AW Amazon Store

If this site is helpful to you,
Please consider a voluntary subscription to defray ongoing expenses.


 

Welcome to the AbsoluteWrite Water Cooler! Please read The Newbie Guide To Absolute Write

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 76 to 89 of 89

Thread: My twitter feed is full of semi-woke men

  1. #76
    New year, new avatar. hester's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    On the edge.
    Posts
    1,340
    tenuki, I don't want to single you out, but your posts concern me for some of the reasons Silva (and others) cited above. You say you're "terrified" for your son--exactly why? Are you afraid someone will level an allegation against him and he'll lose out on future opportunities? Are you afraid for yourself (that you'll somehow be "outed" as the parent of an abuser? You stated before that when your son made a comment about a girl you felt "mortified"). I hate to say it, but this is the same sort of logic that rape apologists use when they talk about "hurting" guys like Brock Turner--in other words, that the rights, feelings and future of the accused are far more important, and significant, than those of his victim.

    And here's the other thing--your feelings, as a male and the parent of a son, don't matter. What matters, and what has to matter to make the conversation change in a meaningful way, is to focus on the victim. While I know I'm stating the obvious, sexual harassment and abuse have real-world consequences for victims that translate into missed opportunities, decline in mental and physical health, loss of income, and lost quality of life. This is why the focus should (and must) shift to the impact on the victim, not the intent, or excuses, of the accused.

  2. #77
    practical experience, FTW Tazlima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1,963
    Quote Originally Posted by hester View Post
    tenuki, I don't want to single you out, but your posts concern me for some of the reasons Silva (and others) cited above. You say you're "terrified" for your son--exactly why? Are you afraid someone will level an allegation against him and he'll lose out on future opportunities? Are you afraid for yourself (that you'll somehow be "outed" as the parent of an abuser? You stated before that when your son made a comment about a girl you felt "mortified"). I hate to say it, but this is the same sort of logic that rape apologists use when they talk about "hurting" guys like Brock Turner--in other words, that the rights, feelings and future of the accused are far more important, and significant, than those of his victim.

    And here's the other thing--your feelings, as a male and the parent of a son, don't matter. What matters, and what has to matter to make the conversation change in a meaningful way, is to focus on the victim. While I know I'm stating the obvious, sexual harassment and abuse have real-world consequences for victims that translate into missed opportunities, decline in mental and physical health, loss of income, and lost quality of life. This is why the focus should (and must) shift to the impact on the victim, not the intent, or excuses, of the accused.
    FWIW, I interpreted the "terrified" comment to be a reflection not of fear for his child, but of another common parenting fear: the idea that no matter how hard we try to mould children into upstanding members of society who treat others with respect and kindness, they may grow up to become part of the problem. The fear that one may fail as a parent.

    I do, however, agree that the focus of the discussion should remain on the victims. The conversation of "how best to raise children" already gets plenty of attention, and if there's one common element among all the men who have been accused recently, it's that none of them are spring chickens.
    "One of the hardest things to do, I think, is learn to trust your own creativity." - Ambrosia

  3. #78
    please distract me mccardey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Australia.
    Posts
    11,269
    Quote Originally Posted by Tazlima View Post
    FWIW, I interpreted the "terrified" comment to be a reflection not of fear for his child, but of another common parenting fear: the idea that no matter how hard we try to mould children into upstanding members of society who treat others with respect and kindness, they may grow up to become part of the problem. The fear that one may fail as a parent.
    Even if that's right, a man's failure as a parent should not be the thing we should focus on, when his son harasses or molests a woman. It just shouldn't. I'm with JJ Litke on this one - the level of circularity about whether or not women have a right to autonomy, safety and to yell loudly Get off my foot when required is incredible - and more than a little infuriating. Women have rights, but men are deflecting the conversation ENTIRELY BECAUSE women are saying, Hey buster. This is my right and I'm enforcing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazlima View Post
    I do, however, agree that the focus of the discussion should remain on the victims. The conversation of "how best to raise children" already gets plenty of attention, and if there's one common element among all the men who have been accused recently, it's that none of them are spring chickens.
    Exactly. Let's not feed the trolls on this one. It's too important.
    Last edited by mccardey; 11-14-2017 at 11:58 PM.

  4. #79
    Herder of Hamsters AW Admin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    On the Server
    Posts
    13,337
    Quote Originally Posted by mccardey View Post
    Let's not feed the trolls on this one. It's too important.
    Yep. I'm about done with derailing and whataboutthemens.

    It's about the victims (all of them)
    It's about stopping it
    It's about not allowing known abusers to continue by moving to the next victim.

