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Do you consider outlining writing?

Caffrey

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For me, sitting in a pub thinking about how my character would sit in a pub and what he would think about sitting in that pub is writing.

I've researched that bit a lot.
 

cbenoi1

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I'm curious for those who believe outlining is valid work but not actual "writing," are you folks the "write every single day" type? And if so, if you're in an outlining phase on something new, what do you write on those days to get your daily word count? Side project? Journal? Stream of consciousness? How-to manuals?
Story treatments.

-cb
 

thethinker42

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I'm curious for those who believe outlining is valid work but not actual "writing," are you folks the "write every single day" type? And if so, if you're in an outlining phase on something new, what do you write on those days to get your daily word count? Side project? Journal? Stream of consciousness? How-to manuals?

Usually I'm working on multiple projects, so I'll do my writing first. Once I've met my quota, I'll work on outlining or whatever. I have days that are *just* editing or outlining, but frequently, outlining is piggy-backed onto writing days.
 

blacbird

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I consider a lot of things to be a part of the writing process: brainstorming, outlining, researching, writing a query, critting other peoples' work, reading about other people's experiences with writing, etc.

The "writing process" isn't the same thing as "writing", to me. Actually doing the hard grunt work of getting words arranged in a coherent fashion that makes a narrative requires a particular kind of focus and energy that differs from what goes into brainstorming, outlining, researching, etc. And generates its own unique new energies that don't follow on the other parts of the "process".

caw
 

MythMonger

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The "writing process" isn't the same thing as "writing", to me. Actually doing the hard grunt work of getting words arranged in a coherent fashion that makes a narrative requires a particular kind of focus and energy that differs from what goes into brainstorming, outlining, researching, etc. And generates its own unique new energies that don't follow on the other parts of the "process".

caw

I and the rest of my original post agree.
 

Laer Carroll

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If we're arguing semantics, I might say that outlining is not "writing" but it is part of being a "writer" - the calling and profession. Including answering those damned emails from your editor asking when you'll have that final draft in!

There's an interesting semi-diary of a pro writer in her book Project Elfhome, a collection of collateral stories in her Elfhome series of five books. Between stories there are some short and some long "drabbles" where she relates her experiences while writing the books and the shorter works. One is how she constructed a timeline to tie the first four books together. They cover several months in the middle of 2031 but were written over a period of several years.
 

ebbrown

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Many writers will tell you that you need to WRITE EVERY DAY in order to be successful. Personally, I don't agree with this staunch position. I think you need to write A LOT, but if you miss a day - even two or three in a row from time to time - I think you're fine as long as you continue to write regularly. But really it depends on what kind of person and writer you are.

But for the sake of my question let's just say you do write every day.

Suppose you are in the outlining phase on a new project. You dedicate, oh let's say three hours sitting at your desk in front of your laptop or at a coffee shop with a notebook or whatever your process is. You spend most of that time brainstorming. Thinking. Maybe doing a bit of research online. Occasionally jotting down a note or a potential plot detail or character quirk or bit of dialogue. Technically you're putting a few words down, but you're not really WRITING writing.

So, if you're a "write every day" person do you consider this brainstorming session to be writing? Or would you still set aside some time to bang out 1000 words of prose (or whatever you've mandated for yourself) on some unrelated project?

I consider it writing, but I still will make a decent word count towards a WIP for the day on top of the outlining/research. I take weekends off, so I try my best to keep to a tight word count on the current WIP unless something crazy is going on in my life. It's a balance, that's for sure.
 

indianroads

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We all have our own way of doing things. Some write by the seat of their pants - others plan in agonizing detail and then write; in the end, what's produced is a novel, novella or short story. The result of the effort is what counts.

My career was as a design engineer. I started out as a draftsman, then became a physical designer, and for the last 5+ years I was a programmer. I also did some project management in there. That background makes me more of a planner than a panster - but again it depends on what I'm writing. I also believe that the process we follow should evolve; we learn from the past and try to improve on every new project.

Different types of stories lend themselves to different processes. My first book (DSOJ) was a very linear story - it was also somewhat autobiographical, so I knew where it was going from the start, and it was written mostly by the seat of my pants. My second novel (LD) was more complex and I was a bit freaked out when I started it and OVER planned - then ended up having to do a ton of editing to make it right. My WIP (untitled) is SciFi, so I had to do a lot of research, but I'm trying to learn from my over planing and kind of go in a different direction. After getting the technical stuff flat, I spent time with each of the characters (they wrote letters to me about their lives, preferences, phobias, hopes, etc). Now I'm working on the plot - but not in detail, just blocking it out. When I finally get to the point where I can't stand holding back any longer, that's when I'll jump in... and I predict that will be pretty soon.

