Head Trauma, Amnesia, Seizures, Etc.

Orianna2000 · Nov 21, 2017

This is kind of complicated. I've done some research into retrograde amnesia, but I haven't found exactly what I need. It's possible that's because it doesn't exist. . . .

So. Modern day, London. Character (late 30s) is thrown from a two-story building and receives a skull fracture and a couple of broken bones. He's rushed into surgery to stop the brain bleeding and he's in a coma for a couple of days. He wakes up thinking it's 4-5 years earlier. He recognizes old friends and family, but not anyone he's met recently. So far, so good, right?

Question #1. In the UK, London specifically, how long would someone with retrograde amnesia be kept in the hospital? Just until his head wound heals? Would he be put in a care facility or group home setting for observation? Or would they just send him home?

Question #2. He's not a doctor, but he is a genius. Is it feasible that his intellect remains intact after the head trauma? This seems to be okay, based on what I've read, but I'd like to be sure.

Here's where my plot starts getting iffy. In those missing four years, this guy basically went from being a rude, inconsiderate, arrogant SOB to someone who actually cares about other human beings. Lots of character development, which all vanishes when he forgets. So there's some conflict with friends who no longer put up with his crap. Eventually, he decides he needs to fix his brain.

Based on the premise that certain neurons in his brain that connect to memories are either misfiring or damaged, he decides electroshock therapy is his best bet. His doctor friend strongly advises against this treatment, especially since it's not proven to help amnesia (as far as I can tell), but he, being an arrogant know-it-all, goes ahead and does it, on his own, sneaking into the hospital. Afterwards, he stumbles around in a daze, finds his friend, and then has a major seizure.

Question #3. Would electroshock therapy trigger seizures? If so, would seizures be a permanent side-effect? Or just a one-time thing?

Question #4. Is it possible that the electroshock treatment actually does cure his amnesia, at least in part? If so, could it be psychosomatic, like a placebo? And if it does work, would it be an all-at-once recovery, or more like the memories slowly trickle back, over time?

Question #5. I know the "bump-on-the-head cure" is cliched and totally inaccurate. Is there anything that might actually work? Even accidental or partial? Like, kissing his fiancee, someone he doesn't remember, and having flashbacks to their time together? Or even spontaneous recovery for no apparent reason?

That's all for now . . . thanks in advance!

Chris P · Nov 21, 2017

I don't know enough to answer your questions specifically, but as a reader I would find it hard to believe that loss of memory would change someone's personality or intellect unless much more brain damage is going on. I would think it cheap if he went back to being an SOB because he lost the memory of his growth. I would also find it hard tk believe that shock therapy would restore his memories. I also don't see how someone could sneak into a hospital and give himself shock treatment.

As for the last question, I was hit by a car on my bike when I was 12. I spent probably 20 minutes in a confused state (I thought I was dreaming and told the paramedics to leave me alone and that I'd wake up soon). I came back to reality in the ambulance, but had no memory of the previous 24 hr. Over the rest of that day, the memories came back in sequential order, to where I remembered going to bed the night before, then a few hours later remembered waking up that morning, then by the end of the day I remembered everything, including the look on the driver's face just before I sailed through the air and took a header on the pavement. I only have dream-like memories of the time I was confused; those still feel like a half remembered dream. It's different for everyone, of course, as I know people who never had the memories return. Perhaps there's a difference between amnesia due to a failure of recording (never come back) and a failure of recall (momories recorded but not retrievable).

Siri Kirpal · Nov 21, 2017

Chris P said:
I don't know enough to answer your questions specifically, but as a reader I would find it hard to believe that loss of memory would change someone's personality or intellect unless much more brain damage is going on. I would think it cheap if he went back to being an SOB because he lost the memory of his growth. I would also find it hard tk believe that shock therapy would restore his memories. I also don't see how someone could sneak into a hospital and give himself shock treatment.

Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Agreeing with Chris on this. The amnesia makes sense. I can just barely believe the guy might regress to an earlier mode of personality. But the rest seems highly unlikely.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

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lonestarlibrarian · Nov 21, 2017

I used to work in a museum. I was changing out a display in one of those old-fashioned cases that has a door made of wood and glass. Sort of like this, but it was hinged at the top, so there wasn't really a way to hold it open while you worked in it. You could stand in it with it pressing against your back, but that was really uncomfy, and you couldn't go back and forth to get various things, or step back and see the spacing from the proper distance. So I propped it up on the edge of a nearby case so I could have extra freedom to work-- but it didn't really occur to me how precariously balanced it was. I pushed against the back of the case to make sure my velcro had caught securely-- and that was enough to dislodge the door from where I had propped it. It smashed me on the back of the head, and I had to sit down for several minutes. In hindsight, I have no doubt I had a concussion-- but I didn't really want to deal with the fuss of getting it looked at, etc.

The first thing I realized was that my mind was quiet. Up until that point, I always had a good two to five trains of independent thought all running simultaneously/concurrently. And for the first time in my life, I actually had... nothing... going on in my head. I had to go out of my way to think a thought, rather than just having this constant stream of activity running that I'd always had.

That was in 2000. My thinking still hasn't gone back to the way it was.

Not that I was a genius before, and I'm dumb now. But I definitely lost a lot of sharpness in that one moment, and it never came back. And I still have to actively generate a thought, rather than having a constant flow of thoughts running through my head. But I remember one of my first thoughts was, "Wow. So this is what it feels like to not be thinking about anything at all. I wonder how many people this is normal for, having to actually try to think about something."

As far as the personality stuff goes, I can't say specifically, but I have noticed that in some of the elderly people I've been around, sometimes seizures make them more like themselves, if that makes sense? ie, someone who is Not a Nice Person at heart has learned, by being around people, that certain things are Not Socially Acceptable. And so they give themselves a Socially Acceptable veneer, but ultimately, those instincts/preferences/priorities are still there. And having a seizure can sometimes get rid of the veneer so that they're not trying to be Socially Acceptable, and they're acting like who they were all this time. (For example, you might tell Person A about what Person B said or did, and Person A might say, "You know, they were just like this when we were kids... I remember this one time...")

It's possible that a seizure/brain injury/tumor might rewire someone's personality. There was this YouTube video about a cyst stroke tumor and its effects on a boy's behavior that came across my FB feed the other day.

MaeZe · Nov 21, 2017

Don't know about the UK but in the US hospitals only keep you until you had recovered enough physically to be discharged. If you could not care for yourself you would go to a transitional care facility of which there are some that are a unit in the hospital and some that are a unit in a nursing home.

I have seen ECT administered and it's highly improbable one could administer it to oneself.

Also, it causes amnesia, so it wouldn't cure it.

Generally people with brain damage can continue to improve over many months, maybe even a year. So doing something to make the brain suddenly or rapidly recover doesn't make sense. Rather, the patient would probably go to rehab or have outpatient therapy.

AwP_writer · Nov 21, 2017

There was a guy (Phineas P. Gage) who had a metal rod shoot through his head. He survived mostly fine, but his personality changed and he became a jerk. As far as I know, that has no relation to his former personality, it wasn't a regression, just a completely random change. I hope you find this useful.

Chris P · Nov 21, 2017

AwP_writer said:
There was a guy (Phineas P. Gage) who had a metal rod shoot through his head. He survived mostly fine, but his personality changed and he became a jerk. As far as I know, that has no relation to his former personality, it wasn't a regression, just a completely random change. I hope you find this useful.

When we studied this case in school, we were told it severed the impulsive part of his brain from the inhibitions center. He no longer had any ability to control how he reacted to whatever thoight popped into his head. We were told alcohol does the same thing, which is why at low doses it acts as a stimulant and why people act impulsively while under the influence. I don't know how.these theories have stood up to modern science, but that was the explanation.

LJD · Nov 21, 2017

Orianna2000 said:
Question #3. Would electroshock therapy trigger seizures? If so, would seizures be a permanent side-effect? Or just a one-time thing?

Question #4. Is it possible that the electroshock treatment actually does cure his amnesia, at least in part? If so, could it be psychosomatic, like a placebo? And if it does work, would it be an all-at-once recovery, or more like the memories slowly trickle back, over time?

I have no medical background, so apologies if I screw up any terminology, but I've had ECT (electroshock) numerous times (30-50-ish?) as treatment for depression.

