Trophy Hunters For African Lions And Elephants Back In Business.

rugcat

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Elephant and lion trophies can be imported from Africa again, in a reversal of an Obama-era policy that prohibited the importation of endangered animals.

http://www.newsweek.com/hunting-african-animals-legal-us-trump-712988

I don't bother to post every Trump administration outrage, because not only is it too exhausting, but after a while it all becomes noise, just one thing after another until it's impossible to concentrate on any particular happening.

But this one is just so gratuitously disgusting I couldn't help myself.

Don Jr and Eric must be celebrating tonight.
 
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Roxxsmom

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It's gotten to where there is not one thing beloved by or important to people who consider themselves to be liberal (or who are labeled as such) that he and his cronies won't try to destroy. I'm pretty sure that a lot of it is done from pure spite.
 
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Brightdreamer

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It's gotten to where there is not one thing beloved by or important to people who consider themselves to be liberal (or who are labeled as such) that he and his cronies won't try to destroy. I'm pretty sure that a lot of it is done from pure spite.

Now, now, it's not just pure spite - there's reinforcing elite entitlement and turning a profit, too...

Seriously, this is just plain disgusting.
 

regdog

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Absolutely abhorrently fucking disgusting. But then what would any of us expect from the Administration which legalized the shooting of hibernating wolf and bear cubs.
 

PastyAlien

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That's right. Make up for that small penis those feelings of inadequacy by killing an endangered animal.



huntingAH.jpg
 

Opty

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Everyone suddenly clutching their pearls over this (as if it's a new issue) apparently don't realize that there was not a full ban on importing elephant trophies into the US prior to this. Obama didn't "ban importing elephant trophies to the US" outright, it was only to a handful of countries (it was actually the FWS and not Obama, anyway).

It was still legal to import them into the US from nearly every other verified country on Earth. https://www.fws.gov/international/permits/by-activity/sport-hunted-trophies.html

The only two countries that this lifted ban applied to were Zimbabwe and Zambia (it's still illegal to import from Tanzania) and it was only in place because the FWS wasn't convinced that legal hunting was beneficial for conservation in those countries. The FWS now believes that these conditions have changed, therefore it is no longer necessary to keep the ban on those two countries. https://www.fws.gov/international/p...pension-of-elephant-sport-hunted-trophies.pdf

If people already cared so much about elephants, then why was there not this amount of anger or more back when the FWS under Obama banned the import only from those two countries (and only temporarily) and not the dozens of other countries they allowed it from? I mean, what else would we expect from an President/Administration who...oh, that's right. We're only angry about it when the other team does it. Neither side of the aisle in Washington has the moral high ground on this issue, and hasn't for decades.

Besides, there are many people, even those on the Left, who view controlled trophy hunting in some circumstances to be beneficial for species conservation and community protection:

“Legal, well-regulated sport hunting as part of a sound management program can benefit certain species by providing incentives to local communities to conserve those species and by putting much-needed revenue back into conservation,” an FWS spokesperson told Slate. “The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has determined that the hunting and management programs for African elephants in Zimbabwe and Zambia will enhance the survival of the species in the wild.”

Hunting is often a part of managed conservation efforts, and it often stirs a specific type of controversy. Unsurprisingly, many decried the new move as callous, and feared the move would facilitate a sharp increase in elephant hunting—legal and illegal alike. Wayne Pacelle, the president and CEO of the Humane Society, wrote a blog post asking what kind of message it sends that “poor Africans who are struggling to survive cannot kill elephants in order to use or sell their parts to make a living, but that it’s just fine for rich Americans to slay the beasts for their tusks to keep as trophies?”

I get it. Elephants are cute and intelligent and I personally find game hunting (even deer hunting for food) to be dumb and unnecessary. But my personal objections do not change facts:

It’s understandable to find the practice of hunting elephants for sport repulsive. It's also understandable to be suspicious of this change given everything happening in politics right now. But these loud missives don’t do justice to the nuanced factors that go into developing and implementing conservation efforts. When you considered the facts on the ground, lifting restrictions on elephant trophy bans isn’t necessarily a bad idea. In fact, it could be a good idea.

