My twitter feed is full of semi-woke men

tenuki, I don't want to single you out, but your posts concern me for some of the reasons Silva (and others) cited above. You say you're "terrified" for your son--exactly why? Are you afraid someone will level an allegation against him and he'll lose out on future opportunities? Are you afraid for yourself (that you'll somehow be "outed" as the parent of an abuser? You stated before that when your son made a comment about a girl you felt "mortified"). I hate to say it, but this is the same sort of logic that rape apologists use when they talk about "hurting" guys like Brock Turner--in other words, that the rights, feelings and future of the accused are far more important, and significant, than those of his victim.

And here's the other thing--your feelings, as a male and the parent of a son, don't matter. What matters, and what has to matter to make the conversation change in a meaningful way, is to focus on the victim. While I know I'm stating the obvious, sexual harassment and abuse have real-world consequences for victims that translate into missed opportunities, decline in mental and physical health, loss of income, and lost quality of life. This is why the focus should (and must) shift to the impact on the victim, not the intent, or excuses, of the accused.

hester said:

tenuki, I don't want to single you out, but your posts concern me for some of the reasons Silva (and others) cited above. You say you're "terrified" for your son--exactly why? Are you afraid someone will level an allegation against him and he'll lose out on future opportunities? Are you afraid for yourself (that you'll somehow be "outed" as the parent of an abuser? You stated before that when your son made a comment about a girl you felt "mortified"). I hate to say it, but this is the same sort of logic that rape apologists use when they talk about "hurting" guys like Brock Turner--in other words, that the rights, feelings and future of the accused are far more important, and significant, than those of his victim.

And here's the other thing--your feelings, as a male and the parent of a son, don't matter. What matters, and what has to matter to make the conversation change in a meaningful way, is to focus on the victim. While I know I'm stating the obvious, sexual harassment and abuse have real-world consequences for victims that translate into missed opportunities, decline in mental and physical health, loss of income, and lost quality of life. This is why the focus should (and must) shift to the impact on the victim, not the intent, or excuses, of the accused.

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FWIW, I interpreted the "terrified" comment to be a reflection not of fear for his child, but of another common parenting fear: the idea that no matter how hard we try to mould children into upstanding members of society who treat others with respect and kindness, they may grow up to become part of the problem. The fear that one may fail as a parent.

I do, however, agree that the focus of the discussion should remain on the victims. The conversation of "how best to raise children" already gets plenty of attention, and if there's one common element among all the men who have been accused recently, it's that none of them are spring chickens.

mccardey said:

Let's not feed the trolls on this one. It's too important.

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Yep. I'm about done with derailing and whataboutthemens.

It's about the victims (all of them)
It's about stopping it
It's about not allowing known abusers to continue by moving to the next victim.

JJ Litke said:

What about the other conversations we aren't having: "Now I'm worried that if I kill someone I'm going to be unfairly vilified for it."

Or "Well when I grew up, that's how it was, you just killed people sometimes. Now I'm not sure where the lines are!"

The point is, no one is questioning that murdering people is wrong. No one needs to be convinced that that's a problem.

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This, and what Cornflake said earlier. We do teach, one way or another, that murder is wrong. And people get it--if they kill someone, there are some really serious consequences. And people typically DON'T say, "oh I was raised in <some period of time> when it was fine to just kill people--whaddya mean, that's not okay?"

I was raised earlier than the 1970s (both on the east coast and out west) and even on a ranch it was not okay for men to whip out their junk when they felt like it. It was not okay to masturbate socially, in public (has that ever been okay?) Is it that hard to grasp that women don't like being groped, grinded on, assaulted and so forth? I don't think so.

I have had clients say things like, "it was miscommunication." Uh huh, indeed. And when that was explored, it turned out that the miscommunication was that she wasn't interested but he really wanted it. He absolutely knew it wasn't okay (which he admitted)--he just really wanted to do it.

YES YES YES to helping develop empathy and conscience, and as ElaineA mentioned, getting that message from peers as well.

People can and do change, and I am hopeful this climate will help with that. But those who persist also need to hear THIS IS WRONG. My clients have included men who beat their wives, beat their kids and whatever else, and while yes, many have very sad stories of their own (which do generate a lot of empathy in a clinical setting), they also need to know there are consequences for that behavior. And for some, to be in a place where the consequences are inescapable.

I do not think "pop culture" is pro-murder--maybe some particular segments but not broad pop culture. I don't think most people think it's fine to murder to get what you want. Of course, for some I guess it could feel that way--I had a client come out of a particular prison unit and tell me, "But BG, everyone has an assault charge!" Well, actually, no. Not everyone does. But probably everyone on his unit did (a little like the availability heuristic)

bombergirl69 said:

I was raised earlier than the 1970s (both on the east coast and out west) and even on a ranch it was not okay for men to whip out their junk when they felt like it. It was not okay to masturbate socially, in public (has that ever been okay?)