  5. #80
    practical experience, FTW bombergirl69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,462
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ Litke View Post
    What about the other conversations we aren't having: "Now I'm worried that if I kill someone I'm going to be unfairly vilified for it."

    Or "Well when I grew up, that's how it was, you just killed people sometimes. Now I'm not sure where the lines are!"

    The point is, no one is questioning that murdering people is wrong. No one needs to be convinced that that's a problem.
    This, and what Cornflake said earlier. We do teach, one way or another, that murder is wrong. And people get it--if they kill someone, there are some really serious consequences. And people typically DON'T say, "oh I was raised in <some period of time> when it was fine to just kill people--whaddya mean, that's not okay?"

    I was raised earlier than the 1970s (both on the east coast and out west) and even on a ranch it was not okay for men to whip out their junk when they felt like it. It was not okay to masturbate socially, in public (has that ever been okay?) Is it that hard to grasp that women don't like being groped, grinded on, assaulted and so forth? I don't think so.

    I have had clients say things like, "it was miscommunication." Uh huh, indeed. And when that was explored, it turned out that the miscommunication was that she wasn't interested but he really wanted it. He absolutely knew it wasn't okay (which he admitted)--he just really wanted to do it.

    YES YES YES to helping develop empathy and conscience, and as ElaineA mentioned, getting that message from peers as well.

    People can and do change, and I am hopeful this climate will help with that. But those who persist also need to hear THIS IS WRONG. My clients have included men who beat their wives, beat their kids and whatever else, and while yes, many have very sad stories of their own (which do generate a lot of empathy in a clinical setting), they also need to know there are consequences for that behavior. And for some, to be in a place where the consequences are inescapable.

    I do not think "pop culture" is pro-murder--maybe some particular segments but not broad pop culture. I don't think most people think it's fine to murder to get what you want. Of course, for some I guess it could feel that way--I had a client come out of a particular prison unit and tell me, "But BG, everyone has an assault charge!" Well, actually, no. Not everyone does. But probably everyone on his unit did (a little like the availability heuristic)
    The fact that there's a highway to hell and only a stairway to heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers.

  6. #81
    Herder of Hamsters AW Admin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    On the Server
    Posts
    13,337
    Quote Originally Posted by bombergirl69 View Post
    I was raised earlier than the 1970s (both on the east coast and out west) and even on a ranch it was not okay for men to whip out their junk when they felt like it. It was not okay to masturbate socially, in public (has that ever been okay?)
    It's never been ok. And there are laws that go back to before Europe had writing that say these things are illegal.

    The other thing we need to do better about though is:
    * Protecting the victims feel safe in letting authorities know something has happened.
    * Not covering for the perp. Because when organizations know that something happened (rape, molestation, harrasment, etc.) they need to not cover for the perp, not let that person quietly leave and go to another institution or organization, etc.

    I know for a fact that corporations do just that; they removed the person from their job, maybe find a different job, or tell them to leave, but they set the perp up to do it all again; and more often than not, they don't change their behavior. They do it again and again. They are serial criminals/abusers/etc.

  7. #82
    practical experience, FTW bombergirl69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,462
    Really AW Admin--thanks! I mean that! I was really wondering, has there even been a time when this has been okay? Because reading some posts/listening to some people, it sounds like there was this wonderful golden period when you could just haul it out and go for it...like, when ever! And now, sadly, it's gotten all confusing and so complex we just can't expect the menfolk to keep up! So, helpful to hear that no, never been okay!!!
    The fact that there's a highway to hell and only a stairway to heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers.

  8. #83
    All about that action, boss. ElaineA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    The Seattle suburbs
    Posts
    5,373
    Quote Originally Posted by bombergirl69 View Post
    Because reading some posts/listening to some people, it sounds like there was this wonderful golden period when you could just haul it out and go for it...like, when ever! And now, sadly, it's gotten all confusing and so complex we just can't expect the menfolk to keep up! So, helpful to hear that no, never been okay!!!
    Pretty sure these dudes are remembering (if not stuck in) those golden years between 1 and 2, when they discover their penises in the first place, and learn how to untape a diaper.


    Author me: Website | FB | Twitter

    IRL me: Random tweety things @outtamylaine

  9. #84
    Beastly Fido Roxxsmom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Lost in space. And meaning.
    Posts
    15,945
    I haven't heard many men making claims that it used to be okay to masturbate in front of people in public or anything, but I have heard the allegation that "people" are just too sensitive these days, that there was a golden age when they could have sexy pictures on their office walls, where they could playfully slap secretaries on the ass, and when they could "flirt" with younger women at work or tell jokes about women (or other underrepresented people) without everyone getting "all bent out of shape." And they lament how today's climate precludes workplace "romances."

    Of course, they all have a line they "personally wouldn't cross," and they always define men who are on the other side of that line as the real problem.