It’s true that the opening of trophy imports will probably encourage more legal hunting. That’s actually the point. Hunting is not an inherently bad thing for animal conservation. When hunting is legal and well-regulated, it can actually help keep animal populations in check and prevent them from overwhelming an ecosystem. That’s precisely why hunting white-tailed deer is encouraged during hunting season in much of the U.S.
We don't need more reasons to hate Trump. He gives us enough already. But, this was the FWS, not Trump and killing elephants in dozens of other African and other countries across the world and importing the trophies into the US was ALREADY LEGAL, so using this as another excuse to call him a garbage monster is nothing more than uncritical, blind rage.

But perhaps the main reason this decision rubbed people the wrong way is because Donald Trump’s sons are notorious for their elephant hunting.
Given how many people outraged at this don't seem to know any of the actual facts behind it, this sure seems like an accurate assessment.
 
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Helix

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I am going to clutch my pearls about it. Sure, I'd rather be clutching the balls of some entitled scumbag who thinks it's not only okay to shoot elephants, it's also fun. But there are no endangered species-hunting bastards in the vicinity, nor are there apologists for same. Which is a shame, really, because I have a very strong grip and long nails. So pearls it will have to be.
 

Catherine

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It seems like an oxymoron to say killing the endangered species actually helps it. Yes, in some areas the elephants have been upgraded a category, but their status is tenuous at best.

I also believe it's a false argument to say the only way to get the money to fund the programs which help the animals is to allow hunting of the threatened animals. Money is needed for those programs, but this is not the only way to get it. And in my opinion, it's not the best way to get it.

That said, I'm okay with responsible hunting. I don't hunt, but I'm not a vegetarian either. If I'm going to eat meat, it's better to eat meat from animals not kept in horrendous conditions, like in some industrial farms. This is the reason I buy eggs and meat from the farmers I know. I'm privileged to be able to do this without significant extra cost or inconvenience.

I realize there is some hypocrisy in my thinking; we could get into a whole debate about that. However, I still think allowing the trophy hunting of threatened animals is wrong.
 

ElaineA

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But, this was the FWS, not Trump and killing elephants in dozens of other African and other countries across the world and importing the trophies into the US was ALREADY LEGAL, so using this as another excuse to call him a garbage monster is nothing more than uncritical, blind rage.


Given how many people outraged at this don't seem to know any of the actual facts behind it, this sure seems like an accurate assessment.

*weathers stern lecture*

Well, here's the thing, Opty. For those of us here in the states, we sit here witnessing the dismantling of the building blocks of our laws and norms every. single. day. Those building blocks are both large and small, but we're reaching critical mass, where even a pebble like this feels like an enormous breach.

What we have is a president who is operating like the office is his private sandbox. He's a toddler, driven purely by Self. This particular rule rollback is so clearly and obviously geared toward the wants and desires of his sons, it's an in-your-face act to the American Public. We've all seen the pictures. Donnie and Eric want to bring home their stuffed elephant, dammit, and put it in the golden room!

FWS may have issued the guidance, but you DO know that Trump has appointed the absolute worst people to head our government departments. FWS says it's okie dokie to hunt an endangered species, the EPA head says it's okie dokie to pollute the air moar, the FCC voting to allow media conglomerates to own multiple outlets in one market, including every TV station if they want, the Interior secretary is moving to allow strip mining in our National Parks. Incompetents are in charge of education, health, immigration and our nation's nuclear fuel stockpile. And the list goes on and on and on.

So pardon me if I'm not interested in being lectured. Pardon me if I don't trust the "guidance" of offices being led by people I don't trust. I don't want elephants killed by trophy hunters. I don't want their dead bodies brought into my country to be display pieces for wealthy-f***ing-assholes, and if I want to clutch my pearls (or worse), I'm going to. Loudly.
 

rugcat

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Well, here's the thing, Opty. For those of us here in the states, we sit here witnessing the dismantling of the building blocks of our laws and norms every. single. day. Those building blocks are both large and small, but we're reaching critical mass, where even a pebble like this feels like an enormous breach.
Exactly.

