Are we homo faber or homo sapiens?

Roxxsmom

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Given what our species is doing to other species (including our hominid and now-extinct hominin relatives), and to our planet, maybe Homo horribilis would have been a better name.
 

neandermagnon

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This of course doesn't mean that small breasts are evolutionarily favorable (and I'm sure someone's done studies correlation breast size and milk production and infant survival) but that for whatever reason those populations favored a certain breast size while others favored other sizes. There is much more on play here, such as Founder's Principles, etc., and because humans have the power of reason the random factor is through the roof. This is a greatly simplified example, to be sure.

It's not true that larger breasts are better at making milk. Breast size has little to do with how much milk breasts make. It's uncommon for breasts (of any size) to fail to make enough milk to feed a singleton human infant (or even twins for that matter). If the milk supply is insufficient, then the problem has nothing to do with breast size but could be to do with 1. preexisting medical issues (including hormonal imbalances), 2. insufficient nutrition/hydration of the mother, 3. the baby not latching on properly, not suckling often enough, and similar, which usually is the result of crap advice from medical professionals about breastfeeding and what to do when facing problems.

2 is the most likely explanation in 3rd world countries, and 3 is the most likely explanation in first world countries because male dominance in medicine and marketing strategies of formula milk companies has led to a complete dearth of knowledge of how to support breastfeeding mothers and unfortunately, bad advice does result in mothers being unable to produce enough milk to exclusively breastfeed. 1 happens, but isn't that common, but medical professionals that fail to help mothers to breastfeed will blame 1. when really it's 3. (My advice for women in that situation is to contact La Leche League as they do have good advice and support networks)

**note (cause I know how this topic sometimes go down on the internet): I'm not at all against formula milk (as long as it's a proper, medically approved formula). It's the right choice for many mothers. However, there are also lots of mothers who want to breastfeed full time but end up unable to make enough milk due to shit advice and a total lack of support, and that's why I care about this issue.***

It's possible for most women to make enough milk to exclusively breastfeed twins, as long as their nutrition is adequate and they have good advice. (In the absence of medical/hormonal issues that can impact breastfeeding or make it impossible - again, nothing to do with breast size.)

The limiting factors in producing milk have nothing to do with breast size. Anecdotal evidence is not scientific, but the anecdotal evidence (from midwives etc I've spoke to) is that women with smaller breasts make more milk and find breastfeeding easier. The latter may be because it's easier to latch the baby on. The former is an unscientific claim, but there's no smoke without fire... obviously there are plenty of small-breasted women who produce tons of milk.

Additionally, what size breasts straight or bi men and gay or bi women prefer is far more likely to be cultural than genetic, so the founding principle isn't likely to be a thing in this case. More likely, particular cultures favour various attributes in mates, and these are promoted through media and popular attitudes, and kids/teens learn them and it influences what they find attractive as adults. These change over time within the same ethnic group. For example, in Europe in Renaissance times, curvy, plump women were considered the pinnacle of beauty, but in Europe in the late 20th century, ultra-slim supermodels were considered to be the pinnacle. Cultural ideas changed, but the population hasn't changed significantly. Additionally, even if many men (and gay women, etc) in a particular culture prefer a particular attribute, they're not a hive mind and there's a massive amount of variation in preferences. There is no single definition of beauty in any culture.

Some aspects of human attraction probably are genetic. There's evidence that hip to waist ratio preferences are inborn and not cultural. Similarly, attraction to particular pheromones is likely inborn/genetic. IMO finding breasts (of any particular size) sexy is genetic and the fact that humans have them and they're considered sexy was a big mystery to evolutionary biologists, because it goes directly against what's seen in other mammals. Breasts are not a sign of fertility - swollen/lactating breasts/nipples are a sign that a female mammal is not currently fertile.

