Can we split hairs? The differences between dark fantasy and grimdark

Roxxsmom

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I would, without igniting the gender debate again, disagree with the assertion that grimdark novels are solely mechanistic in their approach to violence, or that a focus on the emotional context in which violence occurs, makes it less horrifying. I'd say the opposite.

And unlike Harlequin, with whom I otherwise agreed, I like some of Abercrombie's books because I thought his writing was full of voice and because the violence had an emotional context that made it feel more real to me. I didn't find the descriptions of battles or torture dry and mechanistic at all. I've no idea how accurate or realistic they would be from the viewpoint of someone who has been through these things, but they felt real enough to me because of the viewpoint character's investment in them. It wasn't just about the splatter, though I thought some of the latter was beside the point and more than was needed to get the point across. It's not the blood and guts that makes something horrifying to me, it's the effect they have on the characters.

Actually, one of the more horrifying torture scenes I remember in a novel was in one of the first Elric stories I read where he's at a banquet where someone is being tortured as dinner time entertainment, and Elric is bored. The fact that someone could be bored with something so awful as watching a man be fed his own liver was rather troubling.

One of the most disturbing rape scenes I ever read was of a woman raping a young man (in Cherryh's Cyteen). The long-term effects on his psyche (PTSD) was handled well, imo, as was the fact that he couldn't tell anyone, because this woman was powerful and had a very special, protected status in her society (actually pretty spot on with regards to all the sex crimes coming out now). I don't actually recall how graphic the sex part of the scene was, but it was the emotional impact that stays with me as a reader.
 
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Aggy B.

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Yeah. I've been working my way through The Lies of Locke Lamora. Which, in general, I like. But there's a scene where a dude is tortured and killed (by having a bunch of broken glass methodically shoved into his face) and it wasn't just that it was violent, but also that the main character just stands there like "Yup, my boss is pretty freaked out." (And it's not that he's not upset, but he's not very upset. And he's a character who, up until that point, had a kind of Robin Hood vibe. So, I had to stop reading for a while because it was just a little too much.)
 

mpack

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I would, without igniting the gender debate again, disagree with the assertion that grimdark novels are solely mechanistic in their approach to violence, or that a focus on the emotional context in which violence occurs, makes it less horrifying. I'd say the opposite.

I think a certain grittiness to the depiction of violence is one of the nebulous characteristics identified with grimdark. This is one of the aspects where grimdark deviates from high fantasy with darker themes. Gritty depictions of violence -- and the consequences of violence -- when stirred in with a cynical, fatalistic theme results (sometimes, sort of) in grimdark. The mechanics, the way the story is shown, loop back to the themes.

It isn't enough for the character to be tortured, but the torture alters the character in an undeniable way. They're maimed or blind, and importantly they have lasting psychic scars as well. The torture warps their mind as it warps their body. They confront existential futility born out of their own helplessness to change who they became. This inverts the typical path of the hero's journey where the protagonist overcomes the worst of scenarios in spite of an overwhelming conflict stacked against.

Of course, I've already admitted there's a lot of squishiness to the definition, so I'm not sure how far my formulation holds up. By my argument, Robin Hobb certainly fits grimdark, for example, but I've seen few lists or articles that include her. On the other, I don't think my definitions include Scott Lynch, but most list do include Lies of Locke Lamora, which leaves me feeling as if I really don't quite understand the term at all. (In disclosure, I'm a fan of Hobb and Lynch both. Differentiating their sub-sub-genre isn't meant as disparaging in the slightest.)
 
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Kjbartolotta

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hahaha, oh dear, i think my point this morning was Anna Spark Stevens writes awesome grimdark with sick violence and that's great and I'ma look at the supermoon.
 

Roxxsmom

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I've noticed a lot of crossover reading between fans of writers like Abercrombie and Lawrence and Robin Hobb. She's the only female author many of the readers on a nearly all male and all British fantasy forum I won't name seemed to like, or even name (in some cases). I don't know why British fantasy fans and publishing seem to be more male-biased right now (in spite of their having been some really good female British authors over the years). Maybe it's just a random shift in market demographics, or something.

Regardless, Hobb doesn't get included on lists of grimdark authors that I've ever seen. She's more likely to be listed as high fantasy or as epic fantasy.

It's probably because she goes light on the swearing, fades sex scenes to black, doesn't get super graphic with regards to splatter and gore, and some of her romantic relationships do end happily (another thing in grimdark--love never prevails, and sex scenes often emphasize the smelly, sticky, messy aspects).

But no one can say the themes she embraces aren't dark or that her characters aren't tortured and altered by their negative experiences and often fail to completely rise above them.

However, one thing that struck me about Abercrombie that was different from much of the other dark-themed fantasy I've read is that his characters really are pretty static. Even when it appears that they're on arcs--Jezal becoming less selfish, Glokta maybe gaining some introspection, and Logain overcoming his beserker tendencies, in the end they're the same people they were at the beginning. This is different from what one sees in Hobb's work.

I can't speak for Lynch, because I couldn't get through the first book. It wasn't the world or story, but the narrative style (too distant and impersonal) that made it hard for me.

I disagree about some books that end up listed as grimdark. Django Wexler's? I'd call it gunpowder fantasy, and it has dark parts and twists that don't follow the expected arcs, but I wouldn't call it grimdark.

Lawrence's is probably the grimmest and darkest in some ways. In the Prince of Thorns books, his protagonist is a murderous little psychopath. It's not terribly realistic, though. Yes, child soldiers can be absolutely brutal, but they don't end up leading the adults and pursuing their own agenda. They are being used and weaponized by the psychotic murderous adults who are really in charge.

Mind you, I couldn't finish that book because it was too depressing and rapey, and the non personhood of the victims was too much for me. At least in Abercrombie, the victims had arcs and they often came back to affect the protagonists. However, I may be missing something since I didn't finish it or read the rest of the trilogy.
 
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Harlequin

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If you look at literature map (http://www.literature-map.com/robin+hobb.html) for robin hobb, you will find she floats among male fantasy.

I think it is down to marketing. In general writers for sff are often genre divided, in that if you read a guy, any guy, you are more likely to read other guys and not encounter the women (perhaps vice versa).

I too am at a loss for what is allowed as grim dark. Medieval euro fantasy is never specified for example, but I do get the strong sense that's a core expectation. Which is silly really since the original grimdark, 40k, is in fact SciFi (though I guess warhammer bog standard fantasy, so).

But that makes me think I can't classify Who Fears Death as grim dark, even though it is grim, and dark. However, it would almost certainly be chalked up as post apoc, or literary speculative fiction.