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The hanging from a cliff/ledge trope
- Thread starter blackcat777
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A couple thoughts.
Pulling yourself up with one hand - is really difficult. It’s not a matter of strength itself, but a strength to weight ratio. Wearing armor stretches believability for me... power armor maybe? A lot depends on the surface too... hard granite, soft sandstone, gravel? You’d have to swing your body such that you could get a grip with your other hand.
How he got there? A kick to the knee if he’s on a downhill gravel slope would do it. A blow to the upper body might make him go down on his back and slide off the cliff head first... not much chance of recovery that way.
Pulling yourself up with one hand - is really difficult. It’s not a matter of strength itself, but a strength to weight ratio. Wearing armor stretches believability for me... power armor maybe? A lot depends on the surface too... hard granite, soft sandstone, gravel? You’d have to swing your body such that you could get a grip with your other hand.
How he got there? A kick to the knee if he’s on a downhill gravel slope would do it. A blow to the upper body might make him go down on his back and slide off the cliff head first... not much chance of recovery that way.
Perhaps your hero could snag a limb and half-accidentally swing into a small cove in the side of the cliff where he could wait out the pesky villain before climbing back up. That could also fall in the realm of "overused tropes" though. I'm not sure, as I'm a crime writer and don't generally find myself in these cliff scenarios. Good luck!
EDIT: Or maybe out of dumb luck, some of this armor he's wearing could get snagged in some roots on the side of the cliff. Then he wouldn't have to be using his own energy to hold on.
EDIT: Or maybe out of dumb luck, some of this armor he's wearing could get snagged in some roots on the side of the cliff. Then he wouldn't have to be using his own energy to hold on.
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AIR, the trope isn't so much about killing a person by shoving him/her off a cliff (unless the action takes place in the middle of a cliffless region) but about the 'hanging' bit. A 'cliffhanger ending' isn't about the cliff, it's about a character who is pushed off a cliff at the end of an episode, chapter, or book, and the reader is left 'hanging' until the next chapter/episode/book, whereupon it is revealed that the character has miraculously survived. "With a bound, he sprang out of the pit".
If there's a reason why they're fighting at the top a cliff/ledge, and you character actually dies from the fall, I think you'd be okay.
If there's a reason why they're fighting at the top a cliff/ledge, and you character actually dies from the fall, I think you'd be okay.
What you're expecting your character to do would be called a "muscle up" at the gym, i.e. a pull-up followed by raising your entire torso above the bar. Only highly-trained, elite athletes can do these, e.g gymnasts. However, they are not impossible and go on you tube and you'll be able to find videos of men and women doing these kinds of exercises, including with weights on. One-armed though... I don't know how many people can do this... probably not many but It's possible that someone, somewhere can. It would take a hell of a lot of training though. You tube might have videos of it, if anyone can do that. Weight is a factor. You need a lot of upper body strength relative to your body weight to do these kinds of exercises.
For a highly trained soldier or athlete, male or female, I would not find it implausible that they could muscle-up (2 handed) from some kind of sturdy ledge to save themselves from falling. Cliffs are a bit more precarious because the rocks are crumbly. This may vary by geographical location, but in Britain, cliffs tend to be made of rock that breaks easily and I've had warnings drummed into my head since childhood about not walking too close to the cliff edge in case the rock I'm walking on breaks off. People can die just from standing on a cliff edge.
One-armed muscle ups stretch plausibility a lot though, especially if the character's dressed in full armour at the time. In a futuristic fantasy setting you could mitigate the weight factor by having the armour made of some ultra-light, very strong composite material or something, but for historical fantasy settings, it's going to be heavy. If you go this route you'll have to previously establish that your character is much stronger than even the other highly trained soliders, and then you're in possible Larry-Stu territory. You'd have to write such a character carefully to not end up making him a Larry-Stu.
Having said all that, it would be a lot easier and more plausible for the character to use his legs to get himself up. Legs are way stronger than arms. If he can get even a small foothold on the cliff face and push himself up with a leg, he doesn't need to have super-elite athlete levels of strength. The average reasonably fit person will have strong enough legs and it won't take any more leg strength than going rock climbing.