A few things:

1) When you have ECT, you are given general anesthesia and a muscle relaxant. The purpose of ECT is to induce a seizure, but you do not physically shake because you are paralyzed due to the muscle relaxant. In the past, electroshock has been more...barbaric. But this is how it was done for me (a few years ago), and I believe it is standard.

2) ECT has cognitive side effects, and memory loss is very common. I can remember very little from a few months before I started ECT to a few months after, though it didn't cause me to lose any old memories. Thus, ECT as a treatment for amnesia strikes me as rather...odd.

Orianna2000 · Nov 24, 2017

I knew I was on shaky ground with this whole idea, so I'm just trying to see what might work, and what needs to be rethought, and what new possibilities might pop up.

I read about the guy with the rod in his head, and I've also read about several people with severe amnesia. One was completely unable to retain new memories, sort of like in the movie 50 First Dates. Upon his death, he donated his brain to science and they learned a great deal about amnesia and brain damage from it. Basically, all their assumptions about how amnesia worked were totally wrong!

So if electroshock therapy causes amnesia, is there an opposite treatment that might possibly fix amnesia? I dunno, what's the opposite of electricity? (I'm thinking opposite like, acidic/alkaline or fire/water, etc. Probably doesn't exist. I'm grasping at straws.) It can be top secret research, or experimental. Heck, this guy is crazy enough, he'd probably invent a treatment himself.

What about drugs? I know there are medications that can cause amnesia, like Versed. I'm pretty sure I read that there isn't anything that can treat amnesia, but that doesn't make sense to me. If they can cause it, why can't they reverse it? (There's probably some complex science thing that explains this.)

I have some weird amnesia issues, myself. Sometimes I wake up with no idea who I am, where I am, or anything. If my husband is next to me in bed, I know that he's important to me, that I love him, but I don't know who he is. My memory usually returns within a minute or two. (And it's not caused by alcohol or drugs.) I also have a very spotty memory of my childhood, due to recurring trauma. Occasionally, something will pop loose, something I hadn't thought of in 25-30 years. Which tells me that the memories are still there, they're intact, it's just that access to them is limited. But if I can sometimes remember, there's got to be something that causes those neurons to reconnect, which means there should be a way of reversing amnesia. I just don't have the faintest idea what that could be.

MDSchafer · Nov 24, 2017

Orianna2000 said:
So if electroshock therapy causes amnesia, is there an opposite treatment that might possibly fix amnesia? I dunno, what's the opposite of electricity? (I'm thinking opposite like, acidic/alkaline or fire/water, etc. Probably doesn't exist. I'm grasping at straws.) It can be top secret research, or experimental. Heck, this guy is crazy enough, he'd probably invent a treatment himself.

What about drugs? I know there are medications that can cause amnesia, like Versed. I'm pretty sure I read that there isn't anything that can treat amnesia, but that doesn't make sense to me. If they can cause it, why can't they reverse it? (There's probably some complex science thing that explains this.)

I have some weird amnesia issues, myself. Sometimes I wake up with no idea who I am, where I am, or anything. If my husband is next to me in bed, I know that he's important to me, that I love him, but I don't know who he is. My memory usually returns within a minute or two. (And it's not caused by alcohol or drugs.) I also have a very spotty memory of my childhood, due to recurring trauma. Occasionally, something will pop loose, something I hadn't thought of in 25-30 years. Which tells me that the memories are still there, they're intact, it's just that access to them is limited. But if I can sometimes remember, there's got to be something that causes those neurons to reconnect, which means there should be a way of reversing amnesia. I just don't have the faintest idea what that could be.

Nope, there is no way to reverse biological amnesia. If there's a psychological cause, maybe?

Orianna2000 said:
What about drugs? I know there are medications that can cause amnesia, like Versed. I'm pretty sure I read that there isn't anything that can treat amnesia, but that doesn't make sense to me. If they can cause it, why can't they reverse it? (There's probably some complex science thing that explains this.)

Versed does technically cause amnesia, but probably not in the way you think. It will give the person some retrograde and anterograde amnesia but it's in a pretty limited time frame around administration. Why? It has to do with how it effects the different centers of your brain.