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It's never been ok. And there are laws that go back to before Europe had writing that say these things are illegal.

The other thing we need to do better about though is:
* Protecting the victims feel safe in letting authorities know something has happened.
* Not covering for the perp. Because when organizations know that something happened (rape, molestation, harrasment, etc.) they need to not cover for the perp, not let that person quietly leave and go to another institution or organization, etc.

I know for a fact that corporations do just that; they removed the person from their job, maybe find a different job, or tell them to leave, but they set the perp up to do it all again; and more often than not, they don't change their behavior. They do it again and again. They are serial criminals/abusers/etc.

Really AW Admin--thanks! I mean that! I was really wondering, has there even been a time when this has been okay? Because reading some posts/listening to some people, it sounds like there was this wonderful golden period when you could just haul it out and go for it...like, when ever! And now, sadly, it's gotten all confusing and so complex we just can't expect the menfolk to keep up! So, helpful to hear that no, never been okay!!!

bombergirl69 said:

Because reading some posts/listening to some people, it sounds like there was this wonderful golden period when you could just haul it out and go for it...like, when ever! And now, sadly, it's gotten all confusing and so complex we just can't expect the menfolk to keep up! So, helpful to hear that no, never been okay!!!

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Pretty sure these dudes are remembering (if not stuck in) those golden years between 1 and 2, when they discover their penises in the first place, and learn how to untape a diaper.

I haven't heard many men making claims that it used to be okay to masturbate in front of people in public or anything, but I have heard the allegation that "people" are just too sensitive these days, that there was a golden age when they could have sexy pictures on their office walls, where they could playfully slap secretaries on the ass, and when they could "flirt" with younger women at work or tell jokes about women (or other underrepresented people) without everyone getting "all bent out of shape." And they lament how today's climate precludes workplace "romances."

Of course, they all have a line they "personally wouldn't cross," and they always define men who are on the other side of that line as the real problem.

"Sure, I maybe stuck my tongue in my administrative assistant's ear during a holiday party, but hey, it was a party, and we were all drunk, and she knew it was all in good fun, right? I wouldn't do that during a board meeting!"

Or, "Sure I kept asking that hot blonde in receiving out, even though she kept telling me she had a boyfriend. They might break up at some point, and anyway, I'm sure she took it as a compliment."

Or, "Sure I 'had sex' with a page in my office after hours. She was kinda shy, and it took me a while to 'convince' her, but she wanted it as much as I did. I'm no rapist. I don't have to be to 'get sex' when women admire me so much."

I'm sure even the ones who do masturbate in front of a particular women at work think they're okay, because they're not like those perverts who do it on the street in front of any woman who walks by.

Barf.

bombergirl69 said:

Really AW Admin--thanks! I mean that! I was really wondering, has there even been a time when this has been okay? Because reading some posts/listening to some people, it sounds like there was this wonderful golden period when you could just haul it out and go for it...like, when ever! And now, sadly, it's gotten all confusing and so complex we just can't expect the menfolk to keep up! So, helpful to hear that no, never been okay!!!

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See post 39, this thread

Roxxsmom said:

I'm sure even the ones who do masturbate in front of a particular women at work think they're okay, because they're not like those perverts who do it on the street in front of any woman who walks by.

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Reminds me of the article where a fervent Trump supporter explained the pussy-grabbing comments didn't bother him because 1. Trump is a man (and presumably, this is what real men do to women) 2. It's not as though he was diddling little boys.

Alessandra Kelley said:

Perhaps few ever really thought it was okay to molest women at will, but many patronized those who peddled the dream that it was.

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This is a thing too.

Also, in my experience, relatively few men who don't abuse and harass women themselves will actually shun, let alone call out, men who do in their circles of friends. I can think of numerous guys who were decent themselves but who hung out with some real assholes. When a female friend explains why she dislikes his friend, these guys will often look thoughtful and say something like,"I guess Tom is pretty sexist, but he's a good guy."

Of course, everyone is a mixed bag, and everyone has faults. But it's sure easier to ignore character flaws that don't impact one personally. I don't cut myself off from every friend and family member who has bigoted views either, but I do tend to avoid situations that will bring the worse out in them, and I will disagree with them and call them on it if I think they're being a jerk.

To be very blunt, I don't care how anxious these men are. I don't care about their agony over past mistakes, or about how hard it is to raise their sons. I care about making the world safer for those who are stalked, assaulted, or abused. Adult men should shut up and listen, and stop making it all about them.