IMO if you want to have him rescuing himself from dangling from one hand from a cliff (assuming it's a reasonably vertical cliff), first he can observe that it's lucky that the piece of rock he's holding on to looks sturdy - he can't tell for sure and hopes hard that he's right - then he looks for a foot hold and manages to swing his foot into position. This means his weight is distributed between the rock he's gripping on and the foothold (less likely that the rock he's holding on to will break off). Maybe the boots he's wearing have good soles for gripping, which helps him keep the foothold. Using leg strength he pushes himself part way up, giving him leveridge to get his other arm onto the rock he's holding on to. Maybe he finds another foothold so can push with his other leg too. Now he's most of the way up and is able to use both hands to pull himself the rest of the way up. I'd find something along those lines plausible, even in heavy armour. I would assume that your character is stronger and fitter than average just by the fact he's a soldier/warrior.
For a highly trained soldier or athlete, male or female, I would not find it implausible that they could muscle-up (2 handed) from some kind of sturdy ledge to save themselves from falling. Cliffs are a bit more precarious because the rocks are crumbly. This may vary by geographical location, but in Britain, cliffs tend to be made of rock that breaks easily and I've had warnings drummed into my head since childhood about not walking too close to the cliff edge in case the rock I'm walking on breaks off. People can die just from standing on a cliff edge.
One-armed muscle ups stretch plausibility a lot though, especially if the character's dressed in full armour at the time. In a futuristic fantasy setting you could mitigate the weight factor by having the armour made of some ultra-light, very strong composite material or something, but for historical fantasy settings, it's going to be heavy. If you go this route you'll have to previously establish that your character is much stronger than even the other highly trained soliders, and then you're in possible Larry-Stu territory. You'd have to write such a character carefully to not end up making him a Larry-Stu.
Having said all that, it would be a lot easier and more plausible for the character to use his legs to get himself up. Legs are way stronger than arms. If he can get even a small foothold on the cliff face and push himself up with a leg, he doesn't need to have super-elite athlete levels of strength. The average reasonably fit person will have strong enough legs and it won't take any more leg strength than going rock climbing.
IMO if you want to have him rescuing himself from dangling from one hand from a cliff (assuming it's a reasonably vertical cliff), first he can observe that it's lucky that the piece of rock he's holding on to looks sturdy - he can't tell for sure and hopes hard that he's right - then he looks for a foot hold and manages to swing his foot into position. This means his weight is distributed between the rock he's gripping on and the foothold (less likely that the rock he's holding on to will break off). Maybe the boots he's wearing have good soles for gripping, which helps him keep the foothold. Using leg strength he pushes himself part way up, giving him leveridge to get his other arm onto the rock he's holding on to. Maybe he finds another foothold so can push with his other leg too. Now he's most of the way up and is able to use both hands to pull himself the rest of the way up. I'd find something along those lines plausible, even in heavy armour. I would assume that your character is stronger and fitter than average just by the fact he's a soldier/warrior.
historical armour doesn't weigh people down as much as you would think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAzI1UvlQqw
(skip to half way through to see it in heavy armour)
(skip to half way through to see it in heavy armour)
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1) Both characters are strong men - how difficult would it be to pull yourself up if you're hanging by one arm? How long could you hang there for?
You'd be amazed at the kind of strength desperation gives! It's tough to pull yourself up but not beyond the bounds of responsibility. Probably not more than a few minutes, but you could get round that. If he has a small foothold, or a weapon to help out.
2) This is a fantasy, so they'll both be wearing armor - how does the weight of armor impact this scenario? Does the hanging character NEED to be hanging with both hands?
Depends on armor, depends on character. I can't hang by one hand but someone who had any kind of combat or physical training easily could.
3) I'm kind of struggling with a way to get the character who needs to fall in the position of believably hanging from a cliff in the first place. That's somewhat beyond the scope of this post, however.
Climbing to or from somewhere, and slipping? Falling from another surface (such as a bridge or tower)?
You'd be amazed at the kind of strength desperation gives! It's tough to pull yourself up but not beyond the bounds of responsibility. Probably not more than a few minutes, but you could get round that. If he has a small foothold, or a weapon to help out.
2) This is a fantasy, so they'll both be wearing armor - how does the weight of armor impact this scenario? Does the hanging character NEED to be hanging with both hands?
Depends on armor, depends on character. I can't hang by one hand but someone who had any kind of combat or physical training easily could.
3) I'm kind of struggling with a way to get the character who needs to fall in the position of believably hanging from a cliff in the first place. That's somewhat beyond the scope of this post, however.
Climbing to or from somewhere, and slipping? Falling from another surface (such as a bridge or tower)?