    "Sure, I maybe stuck my tongue in my administrative assistant's ear during a holiday party, but hey, it was a party, and we were all drunk, and she knew it was all in good fun, right? I wouldn't do that during a board meeting!"

    Or, "Sure I kept asking that hot blonde in receiving out, even though she kept telling me she had a boyfriend. They might break up at some point, and anyway, I'm sure she took it as a compliment."

    Or, "Sure I 'had sex' with a page in my office after hours. She was kinda shy, and it took me a while to 'convince' her, but she wanted it as much as I did. I'm no rapist. I don't have to be to 'get sex' when women admire me so much."

    I'm sure even the ones who do masturbate in front of a particular women at work think they're okay, because they're not like those perverts who do it on the street in front of any woman who walks by.

    Barf.
    Last edited by Roxxsmom; 11-15-2017 at 01:47 AM.
    Please excuse me, I was raised by wolves.

    My twitter - My FB - My blog

  10. #85
    Herder of Hamsters AW Admin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    On the Server
    Posts
    13,337
    Quote Originally Posted by bombergirl69 View Post
    Really AW Admin--thanks! I mean that! I was really wondering, has there even been a time when this has been okay? Because reading some posts/listening to some people, it sounds like there was this wonderful golden period when you could just haul it out and go for it...like, when ever! And now, sadly, it's gotten all confusing and so complex we just can't expect the menfolk to keep up! So, helpful to hear that no, never been okay!!!
    See post 39, this thread

  11. #86
    Sophipygian AW Moderator Alessandra Kelley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    14,516
    Quote Originally Posted by bombergirl69 View Post
    Really AW Admin--thanks! I mean that! I was really wondering, has there even been a time when this has been okay? Because reading some posts/listening to some people, it sounds like there was this wonderful golden period when you could just haul it out and go for it...like, when ever! And now, sadly, it's gotten all confusing and so complex we just can't expect the menfolk to keep up! So, helpful to hear that no, never been okay!!!
    There was, as I recall it, a small current of society throughout much of the twentieth century which tried to pretend that Women’s Liberation meant exactly that.

    It came across as a gleeful call for all men to jump into the pool, as it were, and laid all responsibility onto women for bringing it on themselves for asking to be treated as equal human beings. There was also a piggyback movement of pietistic moralistic sneering at such women which provided plenty of cover for rapists and harassers.

    It may have been only a fantasy, but it was one buoyed by comedians and books and articles and cartoons and movies of the time.

    Perhaps few ever really thought it was okay to molest women at will, but many patronized those who peddled the dream that it was.

  12. #87
    starting over Marian Perera's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Heaven is a place on earth called Toronto.
    Posts
    12,802
    Quote Originally Posted by Roxxsmom View Post
    I'm sure even the ones who do masturbate in front of a particular women at work think they're okay, because they're not like those perverts who do it on the street in front of any woman who walks by.
    Reminds me of the article where a fervent Trump supporter explained the pussy-grabbing comments didn't bother him because 1. Trump is a man (and presumably, this is what real men do to women) 2. It's not as though he was diddling little boys.
    Sleeping Beauty-inspired m/m romance : Editing.

  13. #88
    Beastly Fido Roxxsmom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Lost in space. And meaning.
    Posts
    15,945
    Quote Originally Posted by Alessandra Kelley View Post

    Perhaps few ever really thought it was okay to molest women at will, but many patronized those who peddled the dream that it was.
    This is a thing too.

    Also, in my experience, relatively few men who don't abuse and harass women themselves will actually shun, let alone call out, men who do in their circles of friends. I can think of numerous guys who were decent themselves but who hung out with some real assholes. When a female friend explains why she dislikes his friend, these guys will often look thoughtful and say something like,"I guess Tom is pretty sexist, but he's a good guy."

    Of course, everyone is a mixed bag, and everyone has faults. But it's sure easier to ignore character flaws that don't impact one personally. I don't cut myself off from every friend and family member who has bigoted views either, but I do tend to avoid situations that will bring the worse out in them, and I will disagree with them and call them on it if I think they're being a jerk.
    Last edited by Roxxsmom; 11-15-2017 at 04:06 AM.
    Please excuse me, I was raised by wolves.

    My twitter - My FB - My blog

  14. #89
    I write novels
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    In the resistance
    Posts
    3,985
    To be very blunt, I don't care how anxious these men are. I don't care about their agony over past mistakes, or about how hard it is to raise their sons. I care about making the world safer for those who are stalked, assaulted, or abused. Adult men should shut up and listen, and stop making it all about them.
    Last edited by eqb; 11-15-2017 at 05:58 PM. Reason: typos

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Custom Search