There is a new theory that covers why female humans have breasts and hidden ovulation, why humans are bipedal, why humans evolved such tiny canines and why humans are less aggressive than other ape species - all these things are related, and it's to do with male and female hominins pair-bonding and sharing food, and males providing for females while pregnant and lactating, and females choosing males that are less aggressive with smaller canine teeth (they are more likely to form a pair bond and provide for them and their babies) and males choosing females that don't look fertile (less competition with other males) and females mating all round their cycle (males mate with them all the time, making them more likely to be the father when the female ovulates, while other males don't notice that she's become fertile). Bipedalism evolved among all this because it's easier to carry food to share with your partner when you walk on two legs.

There's a lot more detail to this theory and it's fairly new, and most people are only familiar with theories that were dominant in the 60s and 70s - it's worth reading about this theory from scientific sources if you get the chance. It's too complex for me to do it justice in a forum post. The upshot is that breasts are sexy because about 7 million years ago it was a sign of a mate that a male won't have to compete with other males for, and as long as the two of them bond and he gives her food, he has a good chance of fathering her babies and his provision will give their babies a better chance of survival. Things may have changed somewhat over the last 7 million years (i.e. a population where all the females have breasts and all the (straight or bi) males like breasts) but evolution is like that - constantly adapting to a constantly changing set of factors.
 

neandermagnon

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Given what our species is doing to other species (including our hominid and now-extinct hominin relatives), and to our planet, maybe Homo horribilis would have been a better name.

Personally, I don't believe that the majority of humans are bad. The default for humans is reciprocal altruism and helping people in need. Humans have a huge capacity for compassion and empathy, so much so that humans that lack these things are seen as abnormal and abhorrent.

Also, it's not fair to tar all humans with the same brush. Just because industrial nations are totally fucking up the planet, doesn't mean all humans are like that. Native Australians lived in Australia for 60,000 years, their oral tradition goes back at least 15,000 years and they have no recollection of warfare before Europeans came along*. There are numerous other non-industrial cultures that don't screw up the planet or start wars and stuff.

*note that I don't count small scale fighting between individuals or small groups as warfare... I mean one population raising an army with the intent of defeating/eradicating/stealing land, resources etc, from another population. Small scale fighting exists in every population the world over, and many have good systems for minimising it and dealing with people who transgress. The lack of warfare in Native Australians was down to how the different groups in different parts of Australia developed a system for negotiating with each other, rather than fighting. Many cultures including our own have systems of policing and courts etc for dealing with people who do bad things like stealing, attacking people.

The problem is in some aspects of dominant cultures, not human nature. Partly, we're not really equipped to live in the numbers that we currently live in and are shit at governing ourselves. I'm not even going to say that all people in industrial nations are bad. The majority are good people who try to help but aren't very good at fixing the problems our culture and civilisation is causing.

Note: all cultures have their problems, none are perfect. The sheer numbers of people living industrialised lifestyles mean that the size of the problems they're creating as so much bigger. If a remote tribe in the Amazon have a problem with another tribe in the Amazon, it's going to affect just a tiny part of the Amazon and probably not take too much effort to fix. But if all the industrialists are dumping their crap in the sea (and similar destructive behaviours), it's going to fuck up the planet, and there are so many it's hard to make everyone stop doing it.

Also, the human genus has existed for nearly 3 million years and early humans such as the Neandertals are noted for looking after the injured, elderly and vulnerable of their tribes. I would categorise this as a very human behaviour - going back to my first point about humans having a high degree of empathy and compassion, and reciprocal altruism being the default for our species.

Having said all that, our inability to govern ourselves and properly deal with the problems we're causing, and continuation to do things that are threatening our own survival (like still producing loads of CO2), it adds a whole layer of irony to us calling ourselves "Homo sapiens sapiens" Wise, wise man. lol.
 
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neandermagnon

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I suspect you have answered a question I've sometimes wondered. If beauty is unimportant, why are so many businesses devoted to creating and selling beautiful sights, sounds, smells, sensations, and so on? Because beauty brings us back again and again to activities which reinforce important survival skills.