My thought is that falling off a cliff can take someone by surprise. Having tried to climb up a gravel mound once that was over thirty-feet high, I experienced the slipping nature and began sliding down the slope. I tried desperately to grasp onto everything and anything I could and every dang branch I grabbed ripped out of the ground making my situation worse by the minute. I wasn't in peril or anything, but I did lose the race to the top. If the character is in danger, my thought is that even a well-trained soldier might become frantic by a sudden fall. I mean c'mon you're on ground one second and then in the air the next. He'd become frantic to regain solid footing, but if he's particularly strong, he may overuse his strength grabbing branches or rocks and end up pulling them from their abode. Eventually he might exhaust his resources and have nothing to grab onto and tumble down the cliff.
Armor and strength I'm not so sure matter as much as how the fall with affect his judgment. It's like in Ecclesiastes 9:11, "Again I saw under the sun the race is not to the swift, not the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all." It's a true saying regardless of religious affiliation. Crap happens and even the best can fail.
As a reader, I'd not have a particular problem with strong heroic characters doing stuff I couldn't do, such as pulling themselves up with one arm while wearing armour.
However, that would mean they *don't* fall. Your scenario is that the villain kills them, so perhaps it would be best if you get your post count up to 50 (it's easy by commenting on other people's stories to get your hand into critiquing), then posting the scene. There's a lot of ways you can make this more or less believable depending on how you write it.
However, that would mean they *don't* fall. Your scenario is that the villain kills them, so perhaps it would be best if you get your post count up to 50 (it's easy by commenting on other people's stories to get your hand into critiquing), then posting the scene. There's a lot of ways you can make this more or less believable depending on how you write it.
Just as a nitpick--fantash can have as much tech as SciFi. Contemporary fantasy by default has the same or better tech as we do, and futuristic fantasy has more.
But yeah pre industrial fantasy can be very limiting.
But yeah pre industrial fantasy can be very limiting.
"Cliff Hanger, he's hanging from a cliiiiff.... And that's why he's called Cliff Hanger!"
(Or am I the only one who's seen PBS's Between the Lions, to have this jingle running through my head?)
Sounds like you have the physics (heavy armor, hard to pull oneself up by one arm) covered. If you're looking for a way to get them to the edge, have you considered shifting the scene to a castle tower or parapet, or maybe a bridge over a chasm? Who or what is Sir Dead Guy fighting to be in a place near a deadly drop in full plate armor (which I wouldn't think would be casual wear - you'd only strap it on if you're expecting battle, save maybe at a tourney or parade), and did he consider Sir Dropsalot an ally or an enemy? If the latter, it's hard to see an expectation of help, unless Sir Dead Guy's incurably naive - as Mufasa arguably was, knowing how malevolent Scar was and still being shocked at the betrayal. If the former, it's conceivable that they both get backed up to the edge by another enemy - or an ally of Dropsalot posing as a mutual enemy. Then the slip, and Dropsalot either reveals the whole scene as a setup, as Scar does, or sees an opportunity and decides to assist Fate. (The latter could make for some nice, intense dialog - it's unclear to the audience what will happen, maybe Dropsalot will come through, until Dead Guy says the wrong thing and Dropsalot lets him go.)
(Or am I the only one who's seen PBS's Between the Lions, to have this jingle running through my head?)
Sounds like you have the physics (heavy armor, hard to pull oneself up by one arm) covered. If you're looking for a way to get them to the edge, have you considered shifting the scene to a castle tower or parapet, or maybe a bridge over a chasm? Who or what is Sir Dead Guy fighting to be in a place near a deadly drop in full plate armor (which I wouldn't think would be casual wear - you'd only strap it on if you're expecting battle, save maybe at a tourney or parade), and did he consider Sir Dropsalot an ally or an enemy? If the latter, it's hard to see an expectation of help, unless Sir Dead Guy's incurably naive - as Mufasa arguably was, knowing how malevolent Scar was and still being shocked at the betrayal. If the former, it's conceivable that they both get backed up to the edge by another enemy - or an ally of Dropsalot posing as a mutual enemy. Then the slip, and Dropsalot either reveals the whole scene as a setup, as Scar does, or sees an opportunity and decides to assist Fate. (The latter could make for some nice, intense dialog - it's unclear to the audience what will happen, maybe Dropsalot will come through, until Dead Guy says the wrong thing and Dropsalot lets him go.)
I did think the weight of the armor would be a problem, but how about the texture of it? Wouldn't it be slick? At least slicker than cloth or skin? IF he got an arm up on the ledge (or whatever), wouldn't the armor tend to slide off?