The Interior department, newly led by Ryan Zinkie, has been busy shrinking national monuments, opening up public land to fossil fuel companies, and reversing the ban on lead ammunition from federal lands at the behest of hunters. And there's this:
Safari Club International, a hunting advocacy group that has consistently opposed any restrictions on importing trophies from abroad, broke the news of the rule change a day ahead of the government. Its statement included a detail that the agency omitted: A Fish and Wildlife official made the announcement at a forum the Safari Club’s foundation arm co-hosted in Tanzania, from which elephant trophy imports remain banned. An

Now it is true that the major cause of elephant decline is from ivory poachers. Trophy hunting, although labsolutely disgusting and morally repugnant, is not going to be a deciding factor in elephant conservation. But as a symbolic gesture, it's extremely important.
Iain Douglas-Hamilton, founder and senior scientist at the Nairobi-based Save the Elephants, said in an interview on Thursday that while hunting has fostered conservation in the past, allowing it now could undermine efforts to curb the widespread poaching that underpins the global ivory trade.

Africans, he said, are “being told don’t kill elephants, and rich Americans are being allowed to come and do it. When you go back in history, it did do good, but now is absolutely not the time to be opening up hunting.”
Dogfighting is illegal in the US. I wonder how people in general and those who enjoy the "sport" would react if Russian billionaires we're allowed to pay large sums of money to stage sanctioned dogfights, explaining that the money they gave would go to animal shelters and improve the well-being of dogs in general.

Not to mention that the whole point of banning trophies coming from Zimbabwe specifically is that Zimbabwe has been so thoroughly corrupt that the money paid by trophy hunters makes its way into the pockets of the connected, not those trying to preserve elephants.

And there's this:
Two of the department’s existing wildlife advisory bodies — the Advisory Council on Wildlife Trafficking and the Wildlife and Hunting Heritage Conservation Council — remain suspended as a result of a temporary freeze Zinke imposed earlier this year on all such panels. And the U.S. Task Force on Wildlife Trafficking, which was codified into law last year and is led by Interior as well as the Justice and State departments, has not been active since Trump took office.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...mp-just-reversed-that/?utm_term=.e8a61d8e7261

Opty has not been posting much here lately. The opening line in his post referencing "suddenly clutching their pearls" reminds me how pleasant that has been
 

blacbird

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What we have is a president who is operating like the office is his private sandbox. He's a toddler, driven purely by Self. This particular rule rollback is so clearly and obviously geared toward the wants and desires of his sons, it's an in-your-face act to the American Public. We've all seen the pictures. Donnie and Eric want to bring home their stuffed elephant, dammit, and put it in the golden room!

This, reiterated for emphasis. Trump doesn't really give a rats about anything except that which aggrandizes/benefits his own juvenile ego, and that includes his family. As long as the sons and Ivanka and Jared fawn upon him, they're "incredible, tremendous, tremendous" people. His youngest daughter, however, who doesn't dote upon her father, is on the outside looking in. This particular act was done SOLELY for the benefit of the entertainment of Junior and Eric.

And, of course, it will have some spillover effect on a particular segment of his perceived political "base". Call it the Ted Nugent Effect.

caw

caw
 

Opty

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*weathers stern lecture*

Well, here's the thing, Opty. For those of us here in the states, we sit here witnessing the dismantling of the building blocks of our laws and norms every. single. day. Those building blocks are both large and small, but we're reaching critical mass, where even a pebble like this feels like an enormous breach.
I'm a natural-born American citizen, so I'm witnessing the same thing you are.

This particular rule rollback is so clearly and obviously geared toward the wants and desires of his sons,
Prove it, otherwise that's just a correlation/causation fallacy. This particular rollback has been under consideration since 2015, when the ban went temporarily into place. It was the intention that the ban was not permanent.

My point was that if people were really so concerned about the elephants, this would've been an issue for them all along, and they would've taken Obama to task in 2015 for not banning the importation of elephant hunting trophies PERIOD. He did not do that. He allowed them from dozens of countries. This is not a new issue.