Anyway, all this stuff is necessary for the creation of the novel - so in my mind it's all writing.
 

Al X.

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I do two types of writing: Technical reports (and proposals) for my day job, and fiction. Technical reports are strictly outlined, to the point where the outline serves as the section and subsection headers and one fills in the blanks. I consider the formation of the 'outline' to be writing, since that outline is textually part of the document. Fiction on the other hand, I don't formally outline all though I might throw some notes together to keep characters and sequences in order. I don't consider that writing, any more than I consider drinking at a bar as a form of research for a bar drinking scene to be writing. I might consider it to be part of the writing process, in relevance to the OP's post, but writing is penning the thoughts formed in the bar on paper (or computer.)

I also echo a previous comment that you don't need to write every day to be a good writer. If all you do is write, you probably aren't going to have good stories to tell.
 
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Siri Kirpal

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Outlining is valid work. Getting that outline down may involve a tad bit of writing, but no, I don't count it as wordcount. I don't force myself to WRITE in OLD ENGLISH CAPITAL LETTERS (as my mother used to say), so this really isn't an issue.

Menu prep and vegetable prep are both part of cooking. Same thing. As long as you do the cooking, you've got a meal. As long as you do the writing when your prep work is done, the prep work counts.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Antipode91

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I'm probably the only one, but I find the question kind of silly, and dripping in semantics.

Does it really matter how a "write every day" person views outlining?

If that's not how you go about your writing, then who cares what they think--it doesn't match the very foundation of what works for you.

Write your novel the way that works best for you. If you can't manage to finish a novel, then considering changing up how you do it, thus finding what works best for you.
 

Davy The First

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Is leg stretching, muscle strengthening and a specialised diet, professional running/ swimming, javelin throwing?

Nope. But I can't imagine one without the other...

(If the question is a sort of outlining v pantsering thingy, I aint going there.)

ETA. Re-reading the question (it's late here) 'every day' is not literal, in my book.
However, when you've starting the 'writing' part of a work (the bits readers will read) it is best not too have too many gaps in writing, days wise. Max for me is 3, 4 at a stretch, because I'd lose the 'thread' otherwise.
Re, 'writing' alongside 'process', for sure. New thoughts (and hence process) always come during the writing event.
 
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NealM

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I'm probably the only one, but I find the question kind of silly, and dripping in semantics.

Does it really matter how a "write every day" person views outlining?

If that's not how you go about your writing, then who cares what they think--it doesn't match the very foundation of what works for you.

Write your novel the way that works best for you. If you can't manage to finish a novel, then considering changing up how you do it, thus finding what works best for you.

It matters to me. There's always something to be learned from the process of others.
 

Aggy B.

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I'm curious for those who believe outlining is valid work but not actual "writing," are you folks the "write every single day" type? And if so, if you're in an outlining phase on something new, what do you write on those days to get your daily word count? Side project? Journal? Stream of consciousness? How-to manuals?

I write most days, but not always every day because life. If I'm outlining I usually only work on the thing for about a half hour at a time or I start to get cranky. Also, most of my outlines are only a few paragraphs unless I'm prepping for a major revision in which case I might write a really detailed 10 page outline. But once I work on it for a little bit, I just write on something else or sketch out chapters I'm interested in or a short story or whatever.

And outlining can be a very important part of the process - moreso for some folks than others, of course - but it's not the same skill set as writing the book. You don't have to worry about using the same words too close together or getting emotion on the page or making your dialog sound realistic, but not rambling, etc.

I guess you could say that I think that outlining is "working" on the book, but not "writing" the book. (Just like composing a query letter or a pitch is also "working" on the book, but doesn't involve the actual crafting of the story.)
 

WormHeart

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I'm a strong believer in "Write everyday" but it's not actually how I end up doing it.
I write in splurts - getting into a project, then writing most days, even if I dont meet my daily quota (1000 words), then a slowdown with editing until the story is good to go.
Then a weeks break.
Then a new project.

The "Write 1000 words daily" part keeps me motivated even if I fall short most of the time.
I'm still fairly prolific - 17 titles out in 12 years.

WormHeart
 

blacbird

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I guess you could say that I think that outlining is "working" on the book, but not "writing" the book. (Just like composing a query letter or a pitch is also "working" on the book, but doesn't involve the actual crafting of the story.)

Yes, this exactly, phrased better than I did.

caw
 

Harlequin

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I typically work up from outlines. At what point does fleshing out an outline blur into writing?_? For me it's not a very useful distinction, and so on this occasion agree with Antipode, although I do find it an interesting discussion nonetheless.
 

indianroads

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[...]