As to why we can't reverse amnesia, I don't fully understand the science, but the answer is probably because we don't need to, and there is a lot we don't know a lot about the brain. My first job was at world class brain injury center, and so this something I've got a good bit of professional experience with. I don't think we've tried to reverse amnesia because there's not a lot of value in it, and it would be prohibitively expensive.

Where it would be useful is in trauma's like car accidents or shootings so that the patient could understand what happened. But, that's caused by trauma, and everything we know about brain injuries is that a brain injury stops the person from being able to form short term memories, so there's nothing to be done.

Orianna2000 said:
I have some weird amnesia issues, myself. Sometimes I wake up with no idea who I am, where I am, or anything. If my husband is next to me in bed, I know that he's important to me, that I love him, but I don't know who he is. My memory usually returns within a minute or two. (And it's not caused by alcohol or drugs.) I also have a very spotty memory of my childhood, due to recurring trauma. Occasionally, something will pop loose, something I hadn't thought of in 25-30 years. Which tells me that the memories are still there, they're intact, it's just that access to them is limited. But if I can sometimes remember, there's got to be something that causes those neurons to reconnect, which means there should be a way of reversing amnesia. I just don't have the faintest idea what that could be.

You may have PTSD. You might benefit from seeing a therapist who specializes in Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

LJD · Nov 24, 2017

In addition to ECT, I also received an experimental treatment called MST (magnetic seizure therapy). It was similar in that you were given general anesthesia and a muscle relaxant and a seizure was induced. But the seizure is induced with magnetic pulses instead, and the advantage is that it does not cause memory loss. You can read about it here.

I don't think this will help you, because it is not used as a treatment for amnesia. But it's something similar to ECT without the memory problems. So using it to treat amnesia would seem...slightly less ridiculous, I guess.

I would probably just do some kind of hand-waving description of an experimental treatment, because I don't think what you want exists.

Orianna2000 · Nov 28, 2017

Actually, the character is a bit of a drama queen, so I was thinking if he couldn't sneak into the hospital to do electroshock therapy, he would probably call the paramedics and then deliberately electrocute himself. That would be completely in-character for him. Totally stupid, but very in-character. (Wait, didn't House do something like that, once? I vaguely recall that he did surgery on himself in a bathtub.)

MDSchafer, regarding Versed, I've had it a couple of times, once for a stomach scoping and once for oral surgery. Both times, I remember being injected, and then a split second of woozy, utter bliss, before everything went black. Next thing I knew, I was waking up. When I had my gallbladder removed, however, they told me they were giving me Versed shortly before they took me into the OR, and I waited and waited, but never experienced the bliss, or the dizziness, or the blacking out. I was aware of everything that happened as they wheeled me into the OR. I chatted with the nurse, they got me settled, and then they put the anesthesia mask on me, and only then did I black out. So I'm not sure if they forgot to give me the Versed or what.

Also, yes, I do have PTSD.

MaeZe · Nov 28, 2017

Orianna2000 said:
Actually, the character is a bit of a drama queen, so I was thinking if he couldn't sneak into the hospital to do electroshock therapy, he would probably call the paramedics and then deliberately electrocute himself. That would be completely in-character for him. Totally stupid, but very in-character. (Wait, didn't House do something like that, once? I vaguely recall that he did surgery on himself in a bathtub.)

MDSchafer, regarding Versed, I've had it a couple of times, once for a stomach scoping and once for oral surgery. Both times, I remember being injected, and then a split second of woozy, utter bliss, before everything went black. Next thing I knew, I was waking up. When I had my gallbladder removed, however, they told me they were giving me Versed shortly before they took me into the OR, and I waited and waited, but never experienced the bliss, or the dizziness, or the blacking out. I was aware of everything that happened as they wheeled me into the OR. I chatted with the nurse, they got me settled, and then they put the anesthesia mask on me, and only then did I black out. So I'm not sure if they forgot to give me the Versed or what.

Also, yes, I do have PTSD.

Usually they give a patient versed and a very short time later administer the anesthesia. It's not usually the versed alone that puts a patient out.

As for the ECT, it's simply not practical a patient could self administer it. And nowadays anesthesia is administered as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Ypt-vKI2U

neandermagnon · Nov 28, 2017

Orianna2000 said:
This is kind of complicated. I've done some research into retrograde amnesia, but I haven't found exactly what I need. It's possible that's because it doesn't exist. . . .

