croatian Cocktail. ETA: Reference to this war criminal's suicide by poison. https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017...obodan-praljak
    Last edited by CWatts; 12-02-2017 at 07:10 PM.

  14. #14
    practical experience, FTW MaeZe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozyan View Post
    Nothing to get excited about.

    At worst, it's a break from long standing tradition for the incoming administration to engage a foreign nation while the current administration is still in power. It will take quite stretch to make this anything illegal.

    In terms of something that will bring down the Trump administration.....this ain't it.
    I do believe your conclusion is a tad premature.


  15. #15
    All about that action, boss. ElaineA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozyan View Post
    Nothing to get excited about.

    At worst, it's a break from long standing tradition for the incoming administration to engage a foreign nation while the current administration is still in power. It will take quite stretch to make this anything illegal.

    In terms of something that will bring down the Trump administration.....this ain't it.
    The only part of this post I agree with is that last line. The fact remains, unless they get a felony conviction on Trump, Ryan and crew aren't going to give him the boot.

    But it IS more than simply talking in a transition capacity. There's evidence of Flynn working with Turkey, there's the Russian thing, there's the lie to the FBI, there's Page and Papadopoulos, there's the connection to Kushner and the attempt to set up secret communications through the Russian consulate...It's a dot-to-dot.

    Mike Pence out and out lied, too.

    I don't consider Flynn a "big shoe." He's a kid-sized shoe. First of all there's Kushy's size 12s. If it's true he is deeply woven into this, he's going to be faced with the choice of going to jail and losing his company for his part in it, taking the fall (or being the last domino, depending on facts), or, if he's NOT the last domino, he flips, points the finger, faces the likelihood of losing his wife and all the "friends" he's made since becoming the SiL of the Prez, thus imperiling the financing on his NYC building and ruining him financially. Talk about a Hobson's choice he might be facing.

    Then there's Ivanka's stiletto-heeled shoe. She's definitely looking at the choice between her husband and her dad. Shakespearean ain't the half of it. *adjusts binoculars for that spectacular*

    I think it's the first time in my adult life I haven't wanted to squawk about all the shoes being left around.

  16. #16
    Lost in the Fog rugcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozyan View Post
    Nothing to get excited about.

    At worst, it's a break from long standing tradition for the incoming administration to engage a foreign nation while the current administration is still in power. It will take quite stretch to make this anything illegal.

    In terms of something that will bring down the Trump administration.....this ain't it.
    Well, the Republican controlled Congress will not get rid of Trump no matter what information is brought forth including, imo, actions that could be deemed a felony. They'd have to impeach him first, and they're just not going to do that, no matter what.

    Van Jones on CNN put it very simply for those confused about the implications of Michael Flynn's plea deal, though.

    "When one of your main homies turns snitch, a lot of people are going to jail.
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  17. #17
    Are you one, Herbert? Prozyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna Iguana View Post
    At minimum, it's a violation of the Logan Act, and it is illegal. Plus, obstructing justice by lying to the FBI and Congress.
    The Logan Act is a non starter. It would be nigh impossible to make the argument the incoming NSA is an "unauthorized citizen".

    I'm sorry, this is not the big stick that kills the Trump administration.
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  18. #18
    Are you one, Herbert? Prozyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugcat View Post

    Van Jones on CNN put it very simply for those confused about the implications of Michael Flynn's plea deal, though.

    "When one of your main homies turns snitch, a lot of people are going to jail.
    I would be willing to bet the only jail time that arises will be short sentences for perjury.
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  19. #19
    Special Snowflake? No. Hailstone RedRajah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWatts View Post
    I thought it odd that Flynn left court on effectively house arrest and immediately went to his son's house. Mueller is smart so that could be a press stunt before Flynn is shunted off to undisclosed locations.

    Somehow I doubt that, even facing long prison sentences, any of these narcissistic cowards will drink a Croatian Cocktail.

    On the other hand, the Orange Troll Doll might be tempted to follow Putin's way in silencing threats by "accidentally" throwing Flynn out a 10 story building...

  20. #20
    Lost in the Fog rugcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozyan View Post
    I would be willing to bet the only jail time that arises will be short sentences for perjury.
    For Mike Flynn, who is cooperating? Absolutely. He might even get no jail time at all.

    But Bob Mueller, like any competent prosecutor, would not have offered such a sweet plea deal unless he gets something in return. He knows what Mike Flynn has to offer, information that will implicate bigger fish. That's how law enforcement prosecutions work, on every level.

    Simply lying to the FBI is a felony that can get you five years in prison. That's not very likely, but even a few months would be quite a big deal if it were say, Jared Kushner.

    I agree, none of this will bring down the Trump administration. And none of it no matter how sleazy and/or criminal, will shake Trumps support in the slightest. But it's going to be fun to watch, if nothing else. The thought of Jared Kushner following in the footsteps of his old man with a stretch in the gray bar hotel puts a smile on my face.
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  21. #21
    practical experience, FTW MaeZe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozyan View Post
    The Logan Act is a non starter. It would be nigh impossible to make the argument the incoming NSA is an "unauthorized citizen".

    I'm sorry, this is not the big stick that kills the Trump administration.
    You are looking at one half of the equation: what the Trump admin had to offer Putin.

    What do you think Trump got in return?

  22. #22
    Life is good Gregg's Avatar
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    ABC is backing off its earlier report and now saying all this happened after the election. If true, it's probably no big deal.
    But, then, what did Flynn lie to the FBI about?
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  23. #23
    practical experience, FTW MaeZe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregg View Post
    ABC is backing off its earlier report and now saying all this happened after the election. If true, it's probably no big deal.
    But, then, what did Flynn lie to the FBI about?
    The charging documents specifically state that the lying was obstruction of the investigation.

    From the NYT:
    Mr. Flynn’s plea deal could deeply undercut the claims made in January by Mr. Trump and his aides that they were misled by Mr. Flynn about his discussion with Russians regarding sanctions imposed on Moscow by the Obama administration over the election interference. In fact, the documents say multiple members of the team coordinated the specifics of Mr. Flynn’s outreach to Russia and knew that the conversations were about sanctions.

    Mr. Flynn’s agreement also provided new context for Mr. Trump’s efforts to get F.B.I. officials to back off their investigation of Mr. Flynn.
    Remember, part of the investigation is into Trump's obstruction of justice especially when he fired Comey. The other part is Trump conspiring with the Russians during the election. So the issue here isn't just the Logan Act violations, there's Donnie Jr and Kushner meeting with the Russian contingent during the campaign.

    Flynn was deeply involved in the campaign while on the payroll of a foreign government. I think a few people are sidetracked by the charges Flynn pleaded guilty to and might be forgetting the bigger picture.

  24. #24
    Are you one, Herbert? Prozyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregg View Post
    ABC is backing off its earlier report and now saying all this happened after the election. If true, it's probably no big deal.
    But, then, what did Flynn lie to the FBI about?
    Meeting with the Russian ambassador in December of 2016.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregg View Post
    But, then, what did Flynn lie to the FBI about?
    That, indeed, is the current big question. If it was innocuous, why lie about it? And Mueller already has what Flynn knows; he wouldn't have made a deal otherwise.

    caw

    caw
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