(And so we writers are front and center in human evolution. How's that for a self-serving rationalization?!)

Storytelling and oral tradition would've played a big role in human survival from the time that humans first developed language (which is much earlier than previously thought, probably around 2 million years ago for simple languages and maybe even as early as 1 million years ago for speaking in sentences).

Native Australians have stories that enable them to navigate across Australia... literally a map in the form of a story. As in a story that carries information that increases your chance of survival. There are probably countless examples of this, when you consider how many stories in folklore contain cautionary tales (don't do this it won't end well, don't go into the woods alone at night because there are wolves, etc.)

Our appreciation for beauty in objects, art, crafts etc would definitely have a survival advantage. Art first appeared (that we know of) about 70,000-100,000 years ago in Africa, and so far it's only really associated with our species (though there is some speculation that some European cave paintings may have been made by Neandertals, and there is some evidence emerging that Neandertals may have had decorative objects/art). This emergence of art appears alongside much finer, more complex and more varied stone tools, and marks the emergence of the upper palaeolithic era (though middle palaeolithic art may emerge, see previous asides about Neandertals, whose culture was middle palaeolithic and they never fully adopted upper palaeolithic technology, though they appear to have learned a little from Homo sapiens when Homo sapiens got to Europe). it's likely that both behaviours come from a shift in brain wiring to a more flexible and creative way of thinking. Middle palaeolithic technology requires considerable skill and learned knowledge, but the rate of innovation was very slow, like they were learning from trial and error only. Upper palaeolithic technology (both art and the actual technologies made) show a greater ability to visualise and come up with new ideas, and the rate of development of new tools and technologies suddenly got much faster, and never stopped developing... the technology we have now basically comes from a trajectory that started with the upper palaeolithic and humans just didn't stop developing and innovating. Art may be a by product of this way of thinking, or it may be a thing of sexual selection (i.e. if you go for mates that are creative, your kids will have the right kind of mind to survive by innovating new tools) or it may be both, but the two seem to go together.

By art I mean all the creative arts including storytelling. When humans invented writing many millennia later, written stories is an extension of the storytelling of oral tradition. Same art, different media. Now we have our creative arts on digital media too.
 

neandermagnon

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BTW sorry for making so many posts on this thread, I just love human evolution so so much...





and I type at over 90 words per minute
 
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Beanie5

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One of the fascinating things i find about evolution is the genetics of altruism the default setting seems to be about 95% human populations altruistic 5% selfish self preserving for survival optimization as i remember, but in true lemarkian fashion these can be shifted by short term events due to neuroplasticity.
 
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Laer Carroll

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BTW sorry for making so many posts on this thread, I just love human evolution so so much...
DON'T YOU DARE SLOW DOWN!!!

On breast size: as my wife demonstrated when pregnant with our children, breasts are expandable. She had to go up two cup sizes for over a year of late pregnancy - early infant care. Then reverted to her previous size. So appearance outside bearing years does not signal appearance (and thus function) inside those times.

Altruism, empathy, may seem contra-survival, but this is only the case for individuals in the short run. In the long run, it promotes the survival of individuals. Just as two hands WORKING TOGETHER are a hundred times as effective as one, so two people working together are much more likely to survive harsh experiences. One sleeps while the other stays awake; each look opposite ways and so cover 360 degrees of view; etc.

So it's possible that cell phones might affect the evolution of the human nervous systems across many generations (far more than the technology has been available) if there is a way they allow people with certain genetically determined brain configurations to have more children, who in turn inherit said configuration and experience greater reproductive success and pass it on to their kids and so on.

The problem is, even if this is possible, the technology is currently changing in a much faster timeframe than our ability to pass on genes that would confer differential success in the presence of such technology. Changes in neural wiring is a proximal effect that occurs within the lifetime of the person using the technology, which isn't evolution.