So. Modern day, London. Character (late 30s) is thrown from a two-story building and receives a skull fracture and a couple of broken bones. He's rushed into surgery to stop the brain bleeding and he's in a coma for a couple of days. He wakes up thinking it's 4-5 years earlier. He recognizes old friends and family, but not anyone he's met recently. So far, so good, right?

Question #1. In the UK, London specifically, how long would someone with retrograde amnesia be kept in the hospital? Just until his head wound heals? Would he be put in a care facility or group home setting for observation? Or would they just send him home?

Back in the day there was a hospital for neuro disability that was next to my university (Roehampton, formerly part of Surrey uni) and the neurobiology lecturer at the uni worked at the same hospital. If the brain damage results in disability, that's where they may go. AFAIK they have long term patients there, but I don't know a lot about it including whether it's NHS or not. Someone with a neurological disability (temporary or permanent) would only be released from an NHS hospital if they have someone to care for them. They may be transferred to a care home if they don't (though there's a lot of talk among doctors and politicians about the fact that large numbers of elderly people are being cared for in hospital due to a lack of places in care homes - this may not affect younger people with disabilities so much but I know of occasional cases of fairly young people (40s-50s) living in old people's homes because no-one else can provide the care they need. This includes people with conditions such as Down's Syndrome where they may have ageing related problems at a younger age.

There are different kinds of amnesia but ages ago I knew someone who had retrograde amnesia which was cured through brain surgery. Basically, an accident caused a bleed to the brain, which also resulted in one part of his brain getting insufficient blood flow. The surgery corrected this and when the blood was flowing properly in his brain, his memories came back. If you want your character to suddenly get his memories back, this would be a plausible way. Bear in mind that memory loss caused by physical damage/changes in the brain is radically different to memory loss caused by psychological trauma. In the latter, the memories are there, just stored in a different way and the diagnosis would be PTSD. This is not the result of damage and should probably be considered as a normal way that brains handle highly traumatic events. Elephants and chimpanzees get PTSD and probably numerous other animals do so it's not unique to humans.

In major memory/function loss as a result of head injury, the parts of the brain are damaged and the memories in many cases are actually destroyed. The guy I knew was a bit different as the part of his brain with his memories wasn't damaged, it was just getting insufficient blood. Not sure how that works on a practical level because brain cells die within about 13 mins of having no blood at all, so I'm assuming there must have been some blood getting to them. Maybe a brain surgeon or neurologist could comment further.

There's also another kind of amnesia associated with head injuries that nearly always happens but isn't caused by damage to the neurons. This is where people don't have much or any memory of the accident and last few minutes before the accident, or even hours in some cases. This is because a bad blow to the head disrupts the formation of new memories. The process takes some time as the memories are transferred from short term to long term memory (each is in a different part of the brain). The interruption of this process means that the short term memories from around the time of the accident never get transferred to long term memory. These memories are lost and never regained, even though there's no damage to the brain. Nearly everyone who suffers a concussion will have some degree of disruption to their memory, even if they only lose a few seconds.

There's another kind of memory loss if someone's in a fugue state, I don't know a lot about this but the memories are lost due to psychological trauma but it's different to PTSD, although it is probably related to it. It's a disassociative disorder that causes temporary amnesia for significant parts of their life and is brought on by psychological trauma or something that reminds them of previous psychological trauma (which is why I think it's related to PTSD). I don't know a lot about this, but in this case the memories aren't lost forever like they are with brain damage, they will come back and sometimes there can be something that makes them suddenly remember their life again.

There are other types of amnesia besides this because the brain is a highly complex organ and can't be summed up in a couple of paragraphs.

I think many writers and other people in the past have confused these different forms of memory loss and this leads to the existence of myths surrounding amnesia and how to get someone's memories back. In a lot of books/films etc the symptoms are like a fugue state, but the cause doesn't fit (like following physical trauma rather than psychological). Memory loss following a severe brain injury is sometimes reversible, if the part of the brain involved isn't actually damaged - though bear in mind neurons when dead won't grow back again. This is a complex branch of medicine and brain surgeons/neurologists/etc (i.e. not me) are a better source of knowledge on the subject.