I guess you could say that I think that outlining is "working" on the book, but not "writing" the book. (Just like composing a query letter or a pitch is also "working" on the book, but doesn't involve the actual crafting of the story.)

Splitting hairs regarding vocabulary is kinda what a lot of us do - SO... I suggest that making an outline of the plot is crafting the story.
 

Antipode91

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It matters to me. There's always something to be learned from the process of others.

Except, the answer to the question doesn't really provide any useful information.

Everyday Writer #1: No, I don't consider outlining to be considered writing, so you should still stop outlining at times to write something.
Everyday Writer #2: Yes, I consider outlining to be considered writing, so go ahead and don't write while you're outlining.

If the question was, How does outlining improve or hinder writing, then I could see the merit.

However, splitting hairs on the vocabulary of one's preference in writing seems counterproductive of writing itself.

---

But alas, as I said, I'm probably the only one who finds the question silly. xD
 

Spooky

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I consider it sketching, writing to me is going over it in bold, editing it enough can make sections of the whole thing flood in colour but much more common is comprehending there's a couple hundred leaks in it when you try pushing down on the sketch on that particular part and it collapses and you have to erase it, that counts too, it's part of the process so it's unwriting which is part of the system that is writing... maybe!
 

RachelVictor

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It definitely counts as writing. But then again, it depends on how you define writing. For me, writing is the entire process: the brainstorming, the thinking up scenes and the choreography of character movement, the outlining, the actual writing, and the editing & revisions that come after. Even the research. But I'm not someone who holds themselves to the rule of "write every day" or even "achieve a certain word count". I mean heck, sometimes a whole week will pass and I haven't even opened up Word. Since the whole process is "writing", as long as I reach specific milestones by certain dates, then I consider it golden.
 

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I consider outlining writing. As long as it's focused and on point, then it's pretty much valid as writing a chapter or page.
 

Aggy B.

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Splitting hairs regarding vocabulary is kinda what a lot of us do - SO... I suggest that making an outline of the plot is crafting the story.

No. It's crafting the plot. Which is not the same thing as crafting the story. (Because different forms of storytelling. I've written screenplays, graphic novel scripts and novels. How I apply the outline (summary of the plot and character arcs) to the storytelling in each case is different. Because the telling of the story is a craft that is separate from plot. And the format you are telling the story in dictates what sort of craft you employ.) And, I've seen plenty of folks in the SYW who a solid plot idea but still couldn't actually tell a story because the craft was severely lacking. And plenty of folks too who write well, but can't plot their way out of a paper bag.

Outlining and writing the book are certainly related, but they are not the same skill. (And I point this out because I've met folks who spend years on the pre-writing - outlining, character sketches and interviews, drawing maps and researching, etc - only to start to write the book and immediately get stuck because actually writing the damned thing is not the same as what they've spent all their time doing. Or they write something that no one wants to read because the craft of telling a story is a hell of a lot more than just figuring out the various points in a quest.)
 

NealM

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No. It's crafting the plot. Which is not the same thing as crafting the story. (Because different forms of storytelling. I've written screenplays, graphic novel scripts and novels. How I apply the outline (summary of the plot and character arcs) to the storytelling in each case is different. Because the telling of the story is a craft that is separate from plot. And the format you are telling the story in dictates what sort of craft you employ.) And, I've seen plenty of folks in the SYW who a solid plot idea but still couldn't actually tell a story because the craft was severely lacking. And plenty of folks too who write well, but can't plot their way out of a paper bag.

Outlining and writing the book are certainly related, but they are not the same skill. (And I point this out because I've met folks who spend years on the pre-writing - outlining, character sketches and interviews, drawing maps and researching, etc - only to start to write the book and immediately get stuck because actually writing the damned thing is not the same as what they've spent all their time doing. Or they write something that no one wants to read because the craft of telling a story is a hell of a lot more than just figuring out the various points in a quest.)

This is (I think) what I was getting at by posing the original question. I'm a work/craft everyday guy, but not a WRITE everyday guy. And I wonder if that's a disservice to myself. I've been in the outlining stage for weeks now, and in that time I haven't had anything like a serious WRITING session. When I finally do get into "CHAPTER 1 - It was a dark and stormy night..." will my prose be stilted for a little while because I haven't been exercising the ole writing muscle? Should I be trying to bang out prose on something - anything - just to stay sharp while I'm outlining?

As others have pointed out, the answer will be different for everybody depending on your personality, skills, and what works for you. But that's why we ask questions and have conversations, right? To learn from others and maybe pick up a piece of wisdom we can insert into our own process.