To repeat, cell phones are only one example of a huge class of tools that aid our minds. Among the first that aid MEMORY are scratches on a flat rock. Then scratches on wet clay which when dried gives a semi-permanent record. Ink on parchment, then ink on papyrus. Among the first that aid THINKING, scratches on rock which represent numbers such as vertical lines 1-4, then crossed with a 5[SUP]th[/SUP] horizontal scratch to set off the collection visually as a unit. Then abacuses.

There are immaterial "mind" tools as well, at least as important as the material. They come in two kinds: software and "brainware." Software includes written letters and numbers, brainware calculation systems such as Roman and Arabic numerals and the rules for manipulating them.

The ability to use mind tools is a crucial factor in our survival and thus evolution.
 
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Laer Carroll

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I jokingly commented up-thread that we writers have been at the forefront of evolution. More thought, and I speculate that this is more truth than joke.

Before literacy stories were how much of a culture was passed on, and culture helps us survive. Almost everyone tells stories and consumes them, even if it's in the form of comics or soap operas. Kids learn to tell stories almost as soon as they can talk. As, say, why they were given money for milk and bread and sent to the bodega at the end of the block - and came back only with smears of chocolate ice cream on their clothing and face.

At the water cooler or the cafeteria or the beauty salon or barber shop we tell stories. Stories have a structure; much has been talked about this in AW. They start with a setup: "You'll never guess what happened to me when I went shopping for a new outfit." Next comes several incidents, including helping someone else decide which of several outfits they should buy. They end with a wrapup: "And it turns out she was That Famous Actress and she needed an outfit for her movie premiere!"

The structure is important. It ties all the parts together. The parts reinforce each other, makes them memorable. Years later some seemingly unimportant fact or lesson we learned in an early story may help us survive danger, or get more food. For us or those dear to us.

It strikes me that stories are an important part of our mental life. Without them we have only our own experiences to help us learn wisdom and learn survival skills. With them each of us has many many life experiences to call upon when we need them. Including the experiences of people from far away in time or space or both.

So, yeah, I'm serious. We writers are at the forefront of human evolution. So there, politicians and industrialists. WE are more important than you!
 

neandermagnon

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DON'T YOU DARE SLOW DOWN!!!

Thanks :) Sorry I haven't had much time to reply to this thread in a way that would do it justice. I don't get enough time what with the kids and the day job.

I agree with you about stories, and all other art forms. As things stand with the current level of evidence*, it's this creativity, innovation and out-of-the-box thinking that sets Homo sapiens apart from earlier species of human. But stories as a way to convey information from one generation to the next - that's probably as old as language itself. And I'm certain it's a big driving force in human evolution... the ability to transmit a lot of knowledge from one generation to the next is what sets the human genus apart. Chimps do this a bit as baby chimps learn from their mother how to do stuff like use stones to crack nuts, just by copying. Once humans started talking, a whole lot more knowledge could be passed on. There's evidence that people from 1.8 million years ago cared for the elderly of their tribe... the 1.8 million year old skull of an old woman who'd survived for years without teeth (found in Dmanisi) so someone must have looked after her, possibly even chewing food for her - it's just a suspicion more than a theory, but why would caring for the elderly convey a survival advantage? Because of their knowledge. But that's only going to help if they have a means - language - to pass that knowledge on. Sitting by the fire listening to your grandparents tell you stories could be a tradition that's way, way older than we realise...

*subject to change pending new discoveries... palaeoanthropology is a very fast moving field and recent advances in technology such as those involving DNA or imaging techniques that allow archaeologists to see fossils inside rocks before they're dug up mean that it's moving even faster lately.

ETA: as far as we know, the Dmanisi humans didn't have fire yet (subject to change pending new discoveries, etc). So I was being a bit romantic with the by the fire thing. Listening to grandparents telling stories would have had significant survival advantages throughout the ages.
 
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