Rabe · Nov 28, 2017

A couple things. First I want to throw this out as a means to possibly help you out with what you're looking for:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/dissociative-disorders/symptoms-causes/syc-20355215

Second, unlike others, I don't find the premise of a person losing the personal growth and change they went through when they also 'lost' the memories of the experiences that formed the person. We constantly discuss, philosophically and psychologically, that a person is a summation of their experiences. To lose those experiences, then, is to lose the person that was formed because of them. If the experiences that formed the 'nice guy' happened firmly within the amnesiac period, then those experiences will no longer exist for the purpose of personality formation.

For example, without the experience of the four spirits, would Scrooge have reversed his position as a Christmas hating miser? It was because of the experiences of the last two spirits (arguably only the last one) that caused him to "keep Christmas in [his] heart everyday". Now, if he were bonked on the head by a overly large holly bough and forgot that entire Christmas eve, and everything since, would he have remained the Christmassy Scrooge? No, he wouldn't. That Scrooge was formed out of the Christmas eve experience.

Though, I too would be in disbelief if he didn't become confused by the new people in his life expecting him to be a different way.

oneblindmouse · Nov 28, 2017

Fascinating thread!

I suffer from sporadic seizures and amnesia and the doctors and neurologists haven't a clue what triggers them, though they may or may not be a side effect of to a stroke I had fifteen years ago, caused by a hole in my heart. Unlike one of the people above, I never recuperate my memories.

I think it is quite possible for seizures and amnesia to change a person's personality, as living with a condition that can strike at any moment is unnerving and alters one's perception of risk. I now feel that my brain has a mind of its own (as it were).

That's probably not much help towards the discussion, I'm afraid.

LJD · Nov 29, 2017

Orianna2000 said:
Actually, the character is a bit of a drama queen, so I was thinking if he couldn't sneak into the hospital to do electroshock therapy, he would probably call the paramedics and then deliberately electrocute himself. That would be completely in-character for him. Totally stupid, but very in-character.

Um. Electrocuting yourself at home is really nothing like ECT. Does he realize that?

And I agree with MaeZe, having someone administer ECT on themselves is very far-fetched.

Orianna2000 · Dec 1, 2017

Neandermagnon, I like the idea of insufficient blood flow causing a type of amnesia. That could possibly work with the events I've got planned for this novel. However, if I understand correctly, the only fix is brain surgery, which obviously my character can't perform on himself. I'm still stuck on the idea of him trying to cure his amnesia himself, just because he's arrogant and thinks he's smarter than everyone else, and is prone to doing stupid things to prove a point.

As far as psychological amnesia, that won't work. He's been through traumatic events, sure, but nothing severe enough to warrant a fugue state or dissociative disorder. And the precipitating event is him being pushed off the roof of a building.

LJD, my character isn't a doctor, but he would probably do some research first. As I need to, obviously.

At this point, I'm thinking his memory might just come back spontaneously. Maybe he smells something that triggers a memory of something from the period of time he lost. And that memory triggers another, and another, etc. Or I could do the surgery approach, but that would take some rearranging of the plot. Maybe he has amnesia for awhile and then develops a clot or bleed, so they take him to surgery and when he wakes up, he remembers.

New question. This may sound stupid, but if someone who's had amnesia for several weeks suddenly gets their memories back, do they retain the memories of events from after the amnesia occurred? Or is it like a reset, where current memories vanish, replaced by the old memories? Just trying to figure out if this character would remember being a douche to all his friends while he had amnesia, or if he'd have no idea why everyone is so cross with him.

MaeZe · Dec 1, 2017

They would retain all the new memories if the old memories returned.

Orianna2000 · Dec 3, 2017

MaeZe, that's good to know. Thanks!

Head Trauma, Amnesia, Seizures, Etc.

Orianna2000

Freelance Writer

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

Siri Kirpal

Swan in Process

lonestarlibrarian

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MaeZe

AwP_writer

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

LJD

Orianna2000

Freelance Writer

MDSchafer

LJD

Orianna2000

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MaeZe

neandermagnon

Nolite timere, consilium callidum habeo!

Rabe

the living dead

oneblindmouse

The new me

LJD

Orianna2000

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MaeZe

Orianna2000

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