FWS may have issued the guidance, but you DO know that Trump has appointed the absolute worst people to head our government departments.
But you DO know that Trump hasn't appointed anyone to run the FWS yet, don't you? The current acting head of the FWS is Deputy Director Jim Kurth, who has been in that role since Dan Ashe stepped down the day before Trump's inauguration this year. Jim Kurthe was appointed deputy direct in 2015, under Obama. He's also the one who OK'd lifting the ban on these two countries...two countries that US trophy hunters likely aren't going to go to anyway (especially Zimbabwe, given that it's in the middle of a military coup).

FWS says it's okie dokie to hunt an endangered species,
Yes, the Obama-era deputy director said it was okie-dokie. Also, it's important to note that these elephants aren't an endangered species.

Pardon me if I don't trust the "guidance" of offices being led by people I don't trust.
You don't trust Obama appointees?

I don't want elephants killed by trophy hunters. I don't want their dead bodies brought into my country to be display pieces for wealthy-f***ing-assholes, and if I want to clutch my pearls (or worse), I'm going to. Loudly.
I don't want any of that either. As I stated earlier, I think trophy hunting is grotesque and that such hunters are douchebags.

My main point was that it seems that many people are looking for any little thing they can trash Trump for that they will mindlessly latch onto things that they previously didn't seem to care about, and that he has nothing to do with, and blame him for it. And I say "mindlessly" because it's clear from this thread that many people don't actually know the facts/issues before they start attacking. It's more Pavlovian response than critical engagement of the issue.

This is a monumental waste of time and energy. There are so many more important issues that he actually is responsible for fucking up that people should be properly educating themselves on and going after him for. And I know that many people have been doing that for those issues (many are listed here in this thread, even though they have nothing to do with the story in the OP), but this elephant issue is a straw man and a needless distraction. Hate Trump all you want. I'm right there with you. But hate him for things that are actually his fault. Otherwise, his opposition loses credibility.

For example, in addition to some of the ones you listed, the new idiot head of the FCC is about to dismantle net neutrality regulations next month and there doesn't seem to be anyone left to stop him.

That, to me, is an example of something that is a much more important, much more pressing issue than the fact that Obama allowed people to kill and import elephant trophies from X number of countries and now an Obama-era guy has allowed people to kill and import elephant trophies from X+2 number of countries.
 
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blacbird

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My main point was that it seems that many people are looking for any little thing they can trash Trump for that they will mindlessly latch onto things that they previously didn't seem to care about, and that he has nothing to do with, and blame him for it..

Your main point was to deflect attention away from the real main point: This rollback happened on Trump's watch, with his approval. That Trump's any nuances of the actions that preceded it. AND, his two adult sons are infamously proud of their prowess at big game trophy hunting.

If it looks and smells like a duck . . .

caw
 

Brightdreamer

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Hope it's not too good to be true, but at least for the moment, 45 is halting his decision about big game.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...7/11/17/trump-halts-big-game-trophy-decision/

My guess:

1 - The timing of the initial announcement was a deliberate distraction, the M.O. for the whole administration since before Day 1.

2 - This will probably still happen, but quiet-like and under the table while something bigger jams the airwaves and grabs the attention, which is also the M.O. for the administration: constant barrage of things, big and small, true and false (or truish/falsish, a very blurred line these days), chiseling away at institutions and regulations and general national esteem, distracting and draining energy and creating an air of hopelessness as it becomes impossible to tell what's talk and what's action, what's happening now or what's slated for later, let alone whom one can contact or what one can do to protest the thing that might or might not happen or have already happened. If/when someone notices the trophy reversal when it actually goes through in the future (the ban is linked to Obama, and 45's primary drive is destroying anything that man touched - I figure it's pretty much toast if they have any way to toast it, even if it's not toast yet), it'll be shrugged off as "old news" since all the headline-grabbing stuff was "way back" now and untold fresh atrocities will be seen as more pressing.
 

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Given how many people outraged at this don't seem to know any of the actual facts behind it, this sure seems like an accurate assessment.

Opty has left the building. I'm soldering the door shut, and pulling up the drawbridge.
 

ElaineA

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